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Potential Chara upgrade

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Rewatching the genocide route ending, I feel a lot of this issue here comes from a bit of ambiguity.

It is repeatedly implied that there are countless possible timelines that exist and can exist based on the slightest variations.

During the fight with Sans, he states that multiple timelines have been stopping and starting, along with jumping all over the place before ceasing to exist. This is your doing, as you are the one playing around with timelines and then erasing them to move onto a new one. He also implies that Chara will consume timeline after timeline until there is nothing left.

However, at the end of the game, Chara says, "Let us erase this pointless world, and move onto the next" (3:37). They do not use the word "timeline". Once Chara obliterates the "world" (with your consent or against your will), there is nothing left but an empty void. It is unlikely this would have been the case if Chara had only gotten rid of one timeline, as the game shows that once a timeline is erased, the player simply moves on to another one.

In order to actually return to the game, the player must offer their soul to Chara, who will then restore the world, but will infect every timeline (9:51). This can be seen when, in all subsequent endings, Chara will make an appearance, showing that they now have control of you. No timeline is free of Chara, after this.

This does lead to the possibility that, in the genocide ending, Chara did indeed get rid of every timeline, and the next "world" they were referring to was another reality/RPG. Undertale makes it very clear that Chara is connected to the player's soul, regardless of where they go, and Chara reveals that they are "the demon who appears when people call its name" that exists as the killing intent of every protagonist in, well...every RPG in which you choose to kill.

It is not exactly far fetched for this to be the case, as Omega Flowey does something similar. While I listed him as "at least 2-C" to be conservative, it is likely he's much higher than that. At the start of the genocide route, Flowey reveals that obtaining the six human souls (which are what turn him into Omega Flowey) would make him stronger than Chara. When he does this in the neutral ending, he crashes your game. When you return, just as when you return after Chara destroys the world, you find yourself in a black void. However, it is made clear that Flowey is the one who brought you back, as he just wanted to torture you and he is in complete control, unlike Chara, who wanted your soul. He even makes this clear by destroying the timeline you had previously been in right in front of you.

Then we get to Asriel. Despite having the least impressive feats of the three, Asriel is easily the most powerful (Omega Flowey is directly stated to be superior to Chara, and Asriel is Omega Flowey with literally infinitely greater power). Asriel, while using only the tiniest fraction of his power, is infinitely superior to Omega Flowey. During the battle, he also destroys the current timeline. However, when he does so, you aren't left in an empty void as you were with Flowey and Chara. This strengthens the idea that Chara and Flowey didn't just destroy a single timeline, but literally everything. Also, during the battle, the words "The world is ending" are used, "world" being the same way Chara potentially described all existence, collectively.

The world only becomes an empty void when Asriel begins to use his full power, which is infinitely beyond his previous state, which as I already said, is infinitely beyond Chara and Flowey. At this point, Frisk finds themself not only unable to access prior timelines, but also unable to create any new ones, meaning it is indeed likely this empty void symbolizes the end of everything.

tl;dr

After reviewing info, yes, the characters are likely much higher than I previously placed them (or at the absolute least, Asriel is).
 
What does this mean for the Annoying Dog? :^) Because from what it looks like, that dog survive the end of an even greater everything than Asriel's.

From what I get, it is possible that Chara destroy everything, which would scale to everything. Well, still ima ask, is there any statement for infinite timeline in Undertale?
 
while I may be someone who holds positive bias for Undertale, I have to say that your explanation is very solid, additionally if this is true then I believe that it would affect the stats of Omega flowey, Chara, UtU, Sans, Frisk, and Asriel since they all have clear relations to this
 
Anything which the tier ends in -verse. The God Tier of Undertale pretty much. Still of the opinion that Sans' DC should at least partially scales from this, since he still manages to scratch an Universal+ being.
 
SaikouTouhou said:
Well, still ima ask, is there any statement for infinite timeline in Undertale?
Funny enough, from Flowey. This is the person who lived through so many timelines that he knew exactly what every single person would do if a certain action was performed or a certain thing was said. You also have to keep in mind that this is only one Flowey (as resetting a timeline also resets him), and there are countless other Floweys who have gone through countless other timelines. Remember, as we learned, timelines can be created and destroyed, and changes can lead to other timelines. To counter the idea that there may only be one timeline (which some people seem to think due to Asriel using the singular form of the word), Sans explicitly mentions multiple timelines being affected, as he is aware of the existence of alternate timelines as well as being able to measure their activity (how he does so is as of yet unknown).
 
it seems then that Frisk's soul is far more durable than we first thought as well. It was able to completely survive taking an attack that destroyed infinite timelines head on at point blank. this also makes the fact that Frisk was able to hold on for as long as they did all the more impressive.
 
I'm... not really sure on this. It seems to me that "all of existance" isn't very well defined in comparison to a timeline.
 
should those that face chara and chara get a likely higher for their speed? I say this because we imagined a pretty low scale for the genocide only characters since their was no Omega Flowey or hyper goner to go off of, but now with how determination raises everything thinking the speed at high determination would be the same speed as this new "relativistic determination" seems improbable. also I'm pretty sure sans knows of other timelines through some involvement with Gaster as he says "our readings" when revealing his knowledge. this would also work with the fact that Gaster was clearly doing something with this level of stuff as a misshap scattered him into the fabric of reality ie. the game files
 
ThePerpetual said:
I'm... not really sure on this. It seems to me that "all of existance" isn't very well defined in comparison to a timeline.
Isn't that only assumed in fictions which only show one universe/timeline and not multiple, whereas Undertale explicitly has many? Plus, as I said, Asriel ends a timeline and there's not an empty void.
 
ThePerpetual said:
I'm... not really sure on this. It seems to me that "all of existance" isn't very well defined in comparison to a timeline.

well, we're seeing it in a reasoning somewhat along the lines of. "this is a verse with pretty solid evidence of possibly infinite timelines existing, which would ultimately involve them in 'all of existance'". as well as written solely by someone who was directly involved with another verse that doubtlessly uses this concept, meaning, he should be pretty familliar with it. thats not saying that he would use it because Hussy has used it but rather the idea seems likely and is in his syntex. "him" of course refering to Foby Fox
 
I think that, if I saw this myself, I'd be able to better judge. As someone who's not played a Genocide Run yet, I'm just left in the dust, scratching my head.
 
Well, Chara is part of the/every player, as they represent a player's will to kill for stats, do whatever they feel like, and assume they're above consequences. It's possible Frisk is similar, and is just another aspect of the player on the opposite end of the spectrum.
 
ThePerpetual said:
I think that, if I saw this myself, I'd be able to better judge. As someone who's not played a Genocide Run yet, I'm just left in the dust, scratching my head.
Not sure if you saw since I edited it, but I added some genocide mode links in my (long ass) message.
 
SaikouTouhou said:
Still wondering where the player (Not Frisk or Chara) fits in all that mess.

a possible interpretation is that the "player" is the conciouse amalgamation of both Frisk and Chara combined, with you more directly controlling Frisk and percieving via Chara, as Frisk is the avatar and Chara is the text box(this is shown by the text box being second person unless Chara is becoming more in control.). basically from there it's the strugle to see what this sudden entity becomes, does Frisk become the one in charge and use Chara, or does Chara become the one in charge and use Frisk. or do they just stay undecided and you get something neutral. this also might explain why you stop following the characters after they leave the underground as their personallity has settled down, but the player is still very much there and insist that the composite should revert back and work out their personallity again, accept if Chara becomes dominant they will make sure that you going back and mixing the personalities will still end with Chara in control. but that's just sorta a personal head cannon
 
Well Sans do refer to the player too, called us an anomaly, and Chara outright murder the anomaly in the Genocide ending, pretty sure Firsk, Chara and The Player are 3 seperates being.
 
So question, if the upgrades go through, then will Frisk have 2-A DC ad 1-C Durability? After all, he did tank Asriel's strongest attack with max determination (albeit at .0000000000001 HP or whatever), but his actual strength was nowhere near Asriel's. I know it makes little sense for his durability to be infinitely more than his DC, but...
 
SaikouTouhou said:
Well Sans do refer to the player too, called us an anomaly, and Chara outright murder the anomaly in the Genocide ending, pretty sure Firsk, Chara and The Player are 3 seperates being.
Doesn't Chara say "My Determination was not mine, but yours"? It's possible they were addressing Frisk and the Player at the same time, and considering Chara is sort of "part of the player" it's possible Frisk is, as well.
 
Pikachu942 said:
So question, if the upgrades go through, then will Frisk have 2-A DC ad 1-C Durability? After all, he did tank Asriel's strongest attack with max determination (albeit at .0000000000001 HP or whatever), but his actual strength was nowhere near Asriel's. I know it makes little sense for his durability to be infinitely more than his DC, but...
Presumably yes. Frisk is a brick wall. A powerful brick wall, but a brick wall, nonetheless.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
Pikachu942 said:
So question, if the upgrades go through, then will Frisk have 2-A DC ad 1-C Durability? After all, he did tank Asriel's strongest attack with max determination (albeit at .0000000000001 HP or whatever), but his actual strength was nowhere near Asriel's. I know it makes little sense for his durability to be infinitely more than his DC, but...
Presumably yes. Frisk is a brick wall. A powerful brick wall, but a brick wall, nonetheless.

not having any determination used for attacking means way more can go to defending
 
Well Frisk just seems to be a husk for peeps like Chara and the Player to possess, since I doubt he is carried over to every other world for Chara to destroy, it's only the player that seems to makes Frisk comes back.
 
Pikachu942 said:
Well I guess the Bill Cipher threads aren't that close anymore. Sorry Billy ;p
If more people check my reasoning and it goes through.

That said, with maximum potential Bill and Chara (post possible upgrades), it'd still be pretty close.
 
SaikouTouhou said:
Well Frisk just seems to be a husk for peeps like Chara and the Player to possess, since I doubt he is carried over to every other world for Chara to destroy, it's only the player that seems to makes Frisk comes back.
so player represents the determination of Chara and Frisk combined and at ends
 
SaikouTouhou said:
Well Frisk just seems to be a husk for peeps like Chara and the Player to possess, since I doubt he is carried over to every other world for Chara to destroy, it's only the player that seems to makes Frisk comes back.
I'm almost positive Frisk is their own person, it's just that Chara and the Player basically hijack them. There's a reason Frisk only reveals their name in the pacifist ending, and that's likely because that's their true personality; merciful and kind.
 
I just kind of imagine Chara and The Player ditching Frisk to go on a romantic murder road trip accross the Multiverse.

Ah well, getting back to topic, in the end result, we would have High 2-A Chara, Flowey, Undyne and Frisk, with Low 1-C Asriel?
 
SaikouTouhou said:
I just kind of imagine Chara and The Player ditching Frisk to go on a romantic murder road trip accross the Multiverse.
Ah well, getting back to topic, in the end result, we would have High 2-A Chara, Flowey, Undyne and Frisk, with Low 1-C Asriel?
and quite possibly amped up stuff for sans since he was dealing with a far more powerful opponent than we thought

also Chara ends up ditching the player as well
 
Chara would probably be either 2-B or 2-A, with Flowey at 2-A/High 2-A (as he was unfathomably stronger than Chara and Frisk. Asriel would presumably be Low 1-C, as using only a fraction of his power, he was literally infinitely stronger than Flowey, and far, far stronger than that, at full power.
 
And then Full 1-C Annoying Dog-*shot*

So, does that means that Lord English can get defeated for real now.
 
SaikouTouhou said:
And then Full 1-C Annoying Dog-*shot*
So, does that means that Lord English can get defeated for real now.
Nah, English is still full on Low 1-B.

...Well again, except for Annoying Dog and Gaster, but they're impossible to gauge properly (one is a f$&@ing dog and the other doesn't even exist).
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
The Everlasting said:
Nah, Lord English is still Low 1-B.
By the way Everlasting, you have an opinion on the (stupidly drawn out) potential upgrade thing I wrote?
Meh, I kinda doubt Flowey is High 2-A (As while he's unfathomably more powerful than Chara, he's not 5-Dimensional), same with Asriel being Low 1-C (Though I could more easily imagine him being High 2-A).

Really I just skimmed through that waaaaaaayyyyy too much, what's the less TL;DR version of it?

And a random question, do you actually think Gaster could/would get a profile?
 
Aw, forgot that he is 1-B, not 1-C.

Well tbh, I doubt Gaster is that much high, he seems to be only a threat to normal persons, his only real big thing is being unable to be harmed and stuff.
 
The Everlasting said:
Meh, I kinda doubt Flowey is High 2-A (As while he's unfathomably more powerful than Chara, he's not 5-Dimensional), same with Asriel being Low 1-C (Though I could more easily imagine him being High 2-A).

Really I just skimmed through that waaaaaaayyyyy too much, what's the less TL;DR version of it?

And a random question, do you actually think Gaster could/would get a profile?
You don't need to be 5-D to be High 2-A, just have a 5-D level of power/affect infinite universes. That said, being 5-D does automatically make you High 2-A.

Hmm...that's hard to do without the videos and such.

Possibly, but he'd be almost all "unknown" save for a few powers.
 
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