Potential Chara upgrade

[Squid_peanut]

Gaster can't really do that much, it seems more like theres barely anything left of him in reality and what is is pretty tattered

 

[The_Everlasting]

Meh, I kinda doubt Flowey is High 2-A (As while he's unfathomably more powerful than Chara, he's not 5-Dimensional), same with Asriel being Low 1-C (Though I could more easily imagine him being High 2-A).

Really I just skimmed through that waaaaaaayyyyy too much, what's the less TL;DR version of it?

And a random question, do you actually think Gaster could/would get a profile?

You don't need to be 5-D to be High 2-A, just have a 5-D level of power/affect infinite universes. That said, being 5-D does automatically make you High 2-A.
Hmm...that's hard to do without the videos and such.

Possibly, but he'd be almost all "unknown" save for a few powers.

I thought High 2-A was reserved for 5-D beings (Since if the being is 2-A, chances are they can destoy infinite universes anyway).

Just give me all that's necessary.

We've had more vague profiles on this wiki, Gaster wouldn't be anything new.

And as has been mentioned before, shouldn't Sans get at least some scaling from Chara since he's able to scratch them? Yes, it's 1 damage, but that's still damage.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Gaster can't really do that much, it seems more like theres barely anything left of him in reality and what is is pretty tattered

Well that's the thing. He's like...the ultimate brick wall. He can't really do...anything, because he doesn't exist, yet he can't be affected by much, due to both existing and not existing at the same time.

Though we should drop the conversation. It's rude to talk about someone who's listening.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well Gaster does have a thing for deleting peeps out of existence, like Chara themselves if they name themselves Gaster.

 

[ThePerpetual]

If "all of reality" is restricted to four dimensions only, and Chara destorys all of that in one go, that's 2-A, do I understand correct?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Everlasting

Technically it is (I think), but I more just meant at the higher end of 2-A, though it means the same thing in most cases, because being infinitely stronger than someone at the highest end of 2-A is Low 1-C.

Sans mentions numerous timelines, as does Flowey. The Player/Frisk has been tampering with and erasing these timelines, so it's possible Sans meant THEY would destroy all timelines. When Chara attacks at the end of a genocide route, they don't use the word "timeline", but instead "world". It's likely this collectively refers to all existence, as Flowey also does this, and when fighting Asriel, it says "the world is ending", even though he doesn't destroy the timeline you're currently in until halfway through the battle. The blank void you fight Omega Flowey and full power Asriel in is likely non-existence/absent of all timelines and not just outside of one. Chara had the potential to do this, Flowey was unfathomably stronger than them, and Asriel at a fraction of full power was infinitely stronger than Flowey.

True, true. Iwaskindaplanningonmakinghimanyway.

I suppose, though it seems like high levels of durability negation, to me.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

If "all of reality" is restricted to four dimensions only, and Chara destorys all of that in one go, that's 2-A, do I understand correct?

If it is anywhere from 10^500 to infinite 4-D continuums constituting "all of reality", then yes.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Well Gaster does have a thing for deleting peeps out of existence, like Chara themselves if they name themselves Gaster.

Forgot about that.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

The scary parts it that it seems that anything related too closely to Gaster gets deleted, would that mean that anything that knows about him enough to be considred in a fight would disappear too?

 

[Squid_peanut]

Well Gaster does have a thing for deleting peeps out of existence, like Chara themselves if they name themselves Gaster.

Forgot about that.

so should "deletes anyone sharing his name" be added as a possible power?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

so should "deletes anyone sharing his name" be added as a possible power?

Perhaps "deletes anything that shares too much of a relation to him"?

 

[SpecN]

I'm with The Everlasting on this one. Not sure about High 2-A, but definitely, definitely, no-one in Undertale is Tier 1 as that is only for Hyper-dimensional entities. (6-D+)

And after running through that game many times now, I'm pretty sure no-one in Undertale is even 5-D. High 2-A seems to be the highest they could reach.

Also, @Azathoth can I see that statement where it is said there are infinite time-lines? I need it for reasons.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Also, @Azathoth can I see that statement where it is said there are infinite time-lines? I need it for reasons.

It's multiple quotes from Flowey, and like I said, it's usually "countless" as opposed to "infinite", but let me see if I can find the exact part, again.

 

[SpecN]

Much obliged.

Also, just "countless"? If so, then we shouldn't assume it is infinite at all as the definition of countless is "Too many to be counted.". Remember, low-ends are safer.

 

[Squid_peanut]

i've seen sources that have classified countless as a possible synonym for infinite

 

[SpecN]

"Possible", is the keyword. "Countless" has many synoynms, why should we assume that Toby specifically meant that? Again, we have to play it safe here and not assume stuff. It seems 2-B is a good spot for Asriel, IMO.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

"Countless" and "every possible outcome" and such. There's also the fact that, according to Flowey, he's lived out literally every possible outcome over an unknown period of time (so many times that he knows exactly what everyone who isn't Frisk will do), and all of these are individual timelines. Hell, he apparently went through hundreds of timelines alone just in attempts to get Asgore to reveal the souls. However, yeah, it might be safer to have Chara at 2-B, but I don't have many doubts in OF being 2-A (what with just how much stronger he is, and all).

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

It seems 2-B is a good spot for Asriel, IMO.

I'd still argue 2-A for Asriel, at the least. Being infinitely stronger than even a Low 2-C (which Chara is at the absolute worst) is 2-A.

 

[Squid_peanut]

well given that he is willing to fill the screen fith nines I sort of doubt that he wouldn't use countless unless it really was un countable

 

[The_Everlasting]

Are we sure he's literally infinitely stronger? I'm pretty sure his attack and defense being infinite is not to be taken literally, as you don't die in one hit no matter what Asriel tries.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Yeah but you always get insane boost to go with final bosses, and IIRC stats are real canon things.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Are we sure he's literally infinitely stronger? I'm pretty sure his attack and defense being infinite is not to be taken literally, as you don't die in one hit no matter what Asriel tries.

Infinite is relative. Frisk's defense is on a similar level of said infinity to Asriel's attack, whereas Chara is not. Frisk's determination is that strong. For instance, Bill has literally infinite power on the 3-D plane of existence, but this doesn't mean it's infinite when compared to another being of his level. There's also the fact that Asriel is constantly battling incredibly conflicting feelings about killing you, as well.

 

[Squid_peanut]

Are we sure he's literally infinitely stronger? I'm pretty sure his attack and defense being infinite is not to be taken literally, as you don't die in one hit no matter what Asriel tries.

as said before both in this thread and others, there is no reason to doubt Frisks analysises being literal, and Frisk's durability is above their tier via them pretty much having all of their determination going to not dieing

 

[SpecN]

2-B Chara and 2-A Asriel.....hmmm....OK, I can settle for that, albeit a bit reluctantly. At least it's much safer than saying they can destroy infinite universes.

Oh! And one last thing. How are we so sure that "time-line" refers to a universe rather than a planet? Or the underground for that matter? Like in DC where several time-lines are reperensted as many alternate Earths.

Not saying you're wrong, I just wanna know what we are we going off of here.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

2-B Chara and 2-A Asriel.....hmmm....OK, I can settle for that, albeit a bit reluctantly. At least it's much safer than saying they can destroy infinite universes.
Oh! And one last thing. How are we so sure that "time-line" refers to a universe rather than a planet? Or the underground for that matter? Like in DC where several time-lines are reperensted as many alternate Earths.

Not saying you're wrong, I just wanna know what we are we going off of here.

Timelines are explicitly space-time continuums (or variations of them), and I've never seen a timeline secluded to a single area of a universe. Yes, there are alternate Earths in DC, but there are (or were. can't remember where it went after Crisis) universes to go along with said Earths.

 

[Squid_peanut]

2-B Chara and 2-A Asriel.....hmmm....OK, I can settle for that, albeit a bit reluctantly. At least it's much safer than saying they can destroy infinite universes.
Oh! And one last thing. How are we so sure that "time-line" refers to a universe rather than a planet? Or the underground for that matter? Like in DC where several time-lines are reperensted as many alternate Earths.

Not saying you're wrong, I just wanna know what we are we going off of here.

because time being religated to beneath a mountain is both not normal and never suspected in universe

 

[Promestein]

I'm good with all of these new developments. 2-B Chara, 2-A OF and Frisk, and Low 1-C Asriel.

The underground is not a cat box.

 

[SpecN]

Not secluded or relegated, rather, it is a possible set of events to occur in the underground or the planet. Maybe that is what is being destroyed. Alternate versions of the underground or Earth.

So in each alternate universe Chara travels to, she destroys the underground or Earth of that universe, you get me?

@Azathoth is there a definition for that? I couldn't find a source that says a timeline could refer to an entire space-time continuum so far.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The underground is not a cat box.

I was incredibly confused with this statement until my Umineko memories came flooding back.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Azathoth is there a definition for that? I couldn't find a source that says a timeline could refer to an entire space-time continuum so far.

In fiction, an alternate timeline is almost always an alternate version of a universe in which certain events differ from the main universe, usually revolving around the primary characters of the story.

 

[SpecN]

So aside from the term "time-line" usually being used to represent alternate versions of a universe in fiction, we have nothing to go off of? I must say, that does not sit well with me, so we're just assuming they're universes? This is what happens when you leave the players in the dark about several details in the game, I suppose. Wish we could ask Toby. Any of you know how to contact him?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

So aside from the term "time-line" usually being used to represent alternate versions of a universe in fiction, we have nothing to go off of?

That's always what it is, though. We have no reason to assume it's not. We don't assume Future Trunks' timeline was only an alternate Earth because we only saw Earth.

 

[Promestein]

So aside from the term "time-line" usually being used to represent alternate versions of a universe in fiction, we have nothing to go off of? I must say, that does not sit well with me, so we're just assuming they're universes? This is what happens when you leave the players in the dark about several details in the game, I suppose. Wish we could ask Toby. Any of you know how to contact him?

Considering how Toby is, and also the fact that he's kind of popular now, I sincerely doubt he has any interest answering these kinds of questions.

We have no reason to believe they're anything but universes.

 

[SpecN]

Haven't you heard of that theory that says the universe is so expansive there could be copies of Earth and all of us? I think it was on Vsauce.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

There's also the fact that, in context, timeline is synonymous with this.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Haven't you heard of that theory that says the universe is so expansive there could be copies of Earth and all of us? I think it was on Vsauce.

In that theory, all Earths reside in the same space-time continuum. An alternate timeline is, by definition, not the same space-time continuum.

 

[Squid_peanut]

unless stated otherwise we assume what is viewed as the norm because if it wasn't, it would need to be elaborated on to some extent at least

 

[Promestein]

I feel like we're getting sidetracked downplaying things that were meant to be apparent. There's no reason to doubt that the game meant timelines as in a whole space-time continuum.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I feel like we're getting sidetracked downplaying things that were meant to be apparent. There's no reason to doubt that the game meant timelines as in a whole space-time continuum.

Especially considering the fact that, if timelines were just alternate Earths or even alternate Undergrounds, you wouldn't be in a blank void when they all got destroyed.

Also, remember that resetting AFTER you get to the surface still resets all events, so it's not something limited to the underground.

 

[SpecN]

@Azathoth

"Ordinarily, alternative histories are not technically parallel universes. The concepts are similar but there are significant differences. Where characters travel to the past, they may cause changes in the timeline (creating a point of divergence) that result in changes to the present. The alternative present will be similar in different degrees to the original present as would be the case with a parallel universe. The main difference is that parallel universes co-exist whereas only one history or alternative history can exist at any one moment. Another difference is that moving to a parallel universe involves some inter-dimensional travel whereas alternative histories involve some type of time travel. (However, since the future is only potential and not actual, it is often conceived that more than one future may exist simultaneously.)"

So again, why couldn't "timeline" just refer to the Earth or underground of an alternate universe? Also, one of the prominent concepts in Undertale is time-manipulation rather than dimensional manipulation, which would fit with the above.

@Promestein I'm not downplaying, I just want to be absolutely sure.