Potential Chara upgrade

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I do not think you can determine higher dimensionality based on that.

It depends, really. Varying degrees of infinity, and all. However, as I said, since we don't know for sure, I feel safer with "At least High 2-A, possibly Low 1-C".

 

[DontTalk]

mhh... I don´t know. Multiplying in this case really doesn´t get you anywhere. Multiplying something infinite with absoultely anything (even infinity in most cases) doesn´t even make it larger.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

mhh... I don´t know. Multiplying in this case really doesn´t get you anywhere. Multiplying something infinite with absoultely anything (even infinity in most cases) doesn´t even make it larger.

It's less multiplying in this case and more simply ascending to an unknown but previously unfathomable level of power. Asriel using the tiniest fraction of his power was infinitely stronger than Omega Flowey, but I'm talking about full power Asriel, who dwarfed his previous self to an unknown degree, hence the "possibly Low 1-C".

 

[DontTalk]

... well, possibly I guess.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

... well, possibly I guess.

Like I said, it's only a possibility, so I don't want to say for sure, but I do want to acknowledge that it is in fact a possibility.

 

[Antvasima]

Again, I do not find it logical to upgrade to Low 1-C. "Countless" only amounts to 2-B (Nobody can logically count to even 10^15 within their lofetime, and 10^500 is a ridiculously high number). Even if a character is infinitely higher than "countless", it is still just High 2-A, not Low 1-C.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Again, I do not find it logical to upgrade to Low 1-C. "Countless" only amounts to 2-B (Nobody can logically count to even 10^15 within their lofetime, and 10^500 is a ridiculously high number). Even if a character is infinitely higher than "countless", it is still just High 2-A, not Low 1-C.

It's only for his final form. His first form is literally an infinite number of times stronger than the character who destroyed countless timelines, and his final form is an unknown amount superior to that. It's only a small posibility, but I felt the need to note it.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

So we're keeping the possible Low 1-C tier then, right?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

So we're keeping the possible Low 1-C tier then, right?

Like I said, it's only a possibility, but regardless, full power Asriel would be "At least High 2-A".

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

So we're keeping the possible Low 1-C tier then, right?

Like I said, it's only a possibility, but regardless, full power Asriel would be "At least High 2-A".

Oh okay then. Still even IF, and i say IF here, that Full Power Asriel isn't Low 1-C, he's definintely at least High 2-A going by your explanation from earlier. Pretty OP, i may add.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. I would prefer that you note that "countless" likely only refers to Tier 2-B within the profiles though.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I thought I made note of that on Chara's page?

Edit: Whoops. Just checked. Accidentally left out the "possibly" after "to". Lemme fix that and add the countless thing.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

So what am i looking at here now in terms of the Undertales characters tiers?

 

[Antvasima]

Again, even 10^15 would qualify as "countless". It seems extremely unlikely that Chara or characters scaled from him that are not infinitely more powerful, would remotely go past 10^500. I would prefer if you removed the 2-A mentions scaled from "countless", and simply replace them with "Likely 2-B".

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

So what am i looking at here now in terms of the Undertales characters tiers?

Well, only the god tiers actually got upgraded, but the changes are:

Chara-- Low 2-C => 2-B, possibly 2-A

Undyne the Undying -- Low 2-C => Likely 2-B, possibly 2-A

God Flowey -- 2-C => 2-A

Asriel -- At least (high) 2-C, likely higher | At least (high) 2-C, likely far higher => High 2-A | At least High 2-A, possibly Low 1-C

Frisk -- 2-C with at least (high) 2-C defenses => 2-A with at least High 2-A, possibly Low 1-C defenses

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Again, even 10^15 would qualify as "countless". It seems extremely unlikely that Chara or characters scaled from him that are not infinitely more powerful, would remotely go past 10^500. I would prefer if you removed the 2-A mentions scaled from "countless", and simply replace them with "Likely 2-B".

The "possibly 2-A" on Chara comes from the hypothetical infinite number of timelines that can be created and exist within the setting (i.e. Every timeline has a Flowey, who has reset countless times, which leads to the creation of more timelines, which have been reset countless times by those timelines' Floweys, and so on), but if you like, I can change it to "At least 2-B" for Chara and Undyne, and "At least 2-B, likely 2-A" for God Flowey.

 

[Antvasima]

I would prefer that, yes. Thank you.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Also, this is just a minor contextual thing, but a number that is composed of 216 'nines' is not considered "countless" for characters such as Chara and Flowey, so I have no doubt in my mind the "At least 2-B" would be true.

This comment just serves to justify the "at least 2-B" on Chara.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I have adjusted the god tiers, accordingly (except Asriel, who did not require a change on that front).

 

[Antvasima]

However, as far as I understand "countless" means the time spent counting 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9... etcetera, not simply spelling out or calculating a large number, which anybody can do.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

However, as far as I understand "countless" means the time spent counting 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9... etcetera, not simply spelling out or calculating a large number, which anybody can do.

Well, unable to be counted due to being so large, yes. However, my point was the fact that beings such as Chara and Flowey, having lived more lifetimes than imaginable due to their powers, are able to comprehends and account for such high numbers.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I sincerely doubt that they spent billions of years just counting from 1 and upwards, and even if they did they would still only reach something on the order of 10^17 even if they counted very quickly.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Well, I sincerely doubt that they spent billions of years just counting from 1 and upwards, and even if they did they would still only reach something on the order of 10^17 even if they counted very quickly.

I highly doubt they did either, but my point was mainly just that countless can be relative, and the version of "countless" for an immortal that's lived an untold number of lifetimes would likely be higher than we considered "countless".

 

[Antvasima]

My apologies for being a bit rude, but please consider that somebody counting swiftly nonstop for billions of years would only reach something of the order of 10^17. Then consider just how ridiculously excessively unfathomably staggeringly larger 10^500 (!!!) is. I don't think that there is any valid justification for placing "countless" at beyond 2-B.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Oh, I fully understand. Like I said, the "At least" is more from the hypothetical infinite varying timelines that may or may not exist at a single period of time, but since we don't know for sure, I think it is safer to place them at "At least 2-B". God Flowey's "Likely 2-A" comes from the fact that he is absurd orders of magnitude more powerful than Chara, as well as pulling of Chara's full power feat incredibly casually.

 

[Antvasima]

I find "Likely 2-B" to be more rational given what we have to go by, without inserting speculation. Also, being absurd orders of magnitude stronger than 10^17 is usually also likely still 2-B.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Man even though this must be done, it is a hackle to having to update these characters huh Azzy?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Ant

True. I have adjusted Chara, Frisk, and Undyne, accordingly.

@Cross

lol Yeah, but it's worth it. I want series I like to get recognition without being wanked, so it's good to make them as accurate as possible. Like, I don't want to be all "Asriel is High 1-A because reasons lol" and then have nothing to back it up.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for being reasonable. It is important that we at least try to strive for accuracy.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Thank you for being reasonable. It is important that we at least try to strive for accuracy.

Not a problem, Ant. Accuracy is always important, and it makes people take us more seriously and have greater trust in us.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

@Ant
True. I have adjusted Chara, Frisk, and Undyne, accordingly.

@Cross

lol Yeah, but it's worth it. I want series I like to get recognition without being wanked, so it's good to make them as accurate as possible. Like, I don't want to be all "Asriel is High 1-A because reasons lol" and then have nothing to back it up.

Same here lol. Well on a serious note, i'm actually surprised about the Undertale upgrades as well as even liking the idea of them being this strong.

Can't wait to see what people will think of this now that the God-Tiers aren't just Low 2-C to 2-C at their strongest.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Same here lol. Well on a serious note, i'm actually surprised about the Undertale upgrades as well as even liking the idea of them being this strong.

Can't wait to see what people will think of this now that the God-Tiers aren't just Low 2-C to 2-C at their strongest.

True, but we obviously must get on to the most important subject...upgrading Mettaton to universe level. (Thisisajokehe'salreadyaccuratelyplacedlol)

 

[Squid_peanut]

since I am a much bigger fan of possible ranges as opposed to just minimum would it be an okay idea to have a page explaining how it's hard to tell what the characters meant by countless and the differences if we see it as being finite or infinite, so we can have the reasoning for the range explained without clogging up the individual character pages.

 

[FTW395]

Shouldn't Sans be "atleast 2-B" seeing how Undyne the Undying got that tier for being able to actually do damage to Chara.

 

[Promestein]

Undyne harmed Chara through direct damage, while Sans harmed them through hax.