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Post-Crisis Superman AP Upgrade

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Not that I'm giving up or anything,if members want this to be closed no problem.
See you guys after infinite frontier.
 
FanOfRPGs asked me to post his replies. I will be posting my full analysis when I have the time.
 
Firestorm808 said:
How would Superman accomplish this feat? He never specifies. Will he amp himself in some way? Will he shoot his heat-vision or throw a punch? It's unclear how he would do it or if he could do it. We only see him light up his heat vision.
Click to expand...
Prolly by heat vision.
 
Firestorm808 said:
Due to the nature of the God Sphere and how Boom Tubes work, this feat is only 4-C when scaled back down to realspace.
Click to expand...
That's why I said boomtube keys are needed to be applied for superman.
Firestorm808 said:
Death of the New Gods is non-canon.
Click to expand...
I thought this wiki said it was?
Firestorm808 said:
This Darkseid is still just a Fourth World Emanation, still weaker than his Godhead.
Click to expand...
I thought any darkseid in 4th world is true form darkseid?
Firestorm808 said:
Soulfire Darkseid outright stated he was going of his way to not kill Superman and just put him in extreme pain.
Click to expand...
I know this and superman didn't tank his attack but superman could damage him(still an outlier).
 
Firestorm808 said:
I ask that instead of just linking the whole blog that the OP list the feats being used for the Low 2-C proposal along with the relevant comic sources. We will cross-examine the feats from there.
Click to expand...
Strongly agreed.
Firestorm808 said:
FanOfRPGs asked me to post his replies. I will be posting my full analysis when I have the time.
Click to expand...
This seems to make sense to me. Thank you for helping out.

Btw: How is FanofRPGs doing in terms of mental stability nowadays? Would it be safe to let him back to this community?
 
In addition to what FanofRPGs said, there were some lore scans shared by Qawsed I believe. And the descriptions of Phantom Zone mention it having a will of it's own that basically causes it to shake itself whenever Superman is harmed or approaching death. Hence, even Batman level characters could shake or destroy the Phantom zone when all they do is hold a kryptonite close to Superman.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
In addition to what FanofRPGs said, there were some lore scans shared by Qawsed I believe. And the descriptions of Phantom Zone mention it having a will of it's own that basically causes it to shake itself whenever Superman is harmed or approaching death. Hence, even Batman level characters could shake or destroy the Phantom zone when all they do is hold a kryptonite close to Superman.
Click to expand...
Well, Superman case doesnt seems to be an Chain Reaction, we legit see him angry and almost close to destroying it with pure power
Superman_could_destroy_a_dimension.jpg


''but...i could, i could make this entire dimension cease to exist if i really put my head to it'' and his face is angry
 
Bernkastelll said:
Well, Superman case doesnt seems to be an Chain Reaction, we legit see him angry and almost close to destroying it with pure power
Superman_could_destroy_a_dimension.jpg


''but...i could, i could make this entire dimension cease to exist if i really put my head to it'' and his face is angry
Click to expand...
So a bloodlusted superman?
 
We need to get an official feats debunk blog for Superman that we link to in his profile page. FanofRPGs was working on one last year when we had to ban him.
 
  • Final Crisis: Superman Beyond Vol 1 #1 October 2008, Final Crisis: Superman Beyond Vol 1 #2 March 2009
    • Claim: Superman lifts book of infinite pages, and Ultraman carries it.
      • The issue states numerous times that the Book of Infinite Pages is indeed infinite, which means it has infinite mass. Superman and Captain Marvel from Earth-5 lift the book themselves before Captain Marvel cannot handle the strain of it anymore and the shock wave blasts him back and transforms him back into Billy Batson.
      • Superman was shown to be relatively unaffected by the weight of the book or the blast since he's coaching Captain Marvel through the process the entire time and checks on Billy after the blast. Along with the fact that Superman has always had greater feats of strength than Captain Marvel in the past, this lends evidence to the fact that, while Captain Marvel was lifting a portion of the book, Superman was lifting the rest. Even if he wasn't, infinity divided by two is still infinity.
      • The first argument that is typically made concerning this feat is that Superman and Captain Marvel fail to lift the book (evidenced by them being blasted back). However, they did lift it. The only reason they got blasted back is that Captain Marvel couldn't handle the strain (read the dialogue). Also, the Book of Infinite Pages is sentient.
      • Immediately after they are blasted back, Ultraman from Earth-3 lifts the book by himself and presents it to his master, saying that he read to the end of the book and "evil wins." Another argument made is that the Book of Infinite Pages cannot be infinite, since Ultraman read to the end of the book, which must mean that it's finite. However, we know this isn't the case.
      • Ultraman states that "evil wins" while talking about the Final Crisis event. However, evil doesn't win. Cosmic Armor Superman destroys the threat and later Superman destroys Darkseid's essence. Good wins. What Ultraman "read" was just a possible future in the infinite multitude of futures contained within the book. Again, we know he couldn't have possibly read the only ending to the book if he was wrong about it.
      • Lastly, for those who argue that Ultraman lifted the book, but Superman needed Captain Marvel's help, Ultraman is just an alternate version of Superman. Feats scale to both of them because Superman has overpowered and defeated Ultraman many times in the past, as seen below. Not to mention Ultraman is defeated in this same story too.
    • Analysis:
      • Looking at the panels of the book before, during, and after their living attempt, you can't even tell that the book changed positions at all.
      • Also, if 3 people are comparable to each other and two of them combined can't lift something, then the last one being more than 2x stronger would in essence be an outlier.
      • FanOfRPGs: I should note that the infinite pages were all residing in one space, effectively meaning it was a sheet of paper with a ludicrous (infinite) gravity field around it, which refer to the scan about creating a singularity above, especially egregious in the fact that both these come from the same storyline (Final Crisis). If it had infinite mass under normal physics, reality would break. Fortunately for Superman, they exist in Limbo, a space beyond even the Godsphere, a platonic sphere transcendent of space, time, and physics. Limbo sees it as fiction. In fact, Morrison has stated many times Limbo exists at the edge of comic book logic and reality, even in the multiversity map
        • So the feat takes place in a place where physics and logic is so trivialized it's sub-finitely irrelevant and it's starting to veer into just plot-induced causality (The Monitor Sphere is the full submergence into narrative causality), and Superman likely couldn't replicate such a feat in realspace because a book like that (Which by the way isn't infinite; it's transfinite. It includes the history of the entire DC Omniverse which is infinitely dimensioned and exists beyond just basic countable infinity.), if brought to realspace, would either be larger than it and just crush the infinitesimal universe into nothing or create a singularity and destroy everything with Superman included
        • Superman could only do this feat because he was in a place where physics and matter broke down and plot-induced causality was more important.
        • Even then, Superman failed at doing anything regarding physically transferring the book. Looking at the comic, one will see Superman and Shazam attempt to hold the book but as they bring their hands forth, ergo they didn't even have hand-to-page-contact with the mass of the book:
        • They are flooded with the Monitor Sphere's history which overwhelms and throws them back. It doesn't even appear they actually successfully grabbed onto the book or moved it far. So regardless, it was a failed feat.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
And the descriptions of Phantom Zone mention it having a will of it's own that basically causes it to shake itself whenever Superman is harmed or approaching death.
Click to expand...
I will like to see scans of this.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Hence, even Batman level characters could shake or destroy the Phantom zone
Click to expand...
I will definitely want to see scans of this and the comic issues.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
when all they do is hold a kryptonite close to Superman.
Click to expand...
I don't get you, are you trying to say if superman dies the phantom zone get's destroyed or I'm I missing something?
Bernkastelll said:
Well, Superman case doesnt seems to be an Chain Reaction, we legit see him angry and almost close to destroying it with pure power
Superman_could_destroy_a_dimension.jpg


''but...i could, i could make this entire dimension cease to exist if i really put my head to it'' and his face is angry
Click to expand...
Proposally why i said superman needs boomtube keys as he has feats with them. And we don't even know the extent of superman power when bloodlusted as he almost never's even on the brink of death.
AKM sama said:
What's new this time?
Click to expand...

Teezar said:
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/fatal-fiction/images/3/31/Superman_vs_Phantom_Stranger2.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20190216201155 2014's Trinity of Sin: Phantom Stranger #18
Superman can damage phantom stranger who is an equal to the spectre.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/fatal-fiction/images/f/f3/Futures_End_Superman_vs_Convergence_Brainiac1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20190216203631 2015's New 52: Futures End Issue #44,
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/fatal-fiction/images/1/17/Futures_End_Superman_vs_Convergence_Brainiac2.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20190216203642 https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/fatal-fiction/images/5/57/Futures_End_Superman_vs_Convergence_Brainiac3.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20190216203653 Superman survives a blast from and then punches a godlike version of Brainiac (known as Convergence Brainiac by fans) so hard that every version of Brainiac feels it across time. The punch also knocks him down.
However, it should be noted that every Brainiac felt it because they're all mentally connected through time and that this is technically only a possible future version of Superman set five years after the then New 52 continuity, which invalidates it as a credible feat of Superman's power.
However, the feat of punching and knocking down Convergence Brainiac is still impressive in the sense that Convergence Brainiac is at least a Low Multiverse level threat (see link above for evidence), as he had used a combination of his technology, the Vanishing Point, and Telos to render even beings like Pre-Crisis Superman and Zero Hour Parallax Hal Jordan useless by comparison.
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/fatal-fiction/images/b/b6/Superman_possibly_destroys_Doctor_Manhattan.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20190216210839 Doomsday clock issue 7.
This isn't a feat at all so much as a question... can Superman destroy Doctor Manhattan?

The question comes from 2018's Doomsday Clock #7 where Doctor Manhattan reveals that he's seen the future a month from now (in comic book continuity) and he doesn't see anything at all after Superman charges toward him. He then asks the question:

"Does Superman destroy me? Or do I destroy everything?"

Doctor Manhattan is certainly a being capable of destroying everything, but that begs the question... does he also destroy himself? The sheer fact that Doctor Manhattan, a being known for his dismissing of absurdities in search of truth, is even considering the possibility that Superman can destroy him is interesting at the very least.

Thank you,am already tired of copy pasting from the blog,this are the one's i could pick from the blog.
Click to expand...
Plus an extra key of boomtube superman feats.
 
Antvasima said:
Btw: How is FanofRPGs doing in terms of mental stability nowadays? Would it be safe to let him back to this community?
Click to expand...

FanOfRPGs said:
It's not that I feel betrayed, it's that I don't like the current atmosphere/environment of VSB. I have grown very depressed and anxious over personal identity and selfness issues. The Sera drama being concluded left me seeing VSB in a dead and tired way. There is another reason I won't go on VSB, but it is best not to go deeper into it.
Click to expand...
 
Teezar said:
That's why I said boom tube keys are needed to be applied for superman.

I thought this wiki said it was?

I thought any Darkseid in the 4th world is True Form Darkseid?

I know this and superman didn't tank his attack but superman could damage him(still an outlier).
Click to expand...

FanOfRPGs said:
Superman hit Darkseif off guard, and Darkseid was more angered at Superman's audacity than any actual harm.

Superman didn't hit Darkseid believing he could do any harm, he did it out of the desperate need to feel useful even if he was an insect in the scenario.

Fourth world emanations =/= godheads. Apokolips itself has an emanation

Ant agreed DotNG is non-canon. Morrison said its final events were apocryphal, and Supes never refers to the events in it during the Final Crisis as they were retconned.
Click to expand...
 
Firestorm808 said:
  • Final Crisis: Superman Beyond Vol 1 #1 October 2008, Final Crisis: Superman Beyond Vol 1 #2 March 2009
    • Claim: Superman lifts book of infinite pages, and Ultraman carries it.
      • The issue states numerous times that the Book of Infinite Pages is indeed infinite, which means it has infinite mass. Superman and Captain Marvel from Earth-5 lift the book themselves before Captain Marvel cannot handle the strain of it anymore and the shock wave blasts him back and transforms him back into Billy Batson.
      • Superman was shown to be relatively unaffected by the weight of the book or the blast since he's coaching Captain Marvel through the process the entire time and checks on Billy after the blast. Along with the fact that Superman has always had greater feats of strength than Captain Marvel in the past, this lends evidence to the fact that, while Captain Marvel was lifting a portion of the book, Superman was lifting the rest. Even if he wasn't, infinity divided by two is still infinity.
      • The first argument that is typically made concerning this feat is that Superman and Captain Marvel fail to lift the book (evidenced by them being blasted back). However, they did lift it. The only reason they got blasted back is that Captain Marvel couldn't handle the strain (read the dialogue). Also, the Book of Infinite Pages is sentient.
      • Immediately after they are blasted back, Ultraman from Earth-3 lifts the book by himself and presents it to his master, saying that he read to the end of the book and "evil wins." Another argument made is that the Book of Infinite Pages cannot be infinite, since Ultraman read to the end of the book, which must mean that it's finite. However, we know this isn't the case.
      • Ultraman states that "evil wins" while talking about the Final Crisis event. However, evil doesn't win. Cosmic Armor Superman destroys the threat and later Superman destroys Darkseid's essence. Good wins. What Ultraman "read" was just a possible future in the infinite multitude of futures contained within the book. Again, we know he couldn't have possibly read the only ending to the book if he was wrong about it.
      • Lastly, for those who argue that Ultraman lifted the book, but Superman needed Captain Marvel's help, Ultraman is just an alternate version of Superman. Feats scale to both of them because Superman has overpowered and defeated Ultraman many times in the past, as seen below. Not to mention Ultraman is defeated in this same story too.
    • Analysis:
      • Looking at the panels of the book before, during, and after their living attempt, you can't even tell that the book changed positions at all.
      • Also, if 3 people are comparable to each other and two of them combined can't lift something, then the last one being more than 2x stronger would in essence be an outlier.
      • FanOfRPGs: I should note that the infinite pages were all residing in one space, effectively meaning it was a sheet of paper with a ludicrous (infinite) gravity field around it, which refer to the scan about creating a singularity above, especially egregious in the fact that both these come from the same storyline (Final Crisis). If it had infinite mass under normal physics, reality would break. Fortunately for Superman, they exist in Limbo, a space beyond even the Godsphere, a platonic sphere transcendent of space, time, and physics. Limbo sees it as fiction. In fact, Morrison has stated many times Limbo exists at the edge of comic book logic and reality, even in the multiversity map
        • So the feat takes place in a place where physics and logic is so trivialized it's sub-finitely irrelevant and it's starting to veer into just plot-induced causality (The Monitor Sphere is the full submergence into narrative causality), and Superman likely couldn't replicate such a feat in realspace because a book like that (Which by the way isn't infinite; it's transfinite. It includes the history of the entire DC Omniverse which is infinitely dimensioned and exists beyond just basic countable infinity.), if brought to realspace, would either be larger than it and just crush the infinitesimal universe into nothing or create a singularity and destroy everything with Superman included
        • Superman could only do this feat because he was in a place where physics and matter broke down and plot-induced causality was more important.
        • Even then, Superman failed at doing anything regarding physically transferring the book. Looking at the comic, one will see Superman and Shazam attempt to hold the book but as they bring their hands forth, ergo they didn't even have hand-to-page-contact with the mass of the book:
        • They are flooded with the Monitor Sphere's history which overwhelms and throws them back. It doesn't even appear they actually successfully grabbed onto the book or moved it far. So regardless, it was a failed feat.
Click to expand...
From what I know,you can't hold book of infinite pages even when ultraman did he wasn't holding it.
 
Superman didn't hit darkseid believing he could do any harm
*doesn't change the fact he did.

i don't even see this as a point,lmao.

Superman hit darkseid off guard.
*Doesn't also changes anything for him to damage such a character that was massively amped besides DC isn't like dragon ball that their durability are lessened off guard.

Since you said it's non canon,you can move to next.

Death metal did make all stories and histories 1.
 
Antvasima said:
We need to get an official feats debunk blog for Superman that we link to in his profile page. FanofRPGs was working on one last year when we had to ban him.
Click to expand...
@Firestorm808

Would you be willing to handle this please? Maybe FanofRPGs would be willing to help you out?
 
Okay. Thank you for helping out. You can tell me via PM when you are done.
 
You guys haven't replied on a requested boomtube key,cause superman has feats on them.
Plus the doctor Manhattan case.
 
Honestly don't even care one bit about the Low 2-C upgrade, but

"Superman always holds back"

Almost all of the verse is scaled to him and otherwise drops to 8-C, Flash's 4-B is absolute nonsense.

Even if you're doing this revision, it doesn't just take upgrading Superman, you need to find the replacement tier for every single character in the damn verse.

So this revision is CRITICALLY underprepared at its core anyways, you don't come around, **** up the verse, and then leave.
 
The_Impress said:
Honestly don't even care one bit about the Low 2-C upgrade, but

"Superman always holds back"

Almost all of the verse is scaled to him and otherwise drops to 8-C, Flash's 4-B is absolute nonsense.

Even if you're doing this revision, it doesn't just take upgrading Superman, you need to find the replacement tier for every single character in the damn verse.

So this revision is CRITICALLY underprepared at its core anyways, you don't come around, **** up the verse, and then leave.
Click to expand...
I think I understand you.
I personally have to make a credible upgrade thread for all of them.

I think I can but I will needs weeks.
 
Actually wait I think Aquaman has a 7-A.

We can just drop Post-Crisis to 7-A unless someone finds better feats, maybe.

The one thing this revision seems to have handily proven, is that no one can feasibly scale to Superman.

**** your upgrade time to downgrade DC to tier 7 OWO
 
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