Post-Crisis Superman AP Upgrade

[Ehnkr2beboh]

I'm fine with not using the Phantom Zone statement due to thinking it's not pure AP or him being dimensionality amped, but DeMatteis is a huge proponent of anyone's interpretations being as valid as his own, so it's a similar case to someone like Al Ewing where anything they say on Twitter is really not meant to be definitive. Though I still don't think we should use the Phantom Zone statement (at least by the wiki's standards), just I don't think we should use his Twitter statements as counter-evidence.

 

[Firestorm808]

I'm fine with not using the Phantom Zone statement due to thinking it's not pure AP or him being dimensionality amped, but DeMatteis is a huge proponent of anyone's interpretations being as valid as his own, so it's a similar case to someone like Al Ewing where anything they say on Twitter is really not meant to be definitive. Though I still don't think we should use the Phantom Zone statement (at least by the wiki's standards), just I don't think we should use his Twitter statements as counter-evidence.

Reading those tweets, he's talking about higher cosmology and abstract concepts rather than the concrete destruction of an object.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

If Superman’s feats become unreliable to scale characters to John Stewart and Alan Scott have 4-B reasoning that don’t involve Kal.

JLA members also took hits from the Void Hound, which we consider 4-B based on this (if the VH feat is unreliable we should remove it from the Superman (Post-Crisis) page).

 

[Firestorm808]

One toei member on twitter also said that SSB goku cannot destroy the universe and the GODs might be universal and zeno is the only true universe buster.
Writer statements shouldn't always be taken as evidence to debunk something.

I highly doubt that this Toei member had any significant influence on the manga or anime for that franchise.

Regarding JM, I'm just saying that his long history of writing Post-Crisis Superman was under the context that Superman wasn't universal level.

Brian Michael Bendis wrote Superman Vol 5 #5 January 2019 that has this Phantom Zone claim, and he's only been writing Superman for the Rebirth era.

If Superman’s feats become unreliable to scale characters to John Stewart and Alan Scott have 4-B reasoning that don’t involve Kal.

JLA members also took hits from the Void Hound, which we consider 4-B based on this (if the VH feat is unreliable we should remove it from the Superman (Post-Crisis) page).

FanOfRPGs: The Void Hound destroys solar systems over time and destroys the star with an unspecified supernova-initiating weapon. Superman and co were being hit by point defense systems, not this unspecified weapon.

@Antvasima Can you unlock the page so we can remove the Void Hound feat from the durability justification? I can attest to Fan's analysis.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

Reading those tweets, he's talking about higher cosmology and abstract concepts rather than the concrete destruction of an object.

Eh? The first one is about Superman destroying the "endless realities", and it's not limited to cosmology stuff as he says the same things about "who would win" questions, or if certain comics are a dream or not, but in general him saying anyone's interpretations of comics should be as valid should show his beliefs. I'd say in this context even more so since the Phantom Zone statement isn't even written by DeMatteis.

Edit: Also I'm fine with removing the Void Hound feat.

 

[Firestorm808]

Eh? The first one is about Superman destroying the "endless realities", and it's not limited to cosmology stuff as he says the same things about "who would win" questions, or if certain comics are a dream or not, but in general him saying anyone's interpretations of comics should be as valid should show his beliefs. I'd say in this context even more so since the Phantom Zone statement isn't even written by DeMatteis.

I'm pretty sure The Living Tribunal and Oblivion fall under higher cosmology entities.

"However you interpret it is correct. For you. However, someone else interprets it is correct for them."

Yes, and JM wrote his stories under the interpretation that Superman wasn't universal. This is correct for him.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

I'm pretty sure The Living Tribunal and Oblivion fall under higher cosmology entities.

I mean sure they are higher cosmology entities but he says "any time a question starts with "who's more powerful?" it's not a question for me to answer". Any time would include times aside from cosmology stuff, and he says similar things for lower cosmology stuff, and even when discussing how abilities work.

However I don't really want to clog up/derail this thread to just discussing DeMatteis' credibility, so I'll stop here.

 

[Hellbeast]

Actually wait I think Aquaman has a 7-A.

We can just drop Post-Crisis to 7-A unless someone finds better feats, maybe.

There’s definitely feats above 7-A of all things tho (7-A would only work if we do that thing Fan suggested)

I recall Supergirl and Starfire enduring a black hole at some point and we know at one point or another Green Lanterns can devastate world’s and create solar systems with some effort.

Wonder Woman might have a Tier 6 feat or two but I need to consult the RT’s for that

The one thing this revision seems to have handily proven, is that no one can feasibly scale to Superman.

Even if we were to downgrade much of the verse, Darkseid’s Avatars and Doomsday would likely outright scale to his full power at some point

Doomsday for killing him (and I believe Supes stopped holding back in that fight) and Darkseid’s regularly shown as bitchslapping or being relative to Kal El in power over his careers

So people would scale, just not as many as the original system implies

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Honestly don't even care one bit about the Low 2-C upgrade, but

"Superman always holds back"

Almost all of the verse is scaled to him and otherwise drops to 8-C, Flash's 4-B is absolute nonsense.

Even if you're doing this revision, it doesn't just take upgrading Superman, you need to find the replacement tier for every single character in the damn verse.

So this revision is CRITICALLY underprepared at its core anyways, you don't come around, **** up the verse, and then leave.

What's wrong with 4-B flash?

 

[TheShieldToronto76]

I agree with the upgrade still

 

[Firestorm808]

I agree with the upgrade still

Based on what justifications?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Superman holds back against human characters obviously, and against people like Lex Luthor and the like. But that is not the case when he's being poisoned by Red Kryptonite. As that can actually make him turn both Evil and bloodlusted; which plenty of characters actually have managed to match his strength even in that state. And Superman doesn't hold back against the especially evil villains or those Superman admits are superior to him such as Brainiac, Doomsday, Darkseid and his various avatars.

But yeah, Fan and several others literally debunked a majority of the universal stuff. And this scan Qawsed shared above I had on my mind was the thing that proved Phantom Zone feats are chain reactions. Plus, we recently revised our stabilization feats that they do not scale to physical stats. Phantom Zone being prime example. The Book of Infinite Pages does not have infinite mass as debunked by Ultraman when he read there was a beginning and an end. Plus, the combined might of Superman, Shazam, and Ultraman did not even budge it, and thus is 100% anti-feat. And same with other giant lists of Tier 2 stuff, he never really did any universal feats and it was actually other characters did those for him or he only fought avatars of Tier 2 characters and not the real ones, or he used a kryptonite like weakness. Like Darkseid actually had a weakness to a specific song due to Mandrakk stuff.

 

[Hellbeast]

What's wrong with 4-B flash?

I’m following to find this out

At most you could say it’s a specific attack and not every hit he throws but it’s still something he can do and it doesn’t seem outliery

Superman holds back against human characters obviously, and against people like Lex Luthor and the like. But that is not the case when he's being poisoned by Red Kryptonite. As that can actually make him turn both Evil and bloodlusted; which plenty of characters actually have managed to match his strength even in that state. And Superman doesn't hold back against the especially evil villains or those Superman admits are superior to him such as Brainiac, Doomsday, Darkseid and his various avatars.

I think there’s other villains too but yeah there’s tons of fools he doesn’t hold back against

The Red Kryptonite could be explained by having subconscious limiters (which he had until Our Worlds at War)

But yeah, Fan and several others literally debunked a majority of the universal stuff. And this scan Qawsed shared above I had on my mind was the thing that proved Phantom Zone feats are chain reactions. Plus, we recently revised our stabilization feats that they do not scale to physical stats. Phantom Zone being prime example. The Book of Infinite Pages does not have infinite mass as debunked by Ultraman when he read there was a beginning and an end. Plus, the combined might of Superman, Shazam, and Ultraman did not even budge it, and thus is 100% anti-feat.

in fairness we do scale to physicals if it meets a few criteria listed on the page but yeah this doesn’t seem to

 

[YuuxGod97]

Disagree FRA, honestly haven’t seen such convincing disagreement explanations in a while.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Also, wasn't it agreed the "Power limiting brain" something Bronze Age Superman had, not Post-Crisis?

 

[Hellbeast]

Also, wasn't it agreed the "Power limiting brain" something Bronze Age Superman had, not Post-Crisis?

I’m pretty sure Mongul II trains him to overcome it in Post Crisis

 

[Antvasima]

FanOfRPGs: The Void Hound destroys solar systems over time and destroys the star with an unspecified supernova-initiating weapon. Superman and co were being hit by point defense systems, not this unspecified weapon.

@Antvasima Can you unlock the page so we can remove the Void Hound feat from the durability justification? I can attest to Fan's analysis.

I do not mind, but we need some more confirmations from other members first.

Btw: During Grant Morrison's recent Green Lantern run, Hal Jordan's full energy output, which expended almost all of the energy in his power ring, was measured on a High 4-C supernova level.

 

[Antvasima]

I’m pretty sure Mongul II trains him to overcome it in Post Crisis

That is correct, yes. During John Byrne's initial Post-Crisis Superman run, the character was possible to knock out with a powerful conventional nuclear explosion (presumably at most 7-B or so), but he gradually increased in power, especially after Mongul II's training during the "Our Worlds at War" storyline.

 

[Teezar]

Regarding destroying a universe, a more prominent Post-Crisis Superman writer considers it a stretch.

• https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Category:J.M._DeMatteis/Writer
• https://archive.is/25jaS

Isn't this the same writer that stated doomsday and superman scale above true form darkseid? Or I'm missing something?

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

Isn't this the same writer that stated doomsday and superman scale above true form darkseid? Or I'm missing something?

That was Dan Jurgens.

 

[Teezar]

Superman admits are superior to him such as Brainiac, Doomsday, Darkseid and his various avatars.

I don't ever remember saying this characters are above him.

Phantom Zone statement isn't even written by DeMatteis.

But do you know the writer of the comics

One toei member on twitter also said that SSB goku cannot destroy the universe and the GODs might be universal and zeno is the only true universe buster.
Writer statements shouldn't always be taken as evidence to debunk something.

Writer statements should be non canon.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Writer statements that contradict the events in the verse shouldnt be taken serious, or should it? @Antvasima

 

[Antvasima]

Unofficial Twitter statements from individual writers that do not have control over a franchise cannot be taken as gospel, yes.

 

[Teezar]

I'm tired of hearing andrew Marino shit

CV actually made a rule against author statements.

 

[Bernkastelll]

I don't think that making a rule against author statement is good, the problem is in verse likes Marvel and DC that has several writers, and some statements can contradict feats, like a statement of Odin not being able to destroy galaxies, despite having feats that are 2-C to 2-A here

 

[Teezar]

I just think there best way to quantify feats are by the comic book sources.

 

[Confluctor]

Yeah, I am in agreement. Disregard anything that isn't the comic (handbooks/guides are alright too unless contradictory).

 

[Teezar]

I just read the comics and it's never stated superman created the phantom zone.
The world he made is called metropia in the phantom zone made of clay from the phantom zone.
The next page of the scan
He used a device to create that world and he calls it(this earth).
Like I said the world(metropia is in the phantom zone).
The world in this scan is refering to metropia and not the phantom zone as a whole

Besides of your claim superman is linked to phantom zone(not true). Even if superman destroyed it,you said it's not a feat cause his linked to it(it's actually a pathetic point).

If flash were to suddenly destroy the speed force(not sure its possible) will you say it's not a feat cause his connected to it? Cause I don't seem to understand.

 

[Antvasima]

Please read our rules pages. We have regulations concerning author statements.

 

[DragonLord]

I feel like it’s sort of a malformed question anyway, sure “can X destroy the Universe” would mean to a battleboarder “can this individual with enough force destroy a universe or beat someone who can” but I think to a normal author you could also see it as “can X destroy his home universe including everyone who’d try to stop him from doing that” which is pretty much an entirely different question

like those “X Kills the Marvel Universe” books aren’t about the character in question actually destroying the physical universe

 

[Teezar]

Please read our rules pages. We have regulations concerning author statements.

Ok then.

 

[DaReaperMan]

This upgrade has been shot down like 10 times or more, my excuse is that no Superman CRT on Low 2-C popped up in the related threads feed

 

[Antvasima]

I feel like it’s sort of a malformed question anyway, sure “can X destroy the Universe” would mean to a battleboarder “can this individual with enough force destroy a universe or beat someone who can” but I think to a normal author you could also see it as “can X destroy his home universe including everyone who’d try to stop him from doing that” which is pretty much an entirely different question

like those “X Kills the Marvel Universe” books aren’t about the character in question actually destroying the physical universe

Good point.

 

[Firestorm808]

Why are we still talking about a Rebirth feat when you are trying to upgrade the Post-Crisis profile?

 

[Greenshifter]

If Superman’s feats become unreliable to scale characters to John Stewart and Alan Scott have 4-B reasoning that don’t involve Kal.

JLA members also took hits from the Void Hound, which we consider 4-B based on this (if the VH feat is unreliable we should remove it from the Superman (Post-Crisis) page).

4-B leaguers can still scale off of Wally’s RMP. I’ll detail the scaling when I’m less busy.

 

[Teezar]

Why are we still talking about a Rebirth feat when you are trying to upgrade the Post-Crisis profile?

You haven't replied the Manhattan case.

 

[DaReaperMan]

You haven't replied the Manhattan case.

Isn't Dr. Manhattan like Low 1-C with Unknown dura?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The Doctor Manhattan example is just full of speculative loopholes; it's just something that literally never happens. And heck, pretty much everyone who knows the actual gap between his and Superman's power admit that Manhattan could just easily turn Superman into Quantum dust. Not to mention, one of the reasons he's Tier 1 to begin with is due to being superior to Mr Mxysptlyk, who is an entity infinitely superior to Supes and literally just toys with him in every encounter he's in.

Also, claiming that "He thinks Superman can destroy him" is headcanon. He was simply unsure and that's it.

 

[Teezar]

Isn't Dr. Manhattan like Low 1-C with Unknown dura?

Doesn't change the fact he believes superman can destroy him.

 

[Teezar]

The Doctor Manhattan example is just full of speculative loopholes; it's just something that literally never happens. And heck, pretty much everyone who knows the actual gap between his and Superman's power admit that Manhattan could just easily turn Superman into Quantum dust. Not to mention, one of the reasons he's Tier 1 to begin with is due to being superior to Mr Mxysptlyk, who is an entity infinitely superior to Supes and literally just toys with him in every encounter he's in.

True but Manhattan actually believes superman can destroy him. That's why I'm saying superman teir should be 4-B far higher/varies or unknown.

Maybe a footnote saying depending on the story. Cause I don't see how a 4-B will damage a 2A to possibly low 1-C character(emperor joker). Or someone like doctor Manhattan will believe superman can actually destroy him. And the fact an author also stated in his stories superman actually defeats true form darkseid and doomsday(doomsday I believe cause of his reactive evolution).