Post-Crisis Superman AP Upgrade

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm with there being the same general premise page; but at the very least I think evolving the page to address different sections as well as being elaborate with the flaws on both sections separately. Basically, the same initial idea, but both have vastly different executive reasons for it.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay but DC and Marvel have different problems so why force them to have the same rules?

Because they are the main superhero verses and have traditionally been run with similar rules in a powerscaling context. At the very least our rules apply well to both of them as far as I am aware.

 

[Antvasima]

I'm with there being the same general premise page; but at the very least I think evolving the page to address different sections as well as being elaborate with the flaws on both sections separately. Basically, the same initial idea, but both have vastly different executive reasons for it.

I suppose that expanding the page a bit might be an idea, if it is done in a very well-informed manner, but none of the current contents should be removed, or our Marvel and DC pages risk to turn into a considerably bigger mess than currently.

 

[The_Impress]

I think that the rules apply well to both franchises, even if it may hit Marvel more in the bullseye. We genuinely need them as a safeguard to avoid senseless chain-scaling, among other things.

We currently have the most important scaling rules for Marvel on the berse page for anyone to vandalize.

They may have common points but they also have distinctions. We'll keep the common points and add the distinctions in the separate powerscaling pages :v

 

[Antvasima]

I do not know how to properly distinguish them in a constructive and non-harmful manner, but you can PM me about it if you wish, as we are currently derailing, and this is a very sensitive topic.

 

[Firestorm808]

@The_Impress

Unless you have done the statistical analysis of the Post-Crisis to Flashpoint feats, you cannot say that the era split is inaccurate or not.

 

[Hellbeast]

In-continuity powerups weren't extended to every single character in the cast, in my opinion it's abit silly to consider them

Thing is we see tons of this such as

• Supes growing stronger and overcoming his subconscious linits
• Steel making newer and newer armours
• Diana being empowered by different Gods

And likely quite a few others, even ignoring that whole business with these characters being treated as more powerful narratively over time

I've made my point, and at the end of the day I guess I will go by what other staff members feel correct, it's all semantics based distinctions :v

Rest assured I repeat, if these do go through, I'm not going to support these being extended towards Marvel at all, and will push for them to have their powerscaling standards be unassociated with DC Comics.

Yeah we could probably put them under their own section on the page (maybe a link to the timeline stuff)

Current system employed by Marvel makes the ratings completely correct by most standards, and I will guarantee if the same standards are applied to DC it will fix a mass majority of problems, but I am feeling erasplit is quite inferior and presumptuous compared to it, and basically solves nothing. We can't do both unless we want DC files to be an absolute clutter of keys and whatnot

What would these revisions be curiously

 

[Firestorm808]

...if we're doing this era split crap for DC, I want their power scaling rules split from Marvel's, y'all clearly don't care for extending verse standards so why even bother pretending.

And just FYI we have already made it really clear in the past that erasplit is a completely arbitrary distinction made only to downplay DC, and presuming shit a writer will never care about ONCE, alongside just creating feat pockets where what once were outliers, can seem very plausible.

It's like that one Iron Man revision where the user cherrypicked 7 5-A armors to put into Iron Man's file while not listing anything weaker, except done to lower stats considerably, hell erasplit is worse because at least Iron Man armors HAVE in-canon power creep stated

The key distinctions are not arbitrary. If I wanted I could have made more keys each and any time something changes, but I intentionally trimmed down to solely 4 that are shown to exist.

From 1986-1993, there was a concerted effort to make Superman weaker. This wasn't conflicting views from the authors; they went on record to note they wanted to avoid the excesses of pre-crisis Superman and heavily nerfed and grounded him as a result.

-For Superman, it's already been listed but he got way more powerful after absorbing Eradicator. This makes sense given Eradicator was shown prior to being exceedingly more powerful than Superman. Other characters have a point where they can get stronger too, Zero Hour happened not long after and it was shown to rewrite Superman's history slightly enough that he achieved his post-Eradicator Absorption feats as early as the Man of Steel storyline, plus a few other differences.

-Post-Mongul training, he started doing classically herald level feats. Prior before he at best helped support the moon from moving too fast with help, or destroyed a giant asteroid that could "demolish earth," but suddenly after this training he could withstand a magical blow with the force of Earth, power engines to move Krypton, push the Mageddon gears, etc. It's simple. He was stated to not be adept in his skills by Mogul II, he trains with Mogul II, and now his feats are more impressive.

-After Infinite Crisis, Superman notes he grew more powerful, but most importantly for most characters the retcons of Infinite Crisis gave them back a ton of their pre-crisis history and changed the general history of DC in general, justifying how their powerset has improved
This factors with herald characters who writers believed now could appropriately be upgraded through retcon even. They had a consensus to make Superman weaker since the beginning of Post Crisis, but overshot him to almost Golden Age levels, and decided to slowly give him back his powers in a gradual manner through major plot events that can justify it.
The only inconsistencies I found were with early Green lantern, but I follow OBD's line of thinking and just say he was always much stronger than Superman and that's abundantly clear when GL does universal feats more explicitly. The times when he is scaling to Superman abounds when he isn't putting enough willpower into his moves and is mostly jobbing.

And Mongul I scaling, but that inconsistency in itself is internal I feel.

Era split is dumb, you're just drawing lines in the sand and deciding randomly what flies and what doesn't
This will most certaintly will lead to tier 2 and above Superman purely of pockets of feats where it looks consistent lol

Except it wouldn't because a bulk of his "tier 2 feats" are in the late 90s-early 2000s where they're all debunked and would be inconsistent contextually anyways.

I will just say subkeys actually do prevent tier 2 feats as you can look at one and say it's inconsistent because writers consistently put him at tier 7-6 at that time. The divisions aren't arbitrary and if you really are complaining about even the explicit times like when Superman is resurrected or train with Mogul, at least have 1986-1994, 1994-2006, 2006-2011 for Pre-Zero Hour, Pre-Infinite Crisis, and Pre-Flashpoint. Those affect all characters at the same time and so doesn't create potential ramifications for scaling other characters.(edited)

Lastly, I still would like to see the evidence for him getting an amp post-Infinite Crisis. I know there are scans saying his mind and senses are more precise, but nothing for him getting an actual power amp.

• Superman Vol 1 #650, May 2006
  • Following being exposed to kryptonite and the red sun Rao, Superman has lost his powers for about a year so far.
• Action Comics Vol 1 #838, June 2006
  • Following Infinite Crisis, Superman's "kryptonian cellular make-up hasn't changed."
  • His cells are actively resisting absorbing any solar power.
  • Solar shock did not help jumpstart his powers.
• Superman Vol 1 #652, July 2006
  • Clark theorizes that he mentally suppressed himself to not have powers.
  • Superman's active need and desire for his powers bring them back.
• Action Comics Vol 1 #839, July 2006
  • Eldirao/Rao stripped Superman of his powers during Infinite Crisis.
  • The shock of his powers returning boosted Clark's brain functions.
• Superman Vol 1 #653, August 2006
  • Superman states that he intensified his heat vision more than ever before and more than he thought he could.

 

[Firestorm808]

With most of the "post-DoS" scans actually referring to a temporary amp and the "post-Infinite Crisis" scans still not being provided, as well as the previous problem with characters that didn't get amps being comparable to Superman throughout the eras, I'll be leaning towards disagreeing for the moment. Though Firestorm should still get a chance to explain his stance, since he brought it up in the first place.

Superman got excessively powerful due to excess radiation after Eradicator, but he was still stronger. Parasite simply took off the radiation that wasn't solar from Supes but he was still stronger. He was still noted to be in tip-top strength. Just the excess out-of-control strength he had was removed.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

• Superman Vol 1 #650, May 2006
  • Following being exposed to kryptonite and the red sun Rao, Superman has lost his powers for about a year so far.
• Action Comics Vol 1 #838, June 2006
  • Following Infinite Crisis, Superman's "kryptonian cellular make-up hasn't changed."
  • His cells are actively resisting absorbing any solar power.
  • Solar shock did not help jumpstart his powers.
• Superman Vol 1 #652, July 2006
  • Clark theorizes that he mentally suppressed himself to not have powers.
  • Superman's active need and desire for his powers bring them back.
• Action Comics Vol 1 #839, July 2006
  • Eldirao/Rao stripped Superman of his powers during Infinite Crisis.
  • The shock of his powers returning boosted Clark's brain functions.
• Superman Vol 1 #653, August 2006
  • Superman states that he intensified his heat vision more than ever before and more than he thought he could.

What here proves he was amped? It never says he had a power amp. Superman's heat vision being more concentrated and intense wasn't about him making it stronger than ever, but like his senses and mind, more precise, as it's about him aiming for a small knot.

Superman got excessively powerful due to excess radiation after Eradicator, but he was still stronger. Parasite simply took off the radiation that wasn't solar from Supes but he was still stronger. He was still noted to be in tip-top strength. Just the excess out-of-control strength he had was removed.

Him being in "number one shape" wouldn't mean he's stronger than before, just at his current peak. Or that he'll no longer have the risk of his power overflowing, as the next line is about him losing the excess energy. Although, if Hunter/Prey was after the Parasite arc, I will agree that there's still stuff saying he's stronger than before, just I'd like to get that cleared up (though then again, the last time I recall him fighting Cyborg Supes by this point was Superman #82, right before he gets his powers back, so it could be in reference to him no longer being powerless instead).

 

[Antvasima]

@Firestorm808

Do you think that two statistics keys that divide Superman at his weakest (near the beginning) and at his strongest (towards the end) would be enough for him? 4 of them may be a bit excessive.

 

[Firestorm808]

@Firestorm808

Do you think that two statistics keys that divide Superman at his weakest (near the beginning) and at his strongest (towards the end) would be enough for him? 4 of them may be a bit excessive.

Once I finish the statistical analysis, we can better distinguish his power, possibly reducing the key amount needed.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for your hard work.

 

[Firestorm808]

What here proves he was amped? It never says he had a power amp. Superman's heat vision being more concentrated and intense wasn't about him making it stronger than ever, but like his senses and mind, more precise, as it's about him aiming for a small knot.

We are shown that Superman had to push his Heat Vision more than ever before and more than he thought he could in order to penetrate the added armor Lex's suit adapted with. Let me be clear. Unless we have the data to confirm better feats than prior to this event, a Post-Infinite Crisis Key is just a possibility, nothing definite.

 

[Antvasima]

So what is left to do here?

 

[Teezar]

Nothing.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Is it fine if I close this thread Firestorm808?

 

[Firestorm808]

Sure.

 

[Firestorm808]

One more message from Fan.

At the very least, Zero Hour and Infinite Crisis would apply to everyone stat-wise due to the history being retconned and feats do get more impressive in the first place. At the time of Hunter/Prey etc he was still stable but it was only during the parasite storyline when he was bulking up due to excess radiation so he just shaved off what he couldn't control but was still stronger and more powerful than he was pre-death. Also, fact is, Superman was weaker at the beginning reality cannot be denied everyone was weaker even Green Lanterns, they at best peaked at planet level And this stood for a while and this would apply for characters like Dominus too, should he get a profile Dominus wouldn't be High 4-C to 4-B just because Superman at the end of Post Crisis is 4-B Some one-off characters never came close to end of Post-Crisis Superman's power level Cythonnia is likely only 4-C to high 4-C tops just if we assume she scales to Rao, otherwise she again was fighting a much weaker Superman who at the time had no stellar feats. That's where the crux of this comes in Characters who would be added who aren't 4-B will be given 4-B just because. When it makes no sense And without a metric to properly explain, users would be confused if a character like Dominus who is noted to physically match Superman is given 5-C or 5-B or whatever. Dominus is a character who has had enough stuff going on for him in his storyline to warrant a profile If we really need to use the Marvel Standards Around 7-B at the beginning of Post Crisis, up to High 4-C to 4-B by the end of Post Crisis (Grew in power over the course of Post Crisis through many power-ups and soft retcons) Simply put if we can note Superman and co were weaker and got stronger as the story went by, and we note for villains who'd be weaker than High 4-C/4-B as happening earlier, that is good enough for me.

I honestly want to be done with DC beyond the occasional debunking tier 3-1 feats; I am more focused on researching Warhammer 40k, Doctor Who, Xeelee Sequence, and Halo. So I won't bother further debating on the matter as much as I could, and even if I conceded DaRoS and the training before OWaW, Zero Hour and Infinite Crisis still affected all characters' histories and retconned stuff such that they achieved more impressive feats earlier and in general made their outlooks and feats more impressive going forward. I can even explain the case of Fourth World Characters: they are on emanations of God Sphere places that are just as susceptible to crises and cosmic events as the main universe (See how Highfather feared the events of Zero Hour, how Darkseid sought it to get involved in the Imperiex wars, and how other Apokolipses were created for the other 52 universes after the Infinite Crisis). However, I digress and just ask if this could be possible; unlike Marvel which just goes on and on with inconsistent power scaling ad infinitum until someone finally decides to retcon the character potentially, DC has had a forward progression that changes the dynamic. If Zark's Marvel suggestion is used for DC, at the very least have it written like "Around 7-B at the beginning of Post Crisis, up to High 4-C to 4-B by the end of Post Crisis (Grew in power over the course of Post Crisis through many power-ups and soft retcons. Has had x feats at the beginning, but is capable of y feats by the end)" for characters. Furthermore, one-off characters should scale to the feats available at the time. Dominus (Ignoring his reality-warping hax), for example, should not be 4-B just because Post Crisis Superman was 4-B by the end of Post Crisis. He should be relative to the feats of Superman and co at the time, which was about planetary. That should be kept in mind if characters such as Dominus come in. That's all I want to say. Just don't deny they were concertedly weaker at first.

 

[Antvasima]

FanofRPGs makes sense to me.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

Eh I'm fine with a Byrne-era Superman key (or just it being acknowledged on his profile in general). He was so new to his powers by that point that I feel like even without the statements, it's a much safer assumption than saying "history being rewritten = power amps". Downgrading earlier-on villains is probably fine too, though I'm not sure what the cut-off would be.

 

[Hellbeast]

I’m not big on too many keys but “Early Post Crisis” (maybe list when the capoff is), “Post Death of Superman” and “Post Our World’s At War” could be neat

 

[Antvasima]

Eh I'm fine with a Byrne-era Superman key (or just it being acknowledged on his profile in general). He was so new to his powers by that point that I feel like even without the statements, it's a much safer assumption than saying "history being rewritten = power amps". Downgrading earlier-on villains is probably fine too, though I'm not sure what the cut-off would be.

I think that he was relatively low-powered until his first death.

I’m not big on too many keys but “Early Post Crisis” (maybe list when the capoff is), “Post Death of Superman” and “Post Our World’s At War” could be neat

That could work, yes.

 

[Firestorm808]

Thank you for the input. Is somebody willing to handle removing the Void Hound feat then?

I just remembered this now. Can you unlock the page?

 

[Saiyan40009]

a question that was decided thread

 

[Westcoast5005]

Off topic but is superboy prime ap 5-d or 6-d

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Off topic but is superboy prime ap 5-d or 6-d

We have a questions thread ya know? Afaik, he scales to 5-D

 

[Antvasima]

I just remembered this now. Can you unlock the page?

Okay. Tell me here when you are done.

 

[Firestorm808]

Okay. Tell me here when you are done.

Done.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. Should I close this thread?

 

[Firestorm808]

Thank you. Should I close this thread?

Sure.