Possible Tier 4 and MFTL+ Kirito (CONCLUDED)

[Xmark12]

"SAO takes place inside virtual realities, literal video games. The notion that a video game would realistically contain and process an entire universe's worth of space, rather than rely on conventions like pre-rendered backdrops, and not rendering anything at all between planets and stars (Not unlike No Man's Sky in a way) is crazy."

The Underworld is NOT a video game. It's an entire simulation. The Soul Translator (the device to enter the Underworld) uses a person's soul to visualize everything inside of the world, making it indistinguishable from reality. NOTHING is not rendered. Everything, even outside of a person's vision, is completely, 100% rendered.

Instead of using polygons and such, the Underworld uses essentially imaginatio to render the entire world. Think of it like a dream essentially, but it's always constantly active just like reality.

Also, Kirito does NOT cap out at tier 6 either. Even with his tier 6 feat, he previously was said to absorb over 100,000 stars, which places him nicely at 4-C to 4-B. People said this was an outlier before, however now there's PLENTY of tier 4 feats for Kirito to go off of. Also in this thread there are more tier 4 feats, though they need scans.

 

[Kepekley23]

It's literally an NPC Creature in a video game, though. That's its backstory in the game.

Also, there was a past thread about SAO's Tier 4 feats and the same conclusion was reached, that there's no proof that the stars and nebulae simulated are anywhere as big as real stars and nebulae:

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1904280

If there is temperature and planetary debris in the outer space, then the assumption that there are no renders inbetween the planetary systems doesn't hold up.

 

[DMUA]

As for Kirito going MFTL+, it's clearly not something that scales to his regular speed in combat. He had to create machines that travel across interstellar distances, and likely crosses them through the same mechanism that such machines do as well.

.... This seems like you're just making blind assumptions on a media you've never consumed. Which is something I have done myself, but, I think that only emphasizes how much of a bad idea that is.

Kirito himself fought and is comparable in speed to the Abyssal terror. Not much else to say.

 

[Xmark12]

Also I made a comment above...

Kinda got ghosted. A lot.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"The Underworld is NOT a video game. It's an entire simulation. The Soul Translator (the device to enter the Underworld) uses a person's soul to visualize everything inside of the world, making it indistinguishable from reality. NOTHING is not rendered. Everything, even outside of a person's vision, is completely, 100% rendered."

I mean, The Matrix from the eponymous movie is indistinguishible from reality but it's still a simulation that's not actually physical, and we don't assume that the whole universe is simulated in it even though it is a replica of the real world.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also the "moving stars" feat is the only feat I saw that would also be Tier 4 and it was dismissed as unquantifiable back in July due to the nature of the game as a simulation.

 

[Xmark12]

However it's clear that space is completely rendered in the Underworld, seeing as how mechadragons can cross space within 10 minutes, the Abyssal Horror "has adapted to survive in the extremely cold environment of outer space", Kirito being able to travel in space, Kirito being able to casually shake planets within space (which still needs a scan @Kuroiha), etc.

 

[DMUA]

I mean, The Matrix from the eponymous movie is indistinguishible from reality but it's still a simulation that's not actually physical, and we don't assume that the whole universe is simulated in it even though it is a replica of the real world.

Matrix never goes into space or describes how it is in detail. False equivalency when Underworld goes into space which is indeed simulated.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also:

"Alice got intuition that the stars were the power of the hearts of all the people living in this world."
This puts a damp on the stars being real stars like our universe.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Friendly reminder to keep things civil here.

 

[Kepekley23]

It is civil so far, for a nice and refreshing change.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

We are being civil. I'm just understandably skeptic about Kirito suddenly jumping to 4-A.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I know it's civil now, I am just putting that here as well....a friendly reminder before the possibility of...things happening can happen.

 

[Xmark12]

Yeah, this is surprisingly civil, considering SAO is extremely divisive. Anyways,

A: It's her intuition.

B: Stars are simply metaphors for the hearts of everyone in the world, considering my next point.

C: Planets are fully simulated in the Underworld, so stars being fully simulated isn't a stretch as well.

Also that's taken from the scene when he was being powered by the world, which has a lot of flowery text/metaphors. The stuff after with Star King Kirito and Star Queen Asuna don't have that, and clearly state that actual planets are being shaken and actual stars are being moved.

Actually since Kuroiha hasn't responded yet, I'll find more star/planet/solar system feats.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

How do these prove? The former is just cross-time in the simulation, the second is just the backstory of a creature in the simulation.

 

[FateAlbane]

I'm more concerned with the chance of this being outlierish.

It is quite the sudden jump, so. Is it?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Xmark

I find it far harder to believe that a star would be fully simulated over a planet. The sheer power that would be needed to process something of that side nevermind properly simulate gravitational pulls makes me sincerely doubt it. This is more something I'd expect from a hyper-advanced civilization in a sci-fi setting. But what do I know.

I can buy planets all being simulated.

Can I see all the supposed feats for Star King Kirito? Like, including the planet thingy.

 

[DMUA]

I'm more concerned with the chance of this being outlierish.

It is quite the sudden jump, so. Is it?

SAO and other VRMMORPGs are completely unconnected to the Underworld, and Underworld is pretty liberal with it's Tier 4 forkery, so it shouldn't really be an outlier.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

But isn't Kirito's Sword Art Online Avatar stated to be stronger than his Underworld Avatar?

 

[Ywlrvl]

Stated.

I mean, The Matrix from the eponymous movie is indistinguishible from reality but it's still a simulation that's not actually physical, and we don't assume that the whole universe is simulated in it even though it is a replica of the real world.

It is simulated. The fact that "Underworld took to the stars" and is now an interstellar, space-faring civilization that lives in two solar systems should be enough.

Underworld is also split up and lives on two seperate planets now, has established an "Underworld Space Force", created starports/space stations, etc.

Stars aren't that much of a stretch, yes, because they literally travel back and forth stars.

As for Kirito going MFTL+, it's clearly not something that scales to his regular speed in combat. He had to create machines that travel across interstellar distances, and likely crosses them through the same mechanism that such machines do as well.

I literally said he wasn't using any machines. He was legit flying in outer space.

Kirito himself outspeeds the Abyssal Horror, of which outspeeds fully accelerated Mechadragons, of which can travel between stars in ten minutes casually.

And yes, that scene was from when he was powered by the world. This is Star King Kirito, an entirely different Kirito.

 

[Ywlrvl]

And don't forget, this is Star King Kirito. An entirely different versio person.

Not the current EoA Kirito.

 

[DMUA]

But isn't Kirito's Sword Art Online Avatar stated to be stronger than his Underworld Avatar?

Physically.

That doesn't account for release recollection, enhance armament, or writers being full of forkery and contradicting statements via feats storming to say "no u" in the fashion of... Whatever verse ARLF likes where statements are 2-A and feats are 6-A or something. Of course, that's a bit more extreme then this, but.

 

[FateAlbane]

If this isn't an outlier, sure.

@DMUA /\ Then I share this opinion.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't question Underworld having several planets, I question all of space being fully simulated and on the same scale as our own space.

 

[Ywlrvl]

Sorry for the late reply.

Underworld is an entirely different universe.

I focused and produced a defensive globe of Luminous Elements,

then surrounded all three of us with it.

The moment we were engulfed by its faint glitter, the bone-

chilling cold finally left us for good.

I exhaled and surveyed the unthinkable scene before my eyes

again.

Stars of breathtaking density stretched in a band from top right to

the bottom left of my vision. I suppose you could call it the Milky

Way, but no matter how I lined up the potently glowing stars, I

could not recognize a single familiar constellation from the real

world.

This was Underworld, all right.

I find it hard to believe there's that much detail and it's not simulated.

Also, there's literally no reason why if the solar systems and stars they were zooming past at lightspeed were simulated, all of space isn't.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Stars of breathtaking density stretched in a band from top right to the bottom left of my vision. I suppose you could call it the Milky Way, but no matter how I lined up the potently glowing stars, I could not recognize a single familiar constellation from the real world.
I mean, this description could apply to any skybox in a videogame.

 

[Xmark12]

Actually I'm beginning to question whether the universe in the Underworld is the same size as our universe too, however I am still 100% sure that the stars in the Underworld are real. Here are some statements/feats that I was able to find:

"The Underworld Space Force was required to follow rules and
regulations to the letter, but even their spartan instructors would
be unable to monitor outside of the atmosphere. Plus, the three-hour journey to their destination, companion star Admina, meant
that minor mishaps were well expected."

"Finally, having treaded all of Caldina, the King turned his attentio
to the vastness of space.

Repeated improvements upon the mechadragons finally enabled
them to escape the atmosphere.

Near Solus, he discovered another star that formed a pair with
Caldina, and christened it Admina.

After creating a periodic route for interstellar large mechadrago
transit, and not long after establishing the first Admina settlement,
he was elected first Star King of Underworld."

"Unlike most other Legendary Beasts, the Abyssal Horror utterly
rejected human attempts at communication. It seemed to be
constituted solely from an impulse to kill and destroy; as soon as
it saw her mechadragon currently in interstellar travel, it would
make a beeline and devour her completely."

"According to observations conducted later, after patrolling back
and forth between the two stars at the same speed and on the
same route and then considering the matter for a while, the space
beast decided to allow all mechadragons to undergo interstellar
travel under the condition that they would avoid times in which
they would come into contact with it."

"Each piece of faint Umbral Element was only tens of cen long and
completely incomparable to the immense size of the original body,
were wriggling irregularly like a swarm of flies and attempting to
flee.

Records indicated that in the past, the King had once also pushed
that beast to this extent.

But the Abyssal Horror had ultimately avoided destruction after
being reduced to thousands of fragments, finally escaped to the
edges of the universe, healed its wounds, and attacked the route
once more."

Also this picture here demonstrates that normal stars do exist in the Underworld, and it's not a skybox, considering the group was able to interact with them:

Also remember: The Underworld is NOT a videogame. It does not use a skybox anyways. It's all powered by the soul essentially visualizing everything to make said world basically a reality.

 

[Ywlrvl]

I mean, this description could apply to any skybox in a videogame.

And on the same scale and detail as Underworld?

That scan I just posted was before SK Kirito.

During SK Kirito's era, Underworld was literally an interstellar civilization traveling across solar systems. (AKA those "unfamiliar stars" described by original Kirito)

Like I previously said, there's literally no reason why stars and space shouldn't be simulated at this point.

 

[Ywlrvl]

@Xmark

"Edges of the universe" is hyperbole.

 

[Xmark12]

Yeah, still doubting the scale of the Underworld's universe, but solar systems and stars do exist in the Underworld.

 

[Xmark12]

So what's the general concensus here?

 

[Ywlrvl]

MFTL+ is probably agreed on. It's pretty solid, if you ask me.

4-A is still in discussion.

 

[DMUA]

Oh yeah, I should probably make a blog post for MFTL+ and Possibly 4-B

Next year probably

 

[SomebodyData]

"Kirito is also getting a new profile entirely for Alicization."

^What's this about?

 

[DMUA]

User:Xmark12/Sandbox

Basically to avoid main Kirito being an absolute clusterfork we're moving the Alictization stuff to a new profile

Also we'll devert mockery since it's not the main Kirito profile and people won't know where to look for Tier 4 SAO

 

[SomebodyData]

I mean, unless there's like 10 tabs, we're not supposed to. (Tried the same with Samus Ara)

 

[DMUA]

Doesn't Samus have 1 per every armor or whatnot?

This is 3 different stinking keys for one solitary variant which is much different from all the others

 

[Xmark12]

Also Star King Kirito and End of Alicization (EoA)/Current Kirito are completely different people leading completely different lives, so it's safe to say we could put them in different profiles, since they have different experiences.

 

[Gemmysaur]

Hot damn. Gone for a day, and SAO went full DBZ.

I'm gonna have to read all this first before I make up my thoughts.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Hmmm... '''Well then''' . I... Never would've expected this.... At all. I'll wait for more opinions from moderators before giving my opinion.