Possible Overwatch Downgrade

[WeeklyBattles]

The hypersonic feat was performed in a cinematic my guy, i posted a link of it above

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

An in-game cutscene based on a game animation. Like I said.

I'm heading to work now, so I'll be back in some hours. I hope there's a good argument left in my absence, or at the very least a bit of evidence from the lore that supports us using a game animation to justify AP.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I see no reason why they would exaggerate the events that happened in-canon for no reason

Both Blackwatch and Overwatch canonically fought the heavy assault units

 

[WeeklyBattles]

>Many of the feats shown above are also far more consistent with something to the effect of 9-B or, if I'm being very generous, 9-A.

Im sorry but you cant be serious. You have to ignore dozens upon dozens of feats to even begin to argue that theyre anything less than 8-C. 9-B is downplay of the highest and most ridiculous degree.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Okay, so:

Zarya's Feat:

Im genuinely unsure what you guys are looking for, the state of the door is in the calculation itself, there are pictures of it and everything. Here is the full comic, the feat happens starting at page 8, see for yourself.

Hammond:

Hammond's High 8-C feat actually comes from his cinematic, from this calc of his pod crashing to earth from space. The in-game feat youre thinking of was only calced at 8-C+

Genji and Doomfist

Yes, Genji taking more damage from impacting the car is how it is portrayed in the cinematic and how it is shown to work in the game (Rocket Punch deals 100 damage normally and a bonus 150 damage if the target is punched into a solid object). Youre honestly jumping through a lot of hoops and making some crazy assumptions to try to delegitimize this feat my guy. Doomfist and Genji are not indurable, Genji tanked the initial punch and was only taken down due to hitting the car afterwards. Doomfist's punch is not weaker than its feat it performed just because he did not instantly oneshot Genji with it, im not sure where you even get this idea from. You seem to have this per-conceived and inaccurate notion that Doomfist is the strongest character in the verse, so anyone who doesnt instantly get oneshot is questionable when this couldnt be further from the truth.

D.va'c Calc

Im just bringing it up because i was just made aware of its existence from another user.

Orisa scales above Bastion who is 1. Superior to normal Null Sector troops who can tank crashing to the ground at hypersonic speeds with little issue 2. capable of killing Tracer who scales to Genji who took Doomfist's punches. Orisa is also superior to OR14s that fought Tracer, Torbjorn, and Mercy during the Omnic Crisis, with Tracer and Mercy having fought Talon Heavy Assault Units, as well as Reinhardt, as older OR14 units were able to fight on par with Reinhardt and kill people comparable to him, with Reinhardt being able to oneshot Bastions. Plus in a conversation between Orisa and Doomfist, Orisa confirms that she was rebuilt far stronger than the OR15 units that Doomfist destroyed. So no, Orisa is not High 8-C solely for indirectly scaled to Winston, she has numerous legitimate reasons to scale to High 8-C.

Bastion:

Never said Bastion scaled to Orisa nor did i say that Rein scales to Orisa. Bastion is fully capable of killing Rein with its Guns, he had to overpower them physically to kill them, same with Tracer, Torb, and Mercy. Its guns are stronger than itself physically.

>And now that we've clarified that Doomfist did, in fact, put Genji out of commission with a single attack.

This is a hard no. It is an inarguable fact that he did not.

76

You dont have to be superior to something in order to scale to it my guy, not sure why you think you do. We have thousands of characters on this wiki who scale in durability for being hurt by attacks but not killed by them.

Winston:

If youre in a state of near unconsciousness after having been electrocuted for several seconds and then shot in the face multiple times to the point of being near unconscious already then yes, you would be, but even if you want to ignore that it would be at best PIS.

His non-primal rage form wasnt harmed by Talon soldiers, where are you getting the idea that it was? Not even going to bother responding to the rest of this paragraph as its based off of a pure falsehood.

Funny thing is, he physically lifted it off of himself seconds later when he attacked Reaper in turn, so no, its not like he cannot lift it or move it physically. He was already in a state of being nearly unconscious when he got hit in the head.

Also, fun thing to note, Doomfist's trailer actually confirms that Winston defeated Doomfist in single combat as per the newspaper articles written about the event.

McCree

Please dont be snarky, this is a serious discussion not the Fun and Games board. As for your arguments:

1. Your point being? He still shot through a solid steel chain that is both thicker and more durable than a street sign.

2. You do know that Omnics arent made entirely of glass right? They still have plenty of metal in their heads as shown in The Last Bastion and Honor and Glory where they show Omnics having their heads busted open.

3. Not only is it not even remotely implied that he had to shoot weak points, but the weak points on an omnic would still be made of steel my guy, even if they would be weaker compared to the rest of an Omnic theyre still more durable than a random aluminum street sign.

4. So youre not going to acknowledge that he shot the omnic in the video in the chest?

So in summary there is still overwhelmig evidence of these characters being 8-C+ to High 8-C , many details have been ignored, explained incorrectly, or just plain excluded for no legitimate reason. That couple with the fact that for some bizzare reason gameplay is being treated as a reason against scaling when all of the characters in the verse scale to each other through lore makes me believe that you have little to no understanding of the verse as a whole and are solely going off of what you are seeing out of context.

And has since failed to replicate anything on that level. Not when the verse's scaling is treated reasonably.

So you are going to just completely throw the concept of powerscaling out the window for no reason whatsoever. Good to know.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Basically i can agree that some characters would be 8-C-8-C+ based on lower showings but anything less than that is horrendous downplay that essentially places one instance of PIS over dozens of consistently higher showings of feats

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Hmmm. So like yesterday, I have some smaller bits to tackle before I get to the "meat" of Weekly's argument here (although reading through it, it's more akin to a bare brisket with some leftover skin and scraps sticking to it), so I'll be dedicating this smaller post to that before pumping my time into matching the larger post.

• "I see no reason why they would exaggerate the events that happened in-canon for no reason"

"Writers can't do math" and "this is a game animation" are all the reasons you need. It's an in-game "this boss is showing up, so get ready" sequence where he apparently catches fire from freefall even though an OR-14 (which you yourself have described as being similarly heavy) failed to do the same when falling in a canon cinematic.

• "Both Blackwatch and Overwatch canonically fought the heavy assault units"

So that means they scale in your eyes, right? Because now we have a paradox of logic; if they all scale to Heavy Assault units, that would go against what gameplay shows us, which is that Heavy Assault units are capable of teambusting an entire group of these heroes while running solo unles the latter group puts a considerable amount of teamwork and effort into wearing them down over time.

So it's one or the other now; if we're using gameplay, that means just one of these 8-C+ hypersonic-falling super-soldiers can wipe the floor with an entire team of Overwatch heroes by himself and laugh off damage from them with contemptuous ease, which would by definition exempt everyone you can play as from scaling to them in any way, shape or form. Alternatively, if we're scaling them to the aforementioned super-soldiers, that means what happens in-game runs entirely contradictory to the lore (as I've said) and shouldn't be used to justify scaling or AP.

• "Im sorry but you cant be serious. You have to ignore dozens upon dozens of feats to even begin to argue that theyre anything less than 8-C. 9-B is downplay of the highest and most ridiculous degree."

You haven't even mentioned one dozen Tier 8 calcs, so this is a clear exaggeration. And I ca be serious; nearly everything the characters do and go through in the cinematics makes more sense in the context of Tier 9 than it does within the context of Tier 8, including many of them legitimately not withstanding things that approach the latter tier. You can accuse me of downplay all you want, but until you show hard evidence of the characters consistently surviving Tier 8 damage without just scaling them all to the highest showings you have, you're just spewing hot air at that point.

• "That couple with the fact that for some bizzare reason gameplay is being treated as a reason against scaling when all of the characters in the verse scale to each other through lore--"

They don't all scale to each other through lore. That's the problem. Lower-ranking characters like Mei, Tracer and Lucio are not holding their own against the likes of Reinhardt and Doomfist anytime soon, especially when stronger characters than them canonically get their shit kicked in by the latter two.

• "Please dont be snarky, this is a serious discussion not the Fun and Games board."

This thread is full of instances of you being just as brash and snarky as I've been-- and judging from the larger post you've made, you haven't exactly slowed down-- so forgive me if I find this a bit hypocritical. Our debate has shown you being just as smart-mouthed as you often are to a person (yes, me) who's established that he'll turn what people say into a joke if the tone of the conversation leans that way, so you can either admit that to yourself and keep things more neutral from now on (and from there I'll make an effort to do so as well, as I often do when people aren't sardonic around me), or you can keep delivering your own snark and giving me reason to do the same. But pointing fingers at mine while maintaining yours isn't going to help you. Attend to the splinter in your own eye before you reach for the one in mine.

And before you try to throw this one back at me, you waited to say this response of yours until long after I already told Andy I'd dial back my sarcasm. This point of contention was already settled, so you adding to it is unnecessary and invites criticism.

Now, if you'll give me some time, I'll be giving these other, more important points my full attention in the next post I write.

 

[Drite77]

TBH, the Zarya feat doesn't look like melting since we never get a clear shot of the feat

 

[Drite77]

And the Doomfist's Crater thing problaby needs to use Concrete values for it, that is 40 to Pulv and 17-20 for V. Frag

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

This was going to be in the big post I'm still working on, but since you've brought it up, I guess I can address it now.

• "Im genuinely unsure what you guys are looking for, the state of the door is in the calculation itself, there are pictures of it and everything. Here is the full comic, the feat happens starting at page 8, see for yourself."

Another trap of mine Weekly just sort of walked into. Him giving everyone else the comic to read on their own helps me make my answer to this loud and clear.

In the blog, we see a pixel-scale image of Zarya's proportions, an image of the size of the door, and an image of no door left. In the comic itself (mind you, I tracked down and read the whole thing a couple of weeks ago on a site where I would actually be able to grab the images for further use, because I knew this feat was going to come up once I finally got around to addressing this verse's current problems), we see the panel with the door, a panel of her blasting at the door while the latter is off-panel, the panel of her staring at where the door used to be, and then...no indication of what actually happened to the door itself.

Weekly championed for "melting" and/or "vaporizing" based on this?

Because if so, we see no evidence that the door was melted, only that she blasted it and now it's missing. It could have easily been blasted out of view or otherwise damaged in a manner inferior to melting and vaporization. We don't know...or at least, we don't know when only looking at that scan by itself.

With that in mind, this is how Zarya's Particle Cannon functions, as per the Overwatch Wiki:

The primary fire, when held down, shoots out a hitscan beam that deals continuous damage to the first enemy it hits. The secondary fire consumes more ammunition and shoots out a grenade-like ball of energy that detonates when it hits an enemy or solid surface, dealing damage in an area.
	~ Zarya's Overwatch Wiki page​

This is clearly describing gameplay, but considering she's used both of those firemodes in this same comic, we can definitely judge based on this. The scan I just linked obviously shows no "grenade-like ball of energy", so she used the weapon's primary attack.

The same primary attack gets used again here, and the walls made of what can assumed to be concrete (which has a much lower melting point than any metal) do not show signs of melting at all. In fact, her weapon physically cracks them rather than doing any visible heat-related damage.

You'll notice I'm not arguing that her weapon "only cracks concrete walls and therefore can't possibly destroy steel". No, what I'm arguing is that her "melting" the door is a completely fallacious assumption in-context, because this comic does not portray her weapon as being one that deals that sort of damage to what it hits, much less that level of said damage.

This calc is unusable.

A follow-up post addressing the other points raised is in the works. Be back with it in due time.

 

[Drite77]

And the Doomfist's Crater thing problaby needs to use Concrete values for it, that is 40 to Pulv and 17-20 for V. Frag

Using those vallues and the same volume, i got this results:

V. Frag (Low-End): 0,196992782027 Tons of TNT, 9-A+

V. Frag (Mid-End): 0,214374498088 Tons of TNT, 9-A+

V. Frag (High-End): 0,231756214149 Tons of TNT, 9-A+

Pulverization: 0,4635124282983 Tons of TNT, 8-C

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

...So that's two more calcs supporting High 8-C obliterated.

And we're not done. Not by quite some ways.

 

[Drite77]

TBF, even if they get downscaled to Doomfist V. Frag, they would be very high into 9-A, which is nice

 

[Drite77]

So, currently, the only High 8-C feat is the Reentry feat one?

 

[Wokistan]

I have unexpected real life obligations to take care of so I'll keep tjis just to the one thing, but saying "genji didn't get one shot by doomfist because he crashed into a car" makes no sense at all. Who do you think is responsible for imparting the force on him that hit him into that car? Still all energy coning from the strike of doomfist. That's like saying if i threw a guy's head into the ground snd cracked his skull open it doesn't count because I used the ground.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

"The Doom Slayer doesn't scale beyond the Cyberdemon because he had to kill it with its own horn."

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I haven't been following the thread, but I did seem comments on both sides. And I will say I think Mr King is being reasonable here. I will point out that game mechanics tend to make scaling far too all over the place an messy since their extremely unrealistic and inconsistent. Since there are far too many things that generate more energy but give less damage than other weapons due to having different nature/properties of how the attack works. Such as 9-C to 9-B bullets doing more damage due to having more penetration than some 9-A heat based weapon designed to vaporize bodies. Or Big explosions being explicitly designed for destroying large vehicles when smaller targets don't fully scale due to being smaller targets and inverse square law not making it as impressive as it looks.

I have to go to work soon, but I do got more info on occuring problems for verses like this. Two characters trading blows with their swords or punching each other in the face is a different story.

 

[Drite77]

Another thing that is against Scaling everyone to High 8-C is that Tracer's gun can't even damage Doom fist

 

[AidenBrooks999]

So basically the verse would have most low tiers at 9-B, right? At least physically, their AP with weapon would be higher

Even higher feats, like Doomfist's 9-A to 8-C doesn't mean much when he was portayed as way stronger than characters like Tracer and Genji, only Berserk Winston being able to defeat him

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

@Weekly

It's time for the remainder of this to be put to rest. I have no problem answering all of these in order of appearance, so here goes nothing.

Seriously. Nothing.

• "Hammond's High 8-C feat actually comes from his cinematic, from this calc of his pod crashing to earth from space."

Oh right, this calc. I forgot about this. Thanks for bringing it up, because now that I look at it, it has problems as well.

Here's the start of those problems:

Should note that the pod is mostly undamaged by this and Hammond adds multiple layers of armor onto it after he crashes to earth.
	~ You, 2019​

Excuse me? If that's the case, how did you get High 8-C KE from the original pod moving at "catching on fire" speeds when the current, upgraded pod moving at similar speed only resulted in 8-C+ numbers?

...Unless you went with the velocity mentioned here, which is around 7,800 m/s? Just going by the context of the article, that's a typical re-entry speed for low-orbit satellites, which are generally much larger than Hammond's space pod. And that matters, because size and weight affect re-entry speed drastically.

You'd have been much better off using the minimum speed required to catch fire while moving. Of course that would never give you High 8-C numbers, but oh well.

• "Yes, Genji taking more damage from impacting the car is how it is portrayed in the cinematic and how it is shown to work in the game--"

Wok just handled this one as well as I ever could have.

• "Im just bringing it up because i was just made aware of its existence from another user."

It's still irrelevant until someone official accepts it over the one we currently use.

• "Orisa scales above Bastion who is 1. Superior to normal Null Sector troops who can tank crashing to the ground at hypersonic speeds with little issue 2. capable of killing Tracer who scales to Genji who took Doomfist's punches--"

Took one punch and got his shit ruined, you mean.

Also, normal Null Sector troops tanking hypersonic ground-crashes? Surely, if you slow down this video you linked earlier, you won't miss those drop pods said Null Sector troops are travelling in. Kind of hard to tank something when you're contained in a shell that basically takes the damage for you.

Also, this is gameplay again.

• "Orisa is also superior to OR14s that fought Tracer, Torbjorn, and Mercy during the Omnic Crisis"

They're inferior to the likes of Bastion, so this doesn't matter. (I'll be getting to that bit in a moment, btw)

• "as well as Reinhardt, as older OR14 units were able to fight on par with Reinhardt and kill people comparable to him"

So that means Reinhardt is inferior to Doomfist, who eats those OR-14s and their superior OR-15 counterparts for breakfast.

• "Plus in a conversation between Orisa and Doomfist, Orisa confirms that she was rebuilt far stronger than the OR15 units that Doomfist destroyed."

Irrelevant, considering the people she's superior to still don't have proper scaling to him.

• "Never said Bastion scaled to Orisa nor did i say that Rein scales to Orisa."

Neither did I. I said Bastion doesn't scale to Doomfist, because Rein and the OR-14s/15s, who are all superior to Bastion by some order of magnitude, don't scale to Doomfist either.

• "Bastion is fully capable of killing Rein with its Guns, he had to overpower them physically to kill them"

This shows the exact opposite. Reinhardt's armor gives the finger to an entire army of Bastion units' guns. They can't even so much as dent it.

Our German friend schooled these Bastion units on this fact, and now he's here to school you as well.

• "You dont have to be superior to something in order to scale to it my guy, not sure why you think you do. We have thousands of characters on this wiki who scale in durability for being hurt by attacks but not killed by them."

Yet another argument I never made. I stated that he's not superior to a grenade that failed to destroy several nearby houses and caused an explosion that would be 9-A at the absolute best on its lonesome. To actually counter my argument, you'd have to prove that 76 scales to High 8-C through other means besides that grenade. And you haven't.

• "If youre in a state of near unconsciousness after having been electrocuted for several seconds and then shot in the face multiple times to the point of being near unconscious already then yes"

Electrocuted for several seconds by Talon troopers who are by definition nowhere near High 8-C, then shot several times by a person whose guns have been survived by other characters below High 8-C. Was my point.

• "His non-primal rage form wasnt harmed by Talon soldiers, where are you getting the idea that it was?"

Electrocuted by them for several seconds, just like you said. He doesn't go into Primal Rage until after that.

• "Funny thing is, he physically lifted it off of himself seconds later when he attacked Reaper in turn, so no, its not like he cannot lift it or move it physically. He was already in a state of being nearly unconscious when he got hit in the head."

Your point? That doesn't change the fact that he was hurt by it when it fell on him. It doesn't matter how much damage you take; if you're High 8-C, something like a space pod falling onto you from a few feet is several orders of magnitude weaker than even the weakest blunt force you can be hurt by. Something that far below you won't knock you out no matter how injured you are.

• "Also, fun thing to note, Doomfist's trailer actually confirms that Winston defeated Doomfist in single combat as per the newspaper articles written about the event."

Huh. Good on you for pointing out something I actually hadn't noticed. Now you just need to prove that Doomfist physically scales to the damage his gauntlet does, and then you'll have some actual basis for why Winston off-screening him should equate to Winston being High 8-C.

....Actually, no you won't. Because Doomfist's High 8-C calc just got fixed, and the true result is nowhere near that high now.

• "1. Your point being? He still shot through a solid steel chain that is both thicker and more durable than a street sign."

Probably the only solid argument you've made at all, but, point taken. Shame that breaking a chain isn't a Tier 8 feat, or this might actually matter.

• " You do know that Omnics arent made entirely of glass right? They still have plenty of metal in their heads as shown in The Last Bastion and Honor and Glory where they show Omnics having their heads busted open."

You don't need to have a Tier 8 gun to shoot through a metal person of that size no matter where you shoot them, so this doesn't matter much anyway. (Especially since the Omnic he shot has even less proof of Tier 8 scaling than anyone else thanks to being a bit character who dies before he can do anything) But the fact that he aimed for a weak point still matters when that same animation could have just shown him vaguely shooting him in the head instead.

• "So youre not going to acknowledge that he shot the omnic in the video in the chest?"

No, because unfortunately, the screenshots and what I've drawn attention to in them show us otherwise.

• "So in summary there is still overwhelmig evidence of these characters being 8-C+ to High 8-C , many details have been ignored, explained incorrectly, or just plain excluded for no legitimate reason."

Not anymore there isn't, and I've explained everything as factually and to-the-point as I could. You not liking my points doesn't change that, and the many arguments I never actually made that you've set up in your post don't change that either.

• "So you are going to just completely throw the concept of powerscaling out the window for no reason whatsoever. Good to know."

Your concept of powerscaling seems to be much different from mine, and I find it to be illogical in-context. So yes, you could say that I'm throwing it out the window. "For no reason whatsoever" is patently false, though.

Widowmaker tanking a hit from his gauntlet while some child was wielding it still means nothing since, without gameplay and misuse of scaling in place, she has no other showings that put her on that level.

I believe that's everything. Nothing important seems to have changed, though.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

So basically the verse would have most low tiers at 9-B, right? At least physically, their AP with weapon would be higher
Even higher feats, like Doomfist's 9-A to 8-C doesn't mean much when he was portayed as way stronger than characters like Tracer and Genji, only Berserk Winston being able to defeat him

My opinions exactly.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

So, judging from what's gone on in this thread between myself and Weekly, I highly, highly doubt that this revision is going to be defeated or turned aside by any further arguments, nor will the information and evidence I've presented which supports the need for said revision. We could keep this up, but I'll be blunt about it; this revision shouldn't go nowhere just so we can continue this lengthy and time-consuming debate of ours. Not when said debate has done nothing to defeat the initial point of this revision, which is that the characters are all ranked far too high and scaled in an absolutely ridiculous and roundabout fashion.

I support the OP's proposal of a change. That is final.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

Another good feat would be the shockwave that Doomfist's gauntlet did when a kid used it to punch Widow (That may be high end 9-B) and would scale to almost everyone


And Winston (And Genji BARELY did, but with some damage to his body) took a punch from Doomfist's 9-A gauntlet during his trailer and Widow's and Reaper's weapons damaged him, so weaponry should be (in most cases) 9-A+

 

[Xulrev]

I must say, I had slight doubts going into this thread thus my initial comment.

MrKing has turned slight doubt into damn-near objective reality in my mind. Hes being very reasonable and citing all his objections in scans from the verse itself as well as using consistent logic in his argumentation.

Obviously Weekly should respond with any info that is missing but as it stands the entire verses scaling is pretty blatantly incorrect and based upon absurdly shaky ground, and ought to be redone outright.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

So basically the verse would have most low tiers at 9-B, right? At least physically, their AP with weapon would be higher

Even higher feats, like Doomfist's 9-A to 8-C doesn't mean much when he was portayed as way stronger than characters like Tracer and Genji, only Berserk Winston being able to defeat him

The low tiers would be 8-C+, the high tiers would be High 8-C

 

[AidenBrooks999]

@Weekly

Don't make this the SU downgrade all over again

@MrKing and about the speed? Hypersonic also comes from gameplay

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Another good feat would be the shockwave that Doomfist's gauntlet did when a kid used it to punch Widow (That may be high end 9-B) and would scale to almost everyone

And Winston (And Genji BARELY did, but with some damage to his body) took a punch from Doomfist's 9-A gauntlet during his trailer and Widow's and Reaper's weapons damaged him, so weaponry should be (in most cases) 9-A+

That first one could work well for lower tiers. As much as I really (really, really, really) hate using arguments mentioned in Death Battle, they made a very solid point about the fact that a child picking up the gauntlet and hitting someone with it shouldn't be nearly as devastating as if it were used by a guy like Doomfist who can kill robots and punch through walls with unaided physical might. The shockwave would scale to lower tiers, while Doomfist's usage of the gauntlet would be separate from that.

Winston's base scaling to the gauntlet doesn't work for me. As I mentioned before, he was sent out into the distance by a single hit from it, and was left unconscious for a completely indeterminate amount of time.

Genji absolutely shouldn't scale, considering just how badly he was damaged by a strike from the Gauntlet. That would be like saying a man who was hospitalized by a car crash should scale to the force that car delivered to his body.

@MrKing and about the speed? Hypersonic also comes from gameplay

Then I suggest we scale that to something from the cinematics or the comics. There are quite a few other speed feats to choose from that come from those.

Tracer has a very solid reactions feat in the form of teleporting (you know what I really mean) out of the way of a near-point-blank shot from Widowmaker's sniper rifle right after it was fired. That should work to provide something solid speed-wise.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

So Winston should have different Durability stats?

With his primal rage being more durable?

 

[Wokistan]

Primal rage being more durable and stronger makes sense to me. Works that way in both mediums of story and game so no inconsistency there.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

Although he wears the same armor

Which wasn't damaged by Doomfist, but it was by Widow's and Reaper's weapons

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Widow's damage to him wasn't that significant. He was able to have a brief conversation with some children while she was firing upon him, registering the shots with only some short and minor grunts of pain from them. A normal person experiences that same kind of brief and terribly annoying pain when stung by bees, but I mean...

Reaper is...odd, because his shotguns seem to just hurt everyone. The weapons might be stronger than he is physically when you look at that, but I don't know the extent.

It should be noted that Weekly was correct about Winston already having less energy than usual after being electrocuted by a bunch of Talon soldiers at once for an extended period, but that's still not the best explanation for why Reaper could just shoot him out of Primal Rage when he's clearly a lot stronger when that's active, not unless the guns could have done something to him in that form normally.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Finally, that brings us to the other calc, which is Mei's ice. However, this also has some problems, being

• She can't exactly use the ice wall offensively
• Ice itself isn't that durable, according to Bambu frag is like 1 j/cc. Just takes a lot of energy to make ice out of air, not nearly as much to break it

Just asking, would this affect other verses as well? There are some verses that use these kinds of calcs for their AP

 

[Wokistan]

There are probably other verses with problematic ice calcs, yeah. I think dargoo was planning a general thread but I guess feel free to bring up the issue where applicable

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

If there isn't any other context, and those freezing feats are performed by weapons/technology instead of the person themselves, then yes. The only reason that type of feat would scale to someone's physicals is if they performed the feat with some sort of innate powers of their own.

Sub-Zero is an example of a person who could absolutely gain an AP rating from a freezing feat, because that's literally his own power and energy being used to perform it. Someone using a freezing ray to achieve a similar freezing feat would be the opposite; inapplicable in just about every way that matters, because it's the weapon/tech doing the something it's designed to do, and there's no evidence of that required energy being usable for offensive purposes.

 

[DMUA]

Yes.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

"Writers can't do math" and "this is a game animation" are all the reasons you need.

Its not from an animation, its part of a newspaper article that was published following the incident.

"Both Blackwatch and Overwatch canonically fought the heavy assault units"

They scale to the Heavy Assault Units yes. And no, Blackwatch and Overwatch canonically fought, injured, and defeated these units during their missions, you would have to completely and totally disregard the verse's lore to argue otherwise. Nothing is contradictory to this.

You haven't even mentioned one dozen Tier 8 calcs...

Junkrat's explosives, Zarya's gun, Heavy assault, Devestator, OR14, doomfist punch, hammond crashing, 76 tanking overwatch's destruction, etc. Nothing they do makes sense as a tier 9 verse. I have given you tier 8 feats time and time again yet you ignore them for no reason.

They don't all scale to each other through lore.

They do all scale to each other through lore. Tracer held her own against Doom to the point that he had to BFR her because he couldnt hit her.

This thread is full of instances of you being just as brash and snarky as I've bee

I have not been brash or snarky once in this thread. Do us all a favor and cut the sarcasm entirely, it adds nothing to this.


Excuse me? If that's the case, how did you get High 8-C KE from the original pod moving at "catching on fire" speeds when the current, upgraded pod moving at similar speed only resulted in 8-C+ numbers?

Because Hammond's smaller pod was moving at a much higher velocity, thus making the KE higher.

Wok just handled this one as well as I ever could have.

Wok handled it incorrectly as he too ignored how it is thown to work both in the context of the cinematic and in th econtext of the game.

Took one punch and got his shit ruined, you mean.

Nope, i mean took Doomfists punches. If he got 'ruined' please show me where.

Also, normal Null Sector troops tanking hypersonic ground-crashes?

Yup, they tank crashing to the ground at Hypersonic speeds, i would highly advise watching this video again my guy because you, as you like to say, 'walked into my trap again.' There is no pod for the larger robot.

They're inferior to the likes of Bastion, so this doesn't matter. (I'll be getting to that bit in a moment, btw)

Nope, theyre able to fight and kill Bastions.

So that means Reinhardt is inferior to Doomfist, who eats those OR-14s and their superior OR-15 counterparts for breakfast.

Yes

Irrelevant, considering the people she's superior to still don't have proper scaling to him.

Not irrelivant but youre correct, she doesnt directly scale to him.

Neither did I. I said Bastion doesn't scale to Doomfist, because Rein and the OR-14s/15s, who are all superior to Bastion by some order of magnitude, don't scale to Doomfist either.

Correct

This shows the exact opposite. Reinhardt's armor gives the finger to an entire army of Bastion units' guns. They can't even so much as dent it.

Rein flat out says that a Bastion would tear him apart with its guns during the events of Uprising and in his cinematic Honor and Glory he gets shot by Bastions while protecting his team and shows visible pain.

Yet another argument I never made.

No, you said he's not superior to it because it hurt him, when that would still scale to his durability because all it did was harm him, not kill him outright.

Electrocuted for several seconds by Talon troopers who are by definition nowhere near High 8-C, then shot several times by a person whose guns have been survived by other characters below High 8-C. Was my point.

Electricity ignores durability and Reaper's guns are High 8-C so i dont see what the issue is here.

Electrocuted by them for several seconds, just like you said.

Yeah, electricity, as in th thing that ignores durability. He didnt get shot by their guns.

Your point?

My point is it would be PIS for him to be hurt by it when he can physically lift it off of himself with ease. He was hurt by it BECAUSE he awas already nearly unconcious. If he was hurt by it while at full strength then it would be an issue but given context it makes sense.

Huh. Good on you for pointing out something I actually hadn't noticed. Now you just need to prove that Doomfist physically scales to the damage his gauntlet does, and then you'll have some actual basis for why Winston off-screening him should equate to Winston being High 8-C.

The cinematic shows Winston matching Doom;s gauntlet.

....Actually, no you won't. Because Doomfist's High 8-C calc just got fixed, and the true result is nowhere near that high now.

Hate to break it to you but that result isnt accurate. Cutting the pulverization valut in half would bring it to over 1 ton, not into 9-A.

Probably the only solid argument you've made at all, but, point taken. Shame that breaking a chain isn't a Tier 8 feat, or this might actually matter.

Snarkiness isnt necessary. And implying an 8-C gun cant break a chain.

You don't need to have a Tier 8 gun to shoot through a metal person of that size no matter where you shoot them, so this doesn't matter much anyway.

So you agree that McCree shot through its metal but are still defending your argument that his guns cant shoot through am aluminum sign? How does that make sense?

No, because unfortunately, the screenshots and what I've drawn attention to in them show us otherwise.

No they really havent, he shot him in the chest and killed him. Ergo he shot through metal and killed the Omnic.

Your concept of powerscaling seems to be much different from mine

My concept of powerscaling is the wiki's concept of powerscaling. Widow took a hit from the gauntlet without issue, and characters like Tracer have harmed her.

 

[Cropfist]

• "If youre in a state of near unconsciousness after having been electrocuted for several seconds and then shot in the face multiple times to the point of being near unconscious already then yes"

Electrocuted for several seconds by Talon troopers who are by definition nowhere near High 8-C, then shot several times by a person whose guns have been survived by other characters below High 8-C. Was my point.

• "Funny thing is, he physically lifted it off of himself seconds later when he attacked Reaper in turn, so no, its not like he cannot lift it or move it physically. He was already in a state of being nearly unconscious when he got hit in the head."

Your point? That doesn't change the fact that he was hurt by it when it fell on him. It doesn't matter how much damage you take; if you're High 8-C, something like a space pod falling onto you from a few feet is several orders of magnitude weaker than even the weakest blunt force you can be hurt by. Something that far below you won't knock you out no matter how injured you are.

I can not agree with this. Stats rarely scale up or down to exact levels, it doesn't matter how low the things that injured them are, they were weaked to "whatever level that item was" in the narrative, this is how it's always been on here.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Thank you crop

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

I can not agree with this. Stats rarely scale up or down to exact levels, it doesn't matter how low the things that injured them are, they were weaked to "whatever level that item was" in the narrative, this is how it's always been on here.

It's not though. We've rarely ever been that lax about someone being harmed by an item subject to real-life physics (like a heavy space pod falling a few feet) unless we're dealing with a verse that's thoroughly inconsistent with itself. Which Overwatch definitely is not.

In fact, Winston being harmed by this item after losing his Primal Rage is consistent with the fact that his base form has never shown the type of power or durability that he has when going Primal. It's possible that there are other, better things that his base form can scale to, but considering it's been agreed by several of us that most of the verse is going to become physically 9-B after this revision, this showing wouldn't be that out-of-line with the rest of the cast anyway.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

[a lot]

I'm not seeing anything in this post that isn't rehashing earlier arguments, putting more arguments into my mouth that I never made, throwing out more obtuse statements that gloss over finer details I've pointed out, et cetera. I've already made my case, and until you can come back with something substantial to counter it with, you should honestly just give it a rest.

• "Snarkiness isnt necessary."

Then stop adding your trademark "my guy", "good to know", "funny thing is", "Guess you're just gonna", "Really now", et al to everything you say as if you're talking down to a child, because on a scale of pure tartness, all of that is barely a step below anything I've said to you (if only due to being less blunt), and as I've said already, you shouldn't dish it out if you can't take it.