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Possible Overwatch Downgrade

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Also King i dont appreciate you purposely leaving out that Brigitte regularly fights genji to suit your own argument.
 
Genji was one-shot by Doomfist in his animation.

End.

At the bus stop now, so this'll be my last post for the moment. I'll get to the other things later.
 
Okay, so lets go through this point by point.

Soldier 76:

Not only has 76 tanked this and loved, but he has fought and defeated omnics on the level of Bastion and Orisa during the Omnic Crisis and fought Reaper, who did the same, in h2h combat. Im sure we can also calc the durability of the heavy assault units that Reaper and the rest of Blackwatch canonically fought and killed during their operations as well, a guy that heavy dropping out of the sky would yield some nice numbers. It should be noted that the shotgun that Jack tanked to the back is the same shotgun that Reaper used to defeat Primal Rage Winsto, the same state that defeated Doomfist, who has a direct High 8-C feat. Now as for the grenade feat, here it is for everyone to see it. The extent of the damage he took was some scorching to his jacket and blunt force trauma, not even external injury, due to tanking the explosion at point blank range letting himself be hit by it to protect Alexandria, and he then gets up and walks away with little more than a few grunts of pain. It should be noted that, for people saying that the grenade 'cant be that powerful because no-name thugs had it', not only did these guys have access to other powerful military tech like a minigun, but saying that they cant have High 8-C weapons because theyre no-name thugs is like saying Thermal Detonators from Star Wars cant be High 8-C because no-name Stormtroopers use them.

Winston Argument:

Winston was only briefly knocked out by the space pod falling directly on his head after he was not only electrocuted several times by Talon soldiers, but after being shot multiple times by Reaper's Hellfire Shotguns to the point where he was brought to his knees beforehand. And the argument that Winston cannot withstand this much weight normally is demonstrably false as Winston has swatted cars aside in the past. Case in point, the only reason he was even remotely injured by the space pod is because he was extensively injured beforehand, and even then he was only knocked out for few seconds and he was completely and totally fine afterwards.

McCree:

This one is easy actually, even watching through the video a second time its pretty damn easy to see why the argument that 'his bullets cant penetrate a sign' is pure PIS, seeing as his bullets in the same video Snapped a steel cable, which would have an immensely higher tensile strength than a street sign, oneshot an Omnic, which should be made a material at least as durable as if not more durable than a street sign (sheet aluminum, as all street signs have been made of since the early 1900s). That, on top of the fact that his gun has killed Omnics comparable to Bastio, no, his gun failing to penetrate a street sign is pure PIS. And due to the facts i posted about Winston, you have yet to prove that he would have been killed by the falling train car.

D.va 8-A?

Yes.

Now as for scaling, i agree that it needs work but its far from inaccurate tier-wise.

Bastion:

Bastion scales directly Reinhardt (Overwatch) as Bastion units directly killed crusaders on his level during the Omnic Crisis, forcing them to develop their extremely durable shield technology to beat them. That and he feared for the lives of Mercy, Torbjör, and Tracer the second that a Bastion unit showed up during Uprising, directly stating that its guns could tear them apart with ease.

Reinhardt

Spars with Brigitte on a daily basis and casually mowed through dozens of Bastion units during the Omnic Crisis, and traded blows with an and fight OR15 in the same battle. He should also be at least comparable to if not superior to the likes of Tracer, Mercy, and Torbjorn.

Brigitte:

Regularly fights Reinhardt and Genji

Roadhog

Has fought and killed Omnics comparable to Bastion, and both he and Junkrat acknowledge that he could easily kill Junkrat if he wanted to.

Junkrat

Has fought and killed Omnics on the level of Bastion and is capable of harming people who can harm him in turn (Junkrat being able to tank his own explosions with no issue)

All of them are scaled off of five calcs that scale to people's durability, with everyone being able to damage each other, its really not hard to understand. That and basically everyone scales to each other lore-wise in some way anyways, you could easily remove gameplay entirely and nothing would change.

Doomfist has a High 8-C feat, Zaryahas a High 8-C feat, Hammond has a High 8-C feat, not sure where youre getting the idea that Doomfist is the ONLY high 8-C feat in the verse. If you actually watch the video for his origin he didnt teambust anyone through sheer force, he blindsided genji and caought him off guard and had genji been able to catch his footing he would have been fine (Reflected in the gameplay, where anyone his by his punches will only die if the hit a wall but if they dont then theyre fine) and he beat Tracer not through force at all, he just ripped off her chronal stabilizer and caused her to self bfr back in time.

Neat, how does Doomsift beating OR15s in any way discredit the Gwishin Omnics, whom Doomfist has never fought at any point in time, being superior to Orisa? Plus Doomfist can be oneshot by D.va's self destruct, so your argument falls flat in that regard as well.
 
I'll get to the oversized post in a little while. But first, let me take care of these other bits and pieces.

WeeklyBattles said:
It was confirmed in the first animation of the series that Winston beat him in Primal Rage mode, from the kid who actually watched the fight. Its not dubious in any way shape or form.
Click to expand...
Really now? Because that same video has the other kid pointing out that that's only how it's shown "in the holovids", implying that the real fight wasn't quite the same as the first kid is describing it. And it's not like Doomfist's own animation outright confirms what the first kid says, since we don't see what happens after he and Winston clash.

Of course on top of that, there's also the fact that neither kid was actually present during the real fight, making neither of them a credible source for...well, anything. But anyway...

Even if you ignore all that, there's still the fact that Winston didn't even hold a candle to him until he went Primal Rage. One punch sent him flying and had him unconscious for an entirely unspecified amount of time.

WeeklyBattles said:
No he wasnt.
End.
Click to expand...
Now you've lied to the people.

Doomfist punches Genji
After Doomfist hits him with his gauntlet exactly one time, Genji can't even stand to his feet. That, my friend, is called getting one-shot.
 
Let me do the rest of this in order of relevance. It'll help me keep things as concise as needed.

  • "Doomfist has a High 8-C feat, Zaryahas a High 8-C feat, Hammond has a High 8-C feat, not sure where youre getting the idea that Doomfist is the ONLY high 8-C feat in the verse."
Zarya's feat was in dispute earlier, and by this point everyone seems to have forgotten that this was said:

Zarya's calc is unusable until I see the state of the destroyed door
~ Bambu​
Checked the blog. Saw a link supposedly leading to the scan that actually took me to a list of all the comics. Also saw that nobody in the blog appears to have actually accepted Zarya's High 8-C feat, just the other calcs within that blog. Ant even refers to the other feats that Aiden said were fine, and explicitly not Zarya's feat, which Aiden was still unable to confirm the veracity of by that point.

Meanwhile, Hammond's sole High 8-C feat comes from gameplay which, as I've said, is recurrently contradictory to what's shown in the cinematics and shouldn't be being used for scaling all of the heroes. Show me any instance outside of gameplay where Hammond's mech has hit anyone at hypersonic speeds. I'll wait.

  • "If you actually watch the video for his origin he didnt teambust anyone through sheer force, he blindsided genji and caought him off guard and had genji been able to catch his footing he would have been fine (Reflected in the gameplay, where anyone his by his punches will only die if the hit a wall but if they dont then theyre fine)"
...So what you're saying is that Genji took more damage from hitting the car than he did from Doomfist's punch? That's odd, seeing as that would make him even less durable in that case, and would also mean that Doomfist's gauntlet isn't nearly as strong as what it's being claimed to be.

Alternatively, the whole "he took more damage because he couldn't get his footing"(????) argument could just be wrong, and the bit reflected in gameplay could just be game mechanics.

>D.Va's new calc

...is apparently on a separate wiki from ours, and such hasn't been evaluated or formally accepted by anybody. This certainly explains why the profile doesn't reflect the result of this calc, but it makes me wonder why you're trying to use it right now in spite of that.

  • "Neat, how does Doomsift beating OR15s in any way discredit the Gwishin Omnics, whom Doomfist has never fought at any point in time, being superior to Orisa?"
This wasn't my argument, and you know it.

A direct quote of your original argument summary:

With this in mind it is physically impossible for the explosion to only be 8-C+ when it destroyed things that are canonically vastly stronger than omnics that scale directly to high 8-C feats.
~ You, 2019​
See an issue here? Orisa doesn't directly scale to anything. Orisa is idirectly scaled to Winston, who's effectively High 8-C for beating Doomfist offscreen. And that's where Doomfist ripping apart OR-15s with his bare hands comes in; Orisa doesn't compare to Doomfist in the slightest, and that makes "these things are superior to Orisa" irrelevant to a High 8-C rating.

Also, who the hell is "Doomsift"?

  • "Bastion scales directly Reinhardt (Overwatch) as Bastion units directly killed crusaders on his level during the Omnic Crisis, forcing them to develop their extremely durable shield technology to beat them. That and he feared for the lives of Mercy, Torbjör, and Tracer the second that a Bastion unit showed up during Uprising, directly stating that its guns could tear them apart with ease."
Yet OR-15s are superior to the OR-14 that nearly killed Reinhardt, who as of now "casually" destroys Bastion units. And as mentioned above, Doomfist, the one with potentially legitimate High 8-C feats, rips those OR-15s apart with relative ease. So Bastion doesn't scale either, and even Reinhardt is looking weaker now that one takes a gander at the chain of scaling presented here.

And of course, if a single Bastion unit chumps the likes of Mercy, Torbjorn and Tracer, then that means all three of them are irrelevant as well.

  • "Spars with Brigitte on a daily basis and casually mowed through dozens of Bastion units during the Omnic Crisis, and traded blows with an and fight OR15 in the same battle." (Reinhardt)
  • "Regularly fights Reinhardt and Genji" (Bridgitte)
  • "Has fought and killed Omnics on the level of Bastion and is capable of harming people who can harm him in turn (Junkrat being able to tank his own explosions with no issue)" (Junkrat)
  • Has fought and killed Omnics comparable to Bastion, and both he and Junkrat acknowledge that he could easily kill Junkrat if he wanted to. (Roadhog)
All rendered moot now that we've established how far below High 8-C the OR-15s are. And now that we've clarified that Doomfist did, in fact, put Genji out of commission with a single attack.

  • "The extent of the damage he took was some scorching to his jacket and blunt force trauma, not even external injury, due to tanking the explosion at point blank range letting himself be hit by it to protect Alexandria, and he then gets up and walks away with little more than a few grunts of pain."
The whole "with little more than a few grunts of pain" bit is an odd way of saying "with a stagger backwards, several groans every time he tries to move for a while, and a hand on his midsection as if his ribs are broken". And the "external injury" argument means little; if something leaves you groaning in pain to the point that you sound like you're going to spit out a string of swears at any moment, you're not superior to it. The most you can say about him being able to pick up his gun and walk off afterwards is that he has remarkable pain tolerance.

  • "It should be noted that the shotgun that Jack tanked to the back is the same shotgun that Reaper used to defeat Primal Rage Winston"
That actually just leads me to this next bit:

  • "Winston was only briefly knocked out by the space pod falling directly on his head after he was not only electrocuted several times by Talon soldiers, but after being shot multiple times by Reaper's Hellfire Shotguns to the point where he was brought to his knees beforehand. And the argument that Winston cannot withstand this much weight normally is demonstrably false as Winston has swatted cars aside in the past. Case in point, the only reason he was even remotely injured by the space pod is because he was extensively injured beforehand, and even then he was only knocked out for few seconds and he was completely and totally fine afterwards."
If you're High 8-C, a space pod falling on you from a few feet isn't going to knock you out. That's the logical equivalent of a normal human getting beaten severely and then being knocked out by having a pebble dropped on them.

Also, speaking of High 8-C, if his non-Primal Rage form was harmed by Talon soldiers, that already puts said form far below the likes of Doomfist. Adding to that, Reaper shooting him and incapping him briefly is no proof that the latter is High 8-C, since again, the defeat of Doomfist happened offscreen and we don't know the details of what went down after Winston went Primal during their fight. If anything it's yet another anti-feat for Winston, since other characters that have now been established to be far inferior to Doomfist can withstand those shotguns, and your whole bit about how Winston was already weakened from being electrocuted by Talon soldiers and still survived being shot by them only serves as further evidence that those shotguns aren't necessarily High 8-C either.

  • "And the argument that Winston cannot withstand this much weight normally is demonstrably false as Winston has swatted cars aside in the past."
Knocking something aside =/= lifting it, shouldering it, or surviving having the full weight of it fall on you. I knocked over my television once when I was a kid, but I guarantee you I'd look a lot like Winston did if that same TV had fallen on me at the time. Same principle applies here.

  • "his bullets in the same video Snapped a steel cable, which would have an immensely higher tensile strength than a street sign" (McCree)
You've activated my trap card!

McCree shot 1
McCree shot 2
The devil's in the details, my friend. That wasn't one cable; it was two cables with a small chain holding them together. In other words, there was a weak point and McCree's exceptional aiming skills allowed him to shoot clean through it.

  • "oneshot an Omnic, which should be made a material at least as durable as if not more durable than a street sign"
You'll want to zoom in on these, since I've circled something very important in each.

McCree shot 3
McCree shot 4
McCree shot 5
Notice where the sniper scope is in relation to where McCree's bullet hits. Our friend just pulled a Roland Deschain and shot through the scope, hitting the poor Omnic in its glassy robotic equivalent of its eye. This is further reflected by the animation afterwards; the rifle flips backwards as its holder falls, which shows that it was the recipient of an impact as well.

Damn, I love animation...

  • "That, on top of the fact that his gun has killed Omnics comparable to Bastion"
Seeing three "BLAM"s in that scan you shared, none of which are directly shown to be a killshot. It's also entirely feasible that, if he did kill this thing, he pulled a similar maneuver to what he did in the video and aimed for weak points rather than a well-protected area. Because going by the evidence, his aim is that good when he's putting concentration into it.

So, in summary, there's still no evidence of High 8-C for several of these characters mentioned, and some of them may actually be even weaker in comparison to others than the profiles would have you believe. Many details have either been overlooked, explained in obtuse fashion or otherwise misconstrued as a means of obscuring the fact that all of this wanton scaling has no leg to stand on, and much of what's presented also relies on mixing cinematic/lore feats with gameplay in order for it to have any sort of grounding. Many of the feats shown above are also far more consistent with something to the effect of 9-B or, if I'm being very generous, 9-A.

Which makes plenty of sense, since Doomfist's quantifiably High 8-C feats have all been performed with his trademark gauntlet. Which wouldn't scale to his durability at all, since even a child was able to operate the gauntlet without hurting himself in the process.

"But Widowmaker took a hit from the gauntlet--"

And has since failed to replicate anything on that level. Not when the verse's scaling is treated reasonably.

Your move.
 
MrKingOfNegativity said:
snip
Click to expand...
Yes. holovids are overwatchs equivalent of video recordings, he watched a recording of the fight and saw winston beat doomfist in primal rage mode, consistent with doomfist's trailer and the description of the fight we get in the lore.

I did not lie and am immensely insulted that you imply that i did. The clip you showrd is not genji getting oneshot by doomfists punch. As i explained in my rebuttal, doomfists punch is two parts, one half punch and one half colission. Genji was fine as he was trying to catch his footing, only sustaining damage after being rammed into the car. this is 100% conistent with how doomfists punches work in-game, where the opponent takes double damage and will be oneshot if they are punched into a solid object, but will survive if they are not.
 
I will respond to the rest when I get home but I would greatly appreciate it if you kept insults and personal attacks out of your argument, they don't help anyone and only serve to make you look bad.
 
Even then, still rendered moot by the fact that all of Doomfist's High 8-C evidence comes from him using the gauntlet, which doesn't scale to his physicals without it, thanks to even a child being able to wield it without hurting himself. By that point, all Winston would have had to do is hurt Doomfist physically, since Doomfist is physically nowhere near as strong as his gauntlet.

He bounced off the ground several times before hitting that car, so this argument falls a bit flat regardless. But the other problem is using "he bounced, rolled, slid and then hit a car" as a justification for using an obvious game mechanic for scaling, especially when there's no other evidence to support Genji being able to just tank hits from Doomfist.

By the way, "Now you've lied to the people" is a clear joke in-context, not a personal attack. And no insults have been made either.
 
And yet Widowmaker, who is physically on par with tracer, who is physically on par with genji, was able to survive the punch with little injury.

How about this, while I'm busy at work, you and whoever you need to get to make calcs if necessary calc the OR15 and Heavy Assault Talon Units durability for falling from the sky. Sound good?

I did not take it as a joke and you should know me well enough to know that I wouldn't take someone saying that to me as as joke
 
Weekly, can you please first explain how using gameplay to scale works here when pvp contradicts story stuff? You said it's uaage was fjne but didn't elaborate. Can do this later if you want but it's gotta get done at some point
 
  • "And yet Widowmaker, who is physically on par with tracer, who is physically on par with genji, was able to survive the punch with little injury."
And has since failed to replicate anything on that level. Not when the verse's scaling is treated reasonably.
~ Me, 2019​
  • "How about this, while I'm busy at work, you and whoever you need to get to make calcs if necessary calc the OR15 and Heavy Assault Talon Units durability for falling from the sky. Sound good?"
Not really, since you know I don't (and can't) do calcs. I'm just here to elaborate on why the current scaling is extremely faulty, which is what I've done this whole time. Although even then, I highly doubt that's going to break into High 8-C.

  • "I did not take it as a joke and you should know me well enough to know that I wouldn't take someone saying that to me as as joke"
I've talked to you personally all of...what, three times? The only other times I speak to you are in threads, and you seem to get mad at everything I say in those. And frankly, considering how openly sarcastic you get when someone disagrees with you, I'd assume you could recognize and handle some of that same sarcasm when it's tossed your way.

I'm not looking to get into a fistfight over this last point, so I recommend we agree to disagree on it and move on.
 
How about this, while I'm busy at work, you and whoever you need to get to make calcs if necessary calc the OR15 and Heavy Assault Talon Units durability for falling from the sky. Sound good?
 
Just gonna warn you that unless they're significantly heavier than they seem there's almost no way it's tier 8. Only tier 8 falling calcs i know of are space marines and Titanfall titans. With both of those:

  • Fall was from a very far distance, both from space
  • Both are very heavy. Space marine us >1000kg and Titan used was 43 tons
Even master chief's fall from space was calced at something like 9-A, and he isn't exactly light himself.
 
@King Honestly I feel it would be better to keep this as serious as possible, without much snarky or teasing remarks.

I definitely don't think you are malicious or anything but I have been getting a gut feeling that the discussion could devolve from jokes to actual conflict given enough time, although I wasn't sure how to put this into words well
 
I always have that feeling when I'm debating an intense subject with people. Years of experience have taught me that it comes with the territory.

But, if it's necessary, I can ease back on some of my usual...mannerisms that come with how I debate people. Even if this is just how I talk. To everyone.
 
@Wok both OR15 and Heavy Assault units weigh several metric tons, the OR15 even parted clouds as it fell
 
Got videos of this to work off of

Mind you the space marines and titans fell from space, with the latter even having initial velocity so I still can't guarantee anything
 
I think I remember robots falling from the sky getting something like 9-A+

I'd have to get a picture of the things and speed to look over things myself but it's still an option
 
Well, get a size and I could probably handle that
 
hmm

I don't remember the way to get a volume based off how big a person is, but on principal, people have one liter of volume for every kilo they're packing

He's a fairly large dude, so let's assume he's the normal person equivalent of 100 kilograms, making his volume 100 liters, which converts to 0.1 cubic meters

These guys are probably mostly comprised of steel, so .1 times 8050 is 805 Kilograms

Speed of catching on fire is 1715 meters per second, so .5 times 805 times 1715^2 is....

1183843062.5 Joules, 0.28294528262 Tons, near baseline Building level

There's probably an immensely more refined way to do it, but it adds consistency to more standard overwatch dudes being in the 8-C range like I've kinda seen eluded to what with Diva's self destruct being 1.8 Tons and Hammond double boosting being in the same sort of field (Then again hammond's feat's kinda been ragged upon so I'll ignore that for simplicity's sake)
 
Well, those are hollowed out cylinders made to like, actually shoot something, so it wouldn't have 100% density

It would make some change but it's too much work for too little investment on my part, if you have an idea, jump on it
 
>checks the video

More gameplay stuff that doesn't appear to be supported by lore.

The OR-14 in Reinhardt's video didn't catch on fire when falling, so that's not much support for anything either. And the second feat is an in-game cutscene that doesn't even interrupt the game's other animations. (You'll notice that there are all off the other in-game characters models going through idle animation when the Heavy Assault guy shows up)

And even if we do take the Heavy Assault landing animation as a legitimate feat, those are far and away the strongest units in Talon's ranks, and even in-game they function as bosses that can chew through your heroes with laughable ease if you aren't careful. (Not that I'm advocating we use gameplay to scale or anything, because as I've outlined extensively throughout this thread, that doesn't actually work when it comes to this title)

Calc the OR-14 falling. Then we might have something reliable to work with.
 
I'll be heading to work again in twenty minutes or so, just FYI. I can be back some hours later to discuss further.
 
>More gameplay stuff that doesn't appear to be supported by lore.

I highly, HIGHLY recommend you actually bother to look a tthe lore before making a claim like this because its 100% supported by the lore
 
And yet you keep providing instances of "things landing/moving at hypersonic speeds" taken from the game's engine instead of bringing something from the comics, cinematics or even the extra Dossier stuff on Talon that's been released to the public. I would think that if there were a feat of someone doing this in cinematics or lore, you or someone else who follows the game would have shared it by now to support your case.

Although I'd still say you're more than free to do so now, if you can.
 
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