Possible Overwatch Downgrade

[Wokistan]

So we were looking at a titanfall calc and someone pointed out that Overwatch had a similar one. This is that calc. Now, upon looking at this calc, Bambu found that it had a fatal error that would preclude it's usage: While it claims to use 80% hollowness, it actually uses 80% mass. This drastically impacts the results, and was even pointed out at the time by Anton but it got used anyways. Now, why is this an issue? Surely other things support High 8-C, right? Well...

According to people who know more about overwatch, one core tennet to support High 8-C is how Doomfist was said to have leveled a skyscraper. The issue? This can be done with 9-B. Knocking out the supports at the bottom of a skyscraper will cause it to pretty much collapse in on itself. Hell, doesn't even have to be the bottom. It's an unfortunate example but being an American the most prevalent one, the September 11th terrorist attacks on the WTC collapsed the Twin Towers by crashing planes into them. Those plane crashes weren't tier 8 or whatever, but what they did do was compromise the structural integrity of the buildings enough for them to collapse. (No conspiracy theories here, please.) The point is, such a statement on its own can only support ratings, not substitute as proof.

Another support is Bastion mowing down a chunk of the forest, shown here. However, this can also be 9-B. Meet the M61 Vulca. This type of machine gun shoots 9-B bullets (which can already penetrate 9-A things) at a rate of thousands of rounds per minute, and is similar to the weapon Bastion has. It can cut trees, tanks, buildings, cars, you get the idea. Shooting thousands of objects with such a small surface area can sure tear through things, but it isn't exactly a High 8-C feat.

Finally, that brings us to the other calc, which is Mei's ice. However, this also has some problems, being

• She can't exactly use the ice wall offensively
• Ice itself isn't that durable, according to Bambu frag is like 1 j/cc. Just takes a lot of energy to make ice out of air, not nearly as much to break it
• It's kinda outlierish considering the other support is really problematic

So yeah. There's probably something above 62-200kj that you'd get from that sort of machine gun but High 8-C ain't it chief

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Hi

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Doomfist has a Hiigh 8-C crater feat from his animation trailer and Hammond has a High 8-C durability feat from his pod crashing to earth from outer space

 

[Wokistan]

Should prob calc those so the files get better justifications then

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Zarya also has a High 8-C feat

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'd love to see these feats. The calcs and such.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Zarya feat

Doomfist Crater and Hammond Reentry

Also updated Hammond's calc and got 8-C+

 

[Overlord775]

@Wokistan

The Doomfirst is ment to be a superweapon iirc, so for levelling a skyscraper they likely mean in more the "completly destroy" way

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Overlord Doomfist has a High 8-C calc anyways so...

 

[Elizhaa]

If there are other supporting calculation for the current tiering, I think they should be used to better the justifications like Wokistan said.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Ive already given them

 

[Elizhaa]

Ive already given them

Oh. I guess this thread is done then; if it is then, you are welcome to close the thread, WeeklyBattles

 

[Wokistan]

No he isn't, bambu wanted to eval them still

If they're fine the tier should be okay thouj

 

[WeeklyBattles]

^

 

[Elizhaa]

Oh, I guess we wait for the calculation evaluation, then.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

So...?

 

[Wokistan]

Go pester bambu until he relents i guess

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

I was going to bring this up a while back before I got distracted.

In fact, I remember coming across and pointing out many of these same problems and then some after the Black Widow VS Widowmaker Death Battle.

I'll reply to this again after I'm done at work.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@King Dont bother, its already been agreed that the stuff in the op is correct, the new feats i posted are still high 8-C and bambu accepted them

 

[Wokistan]

Bambu doesn't seem to be aware that he accepted them...

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Look at the comments lol

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I wouldn't mind King's opinion if it comes down to it. Zarya's calc is unusable until I see the state of the destroyed door, I was very iffy on Doomfist's crater (low quality image means it's hard to tell if it was Pulv or not, and it didn't look like pulv). Hammond's calc is under question because you got different masses for each one, somehow?

 

[Wokistan]

They uh, don't look that accepted besides him giving a rather apathetic yes to doomfist. (I can't check that this math is right myself, so I'll defer to him)

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Bambu look at the comments again i cleared it up

 

[Mr. Bambu]

You replied to the Hammond one, which I still have a question for, and none of the others.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Responded to your qustion

Doomfist's feat has a video so youre free to look to check it

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Right, and, see, that's my issue. In the video you see chunks of rock flying up. So I was wondering if you could clear up why that's Pulv.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Because both in-game and in the video itself you see that its pulv, his punches in-game leave clear craters, not frag

 

[Mr. Bambu]

craters don't have to be pulv though

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Also dunno if you saw or not but i updated Hammon'd other calc and got 8-C+

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I did see it, that calc is fine now that it uses proper mass.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

@King Dont bother--

Oh, but I think I will...

For starters, I already mentioned some problems I ended up having with a few of the Overwatch 8-C/High 8-C calcs here, so I'll just leave that there as the first half of my issue, since most of what I said in that doesn't seem to have been addressed here or elsewhere.

My second problem is that, even if every High 8-C calc were legitimate and could be applied to AP/durability, why in the hell are we scaling every single Overwatch hero to these feats when several of them have shown upper limits nowhere near this high?

Let me run through the checklist real fast:

• McCree: Had to dodge a falling train car in order to avoid being hurt and/or killed by it. His bullets were also deflected by another character, and said character did so using an ordinary street sign.
• D.Va: Her mech didn't survive its own self-destruction. (duh) D.Va herself was nearly killed by the blast despite being quite far away from the center of it, and the robot which was completely destroyed by this blast was easily ripping pieces off the mech beforehand.
• Reaper: Was seriously wounded by a mech that has no feats of its own and is nowhere near large enough to be High 8-C via size. Later kills it, but we're never shown the method he uses, or how long it took for him to do so.
• Winsto: Got hurt and incapacitated by having a heavy piece of equipment fall on him.
• Soldier: 76: Tanks a hand grenade thrown by a gang member, but is clearly and visibly injured by it.

All of these people are rated as High 8-C for (if I'm not mistaken) being able to hurt other characters with 8-C/High 8-C feats in-game, which is the equivalent of scaling every single Street Fighter character to Ryu because the player can use them to beat him up. And it's especially egregious here, given how the above instances in the cinematics contradict them being this powerful.

And that's also not even going into the fact that most of these characters are portrayed as being on different levels from each other. Characters like Tracer, McCree and 76 are recurrently not treated as being within the same realm of power as guys like Reinhardt, Doomfist and Bastion, and it makes very little sense to rate them at Large Building level in spite of that.

So you have several very questionable calcs with certain important bits of context left out (with two of them being in-game feats, and one of those in-game feats not even being scaleable to AP), and on top of that, several of the characters scaled to these feats have shown much lower limits in the cinematics and are not portrayed as being on-par with the stronger beings who actually perform these feats. No matter which way you look at things, there's a problem here, and it needs to be cleaned up.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'm not one to enjoy anti-feats in such a way. This is like the classic joke of super high-tier game characters dying by falling some twenty feet.

McCree can just be PIS or the game developers not considering the extent of the other feats.

D.Va... not even sure what the problem here is. It self-destructed and dealt enough damage to nearly kill a High 8-C, what's the issue?

Reaper's mech may just have been High 8-C scaling to him. It doesn't need feats outside of that.

Winston, again, may well just be PIS.

High 8-C Grenade. Done.

The calcs themselves are all to varying degrees viable. Doomfist's calc should probably be V. Frag, but after that, you'd have two 8-C calcs supporting a High 8-C one. I don't see a reason to downgrade now that Hammond's calc has been cleared up. Even with characters not being in the same realm of power (which I do agree with for the record) they can still harm each other, no?

Suffice to say that as it stands I'm fine with the High 8-C values for Overwatch now that I have been satisfied by the calculations providing a reasonable enough basis for Tier 8 potency. I'll let you and Weekly duke it out if you must, but imo this is fine.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Lol bambu you said everything I was gonna say but better

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

@Bambu:

McCree doesn't have any scaling to the main High 8-C crew outside of gameplay, so details like this matter.

The blast caused by the self-destruction is what was calc'd. The robot it destroyed doesn't have any feats outside of ripping pieces off D.Va's mech.

This one's reasoning is completely circular.

Winston has almost no feats of his own besides "fighting other guys", and only one of those other characters has their own Tier 8 feat to speak of. So again, details like this matter.

The grenade came from a street thug, from a gang that operates in an Overwatch equivalent of a bad neighborhood in El Paso. You're saying someone like that just has access to High 8-C hand grenades for no stated reason?

And again, you're looking at a situation of "can harm each other" largely coming from in-game interactions, with only a sparse handful actually happening in the cinematics.

 

[Antoniofer]

I simply would suggest to not scale due game mechanics. Everyone there can receive a considerable amount of damage from each other, but in canon they wouldn't survive much: Widowmaker would one shot everyone with her weapon, Doomfirst is clearly way stronger than character such Tracer as he one shot, Reaper critically wounded 76 with one hit of his shotguns.

Not quite questioning the 8-C and High 8-C ratings, but not everyone scales.

 

[Overlord775]

@King

I would like to remind you one thing

That granade created a building-size explosio

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

@Overlord:

Those are civilian houses.

A High 8-C explosion would be skyscraper-sized, or at least comparable in size to a skyscraper. Which there are none of in that scene.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Bambu:

McCree doesn't have any scaling to the main High 8-C crew outside of gameplay, so details like this matter.

The blast caused by the self-destruction is what was calc'd. The robot it destroyed doesn't have any feats outside of ripping pieces off D.Va's mech.

Winston has almost no feats of his own besides "fighting other guys", and only one of those other characters has their own Tier 8 feat to speak of. So again, details like this matter.

The grenade came from a street thug, from a gang that operates in an Overwatch equivalent of a bad neighborhood in El Paso. You're saying someone like that just has access to High 8-C hand grenades for no stated reason?

And again, you're looking at a situation of "can harm each other" largely coming from in-game interactions, with only a sparse handful actually happening in the cinematics.

He scales to the members of blackwatch as well as ashe, so yeah, he does

That makes the robot scale to dvas mech, so high 8-C on top of the fact that its canonically a much stronger Omnic than bastion

Scaling, simple

The grenade created a building sized explosion, who threw it means nothing

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

This is also completely circular. If one of them being High 8-C is questionable (it is), then scaling him to people who scale back to him isn't going to magically fix that.

D.Va's mech was completely obliterated by the explosion, which was calc'd to be Building level+. So even if the robot scales to D.Va's mech, that doesn't change the fact that D.Va's mech blatantly isn't capable of surviving High 8-C damage.

Scaling that's contradicted by what he's shown to be hurt by.

It created a house-sized explosion, which is nowhere near big enough to be High 8-C on its lonesome. (I've pointed that out already)