Possible Jubileus's upgrade?

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

So he's suddenly the type to fake grunts?
So her having no injuries in which based on YOUR logic means she should be perfectly fine leaves only that conclusion.

I never said he did not overpower her. I said based on what you've stated previously about Aesir not taking any "superficial" damage. The only reason she got overpowered was because he used his power.

Literally never said he fakes grunts. Ever. Grunting does not mean you are in serious pain, and is not the same as violently screaming. It should not be treated as such.

>no injuries

She was literally in the process of being strangled. He was strangling her. She was choking and struggling. This is becoming ******* absurd.

I said Aesir's damage is superficial, not that he didn't take superficial damage. Superficial implies the damage was not life-threatening to him.

What is this "she was only overpowered because he used Loki's power" even based on? Surely not the actual scene, which just shows him rushing her and then strangling her. We cannot say "maybe she would have won if this" if nothing points to it. The scene just implies Loptr was able to choke her and then steal the Eye. That's it.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Pained grunts means the opponent is taking damage. Azzy no disrespect and I truly mean that since you are one of my favorite admins so please don't take this personally; but tell me since when has pained grunts from an attack meant nothing in terms of scaling? Since when has Aesir become someone who fakes pained grunts? It isn't his character. Those pained grunts mean Bayo was actively damaging him. His appearance right before getting his eyes removed shows he was hurt.

If you kick someone in the shin, they may grunt. This does not mean you have just inflicted massive damage on them. It means they felt it. Lord English clearly screams in rage or surprise when Davepetasprite tackles him, but this does not mean Davepeta scales to his full power.

My point is that we should not treat someone grunting the same as someone howling is absolute agony, as they do not represent even close to the same level of pain.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

He can control the power of the eyes with Loki's power. He stats this before he "fights" Balder.

 

[Melted_Love]

"You imply he was legitimately getting hurt while nothing points to this."

Except for the screaming, the grunts, and him taking some time to recover from the Shirogane Comet's crash.

"You imply he used Loki's power to stop Bayo while nothing points to this."

The Sovereign Power he took from Loki was necessary to steal the Eyes from Balder and Bayo. That's the only reason he wanted to capture Loki. He even took Balder's eye without fighting him. Watch the cutscenes, he weakens both Bayo and Balder with the Sovereign Power to steal their Eyes. Hell, he didn't even need to touch Balder to weaken him... when he had the Eye. After that, Balder is free to fight him because Loptr cannot rely anymore on the Sovereign Power.

"Again, I've already said why Aesir had no need to consider it a serious battle."

He was fighting seriously, he doesn't sound or look amused through the fight. He wasn't toying with them. He was putting effort. He even used a giant anti matter particle cannon. The fight had a greta toll on him.

It doesn't sound that he was getting hurt. It sounds, looks, and was getting hurt. He even get paralyzed by some attacks and is evident that he showed effort to recover form the Shirogane Comet's crash.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

He can control the power of the eyes with Loki's power. He stats this before he "fights" Balder.

Controlling the power of the Eyes means he could take them for himself. Which he does, after grabbing and choking Bayonetta on his own.

Plus, if people truly believe Eyeless Bayo and Balder could legitimately pose a threat to Aesir, controlling the power of the Eyes would mean literally nothing, since even without that power, Bayo would be massively stronger than him.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Back to the Homestruck example. Again and I will continue to repeat myself Aesir had notable battle damage while Lord English did not. A Large Palnet Level character does not simply hurt a Universal Being. They need to be close to his level to do so. He can easily be a stronger 3-A being than them case and point Hit to Champa or Beerus to Whis or actually Goku to Beerus. Goku can hurt Beerus, in which puts him at Multi-Galaxy Level so why can't the same happen to Bayonetta. Tifa is 4-B for fighting LoZ in which is a situation similar to this yet Bayonetta suddenly can't be scaled? Dante gets upgraded via a single tweet yet Bayonetta has all this to support her and constant implications yet She can't even get a simple Tier 3-B rating?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Except for the screaming, the grunts, and him taking some time to recover from the Shirogane Comet's crash.

The Sovereign Power he took from Loki was necessary to steal the Eyes from Balder and Bayo. That's the only reason he wanted to capture Loki. He even took Balder's eye without fighting him. Watch the cutscenes, he weakens both Bayo and Balder with the Sovereign Power to steal their Eyes. Hell, he didn't even need to touch Balder to weaken him... when he had the Eye. After that, Balder is free to fight him because Loptr cannot rely anymore on the Sovereign Power.

He was fighting seriously, he doesn't sound or look amused through the fight. He wasn't toying with them. He was putting effort. He even used a giant anti matter particle cannon. The fight had a greta toll on him.

It doesn't sound that he was getting hurt. It sounds, looks, and was getting hurt. He even get paralyzed by some attacks and is evident that he showed effort to recover form the Shirogane Comet's crash.

"Screaming". Yeah, no. Please stop acting like Aesir was howling in pain, when he was more often than not grunting while being struck.

"Necessary to steal the Eyes". Yes, it was. You know what it wasn't necessary to do? Literally ******* choke and overpower Bayonetta, who by your own logic, should have shitkicked him if she was that much more powerful without the Eye.

He sounds pretty damn calm every single time he speaks, in battle. He loses his cool when the Eyes go away, as I've already pointed out multiple times.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Back to the Homestruck example. Again and I will continue to repeat myself Aesir had notable battle damage while Lord English did not. A Large Palnet Level character does not simply hurt a Universal Being. They need to be close to his level to do so. He can easily be a stronger 3-A being than them case and point Hit to Champa or Beerus to Whis or actually Goku to Beerus. Goku can hurt Beerus, in which puts him at Multi-Galaxy Level so why can't the same happen to Bayonetta. Tifa is 4-B for fighting LoZ in which is a situation similar to this yet Bayonetta suddenly can't be scaled? Dante gets upgraded via a single tweet yet Bayonetta has all this to support her and constant implications yet She can't even get a simple Tier 3-B rating?

...No. No he doesn't. I've already disproved Aesir's armor being comparable in durability to his own, which is the reason for saying "he clearly took battle damage".

Then the examples of "Aesir being hurt" are him grunting or yelling, which LE does several times during the fight.

Again, I did not decide on Tifa's rating. I did not upgrade Dante. These are not things you should be asking me.

What I am doing is arguing about a series I am familiar with, and against scaling I know to be very, very incorrect based on even the context of the fight itself.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Bayonetta sound calm everytime she speaks even in battle unless she's angry. So what now are we going to chalk this all up to being outliers? Then we'll have to do so for series such as DMC and Final Fantasy since character are scaled from occurences like this...

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Bayonetta sound calm everytime she speaks even in battle unless she's angry. So what now are we going to chalk this all up to being outliers? Then we'll have to do so for series such as DMC and Final Fantasy since character are scaled from occurences like this...

This would be a valid point if I ever used Aesir damaging Bayo during the fight as an example, which I didn't.

Instead, I pointed out her very clearly not being calm and struggling when Loptr choked her, which is very much still legit.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

You have not proven anything about Aesir's armament being weaker than his durabiltiy. All you have said was Balder managed to break it and Aesir mocked him. So you assume Balder was drastically weaker than Loptr at that point.

 

[Melted_Love]

Let's be honest, Azathoth is biased, he didn't even consider the difference between a failed pocket dimension and an authentic universe. Gilgamesh could beat Mundus, as Ea can destroy any pocket dimension no matter the size. He has the power and authority to do that. He can return anything ot its original state, the Truth.

"Controlling the power of the Eyes means he could take them for himself. Which he does, after grabbing and choking Bayonetta on his own."

After taking the Sovereign Power from Loki. Hell, he didn't need to touch her to take the Eye from her, thanks to the power Loki held.

"Plus, if people truly believe Eyeless Bayo and Balder could legitimately pose a threat to Aesir, controlling the power of the Eyes would mean literally nothing, since even without that power, Bayo would be massively stronger than him."

Well, she did own him by herself in the end, she won the upperhand, and I have already proved that she becomes stronger and fights more appropiately as the game progresses.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

You have not proven anything about Aesir's armament being weaker than his durabiltiy. All you have said was Balder managed to break it and Aesir mocked him. So you assume Balder was drastically weaker than Loptr at that point.

Yes, I have. The same hit from Balder that shattered Loptr's armor only made Loptr laugh. There are no assumptions involved in that.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Let's be honest, Azathoth is biased, he didn't even consider the difference between a failed pocket dimension and an authentic universe. Gilgamesh could beat Mundus, as Ea can destroy any pocket dimension no matter the size. He has the power and authority to do that. He can return anything ot its original state, the Truth.
After taking the Sovereign Power from Loki. Hell, he didn't need to touch her to take the Eye from her, thanks to the power Loki held.

Well, she did own him by herself in the end, she won the upperhand, and I have already proved that she becomes stronger and fights more appropiately as the game progresses.

No, you are very much the biased one, here. You refuse to listen to reason and instead only focus on what could be and things with little to no evidence backing them up in order to upgrade a character you prefer. Your arguments are starting to fall back on "you're biased", which is a very weak platform to fall back on.

Except he did touch Bayonetta. He fought her and then overpowered her, choking her before taking the Eye. You have no refuted this, or done anything to prove I am biased against Bayonetta. You have just danced around it or acted like it didn't happen.

"own him by herself in the end". What? She by no means "owned" him. She fought with him on her own until Loki erased both Eyes, at which point she and Balder summoned Omne to destroy Aesir's body. This is also not a "stronger as the game progresses" thing. This is being magnitudes stronger than you were a literal minute prior for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I'm done for tonight. If I continue I'll say something that will likely get me banned as I am tired. Azzy's gonna hold firm his ideals on the situation while I do the same. I really struggle with the fairness of this site sometimes. We've argued this stuff over and over yet we cannot even get an "At least 3-B" Bayonetta. Heck I could careless about Jubileus, Shiva or Jeanne. For me only Bayo, Balder and Omne scale. I'm done. I can't continue. I don't want to burn my bridges with the admins here. I just ask you guys to at least consider "At Least 3-B" Bayonetta. You guys can debate all you want all night. But I also request that this thread stay open until tomorrow. That's my last request.

 

[Melted_Love]

Reminder that Loptr didn't fought Balder fair and square when he possesed the Right Eye, he just relied on Loki's Sovereign Power to beat him without effort. Before that Loptr managed to fend off Bayo and Balder, by using Loki as hostage. Bayo and Balder gave priority to save Loki. Not that it matters since both Eye-less owned Aesir in the end.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Reminder that Loptr didn't fought Balder fair and square when he possesed the Right Eye, he just relied on Loki's Sovereign Power to beat him without effort. Before that Loptr managed to fend off Bayo and Balder, by using Loki as hostage. Bayo and Balder gave priority to save Loki. Not that it matters since both Eye-less owned Aesir in the end.

Balder tried to stab Loptr, and just busted some of his armor and staggered him. He then nearly knocked out Balder when he tried to protect Bayo and overpowered Bayonetta in a 1-on-1 fight. Loki was already saved when Bayo and Loptr fought, so she clearly wasn't holding back. You have still not properly addressed this, and you still assume Bayo and Balder "won" against Aesir, despite Aesir taking Balder out of the fight and Bayo's portion never concluding before Aesir was depowered.

 

[Melted_Love]

I'm done for tonight. If I continue I'll say something that will likely get me banned as I am tired. Azzy's gonna hold firm his ideals on the situation while I do the same. I really struggle with the fairness of this site sometimes. We've argued this stuff over and over yet we cannot even get an "At least 3-B" Bayonetta. Heck I could careless about Jubileus, Shiva or Jeanne. For me only Bayo, Balder and Omne scale. I'm done. I can't continue. I don't want to burn my bridges with the admins here. I just ask you guys to at least consider "At Least 3-B" Bayonetta. You guys can debate all you want all night. But I also request that this thread stay open until tomorrow. That's my last request.

Admins? it's just one guy. But thank you very much for sticking to this and reading my posts. Good night. Actually, the same goes for everyone else debating against the Abyssal Idiot, thanks for putting attention to my evidence and using critical thinking to don't let yourselves be fooled. It's a shame that even on Vs battles there are people with authority and power that are biased against Bayonetta. Corruptions exists on many levels. Seems that only real Platinum Game fans and Kamiya care for her at this point. But justice and truth always prevail in the end...ok, that was corny, but you get the point.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Be careful. I don't want you to get banned. So try not to insult the admins here. Just a warning.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Admins? it's just one guy. But thank you very much for sticking to this and reading my posts. Good night. Actually, the same goes for everyone else debating against the Abyssal Idiot, thanks for putting attention to my evidence and using critical thinking to don't let yourselves be fooled. It's a shame that even on Vs battles there are people with authority and power that are biased against Bayonetta. Corruptions exists on many levels. Seems that only real Platinum Game fans and Kamiya care for her at this point. But justice and truth always prevail in the end...ok, that was corny, but you get the point.

You know, I've been very, very nice to you.

I've legitimately argued against you, and unlike you, have not fallen back on "lol ur biased" when I don't feel like arguing. However, you have done little to refute points I've brought up, and instead have chosen to attack my character while I choose to make legitimate arguments.

That is childish, and it is not behavior welcome on this wiki.

You are being warned to stop.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Hey Aza can we just take a break until tomorrow and not close the thread. We are all tired so I thinks it's best for us to regain our energy and composure.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Hey Aza can we just take a break until tomorrow and not close the thread. We are all tired so I thinks it's best for us to regain our energy and composure.

I'm not going to close it. I would like input from Ant and other higher ups whom I trust with matters such as these.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

^Agreed.

 

[Melted_Love]

Let's be honest, Azathoth is biased, he didn't even consider the difference between a failed pocket dimension and an authentic universe. Gilgamesh could beat Mundus, as Ea can destroy any pocket dimension no matter the size. He has the power and authority to do that. He can return anything ot its original state, the Truth.
After taking the Sovereign Power from Loki. Hell, he didn't need to touch her to take the Eye from her, thanks to the power Loki held.

Well, she did own him by herself in the end, she won the upperhand, and I have already proved that she becomes stronger and fights more appropiately as the game progresses.

No, you are very much the biased one, here. You refuse to listen to reason and instead only focus on what could be and things with little to no evidence backing them up in order to upgrade a character you prefer. Your arguments are starting to fall back on "you're biased", which is a very weak platform to fall back on.
Except he did touch Bayonetta. He fought her and then overpowered her, choking her before taking the Eye. You have no refuted this, or done anything to prove I am biased against Bayonetta. You have just danced around it or acted like it didn't happen.

"own him by herself in the end". What? She by no means "owned" him. She fought with him on her own until Loki erased both Eyes, at which point she and Balder summoned Omne to destroy Aesir's body. This is also not a "stronger as the game progresses" thing. This is being magnitudes stronger than you were a literal minute prior for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

There is no little evidence, as long as it is evidence it has value. You still don't reject any of the points of my original post with a valid argument. You just said that it's "aesthetics", and assume that he wasn't taking the fight seriously. You don't show evidence for your claims, but rather opinions, not facts.

Also, the chocking was before he turned into Aesir, reminder that I'm judging just the Aesir fight, since that was the moment when Bayo and Balder gave their best. Otherwise I would mention how she passed out against Lumen Sage, again and again. Also, pretty much is the last fight at their best that counts, not the ones before that that clearly show that Bayo was still improving.

Owned him in the sense that she landed more attacks, caused him more damage, destroyed his armor, fend off his attacks, and crashed a giant anti matter particle cannon against him while he was screaming in terror.

"This is being magnitudes stronger than you were a literal minute prior for absolutely no reason whatsoever."

Yeap, pretty much that. We are not judging the quality of Kamiya's writing, we are judging evidence form the game. That's how FF7 characters and Dante got their tiers. They pulled bullshit powerups, but the results still stand.

 

[Melted_Love]

Hey Aza can we just take a break until tomorrow and not close the thread. We are all tired so I thinks it's best for us to regain our energy and composure.

I'm not going to close it. I would like input from Ant and other higher ups whom I trust with matters such as these.

Can you also mention to them that characters from the Nasuverse with Anti-World attacks deserve to be 3A, since pretty much they can destroy/shatter/overwrite/erase any false universe or pocket dimension, no matter their size?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

There is no little evidence, as long as it is evidence it has value. You still don't reject any of the points of my original post with a valid argument. You just said that it's "aesthetics", and assume that he wasn't taking the fight seriously. You don't show evidence for your claims, but rather opinions, not facts.

Also, the chocking was before he turned into Aesir, reminder that I'm judging just the Aesir fight, since that was the moment when Bayo and Balder gave their best. Otherwise I would mention how she passed out against Lumen Sage, again and again. Also, pretty much is the last fight at their best that counts, not the ones before that that clearly show that Bayo was still improving.

Owned him in the sense that she landed more attacks, caused him more damage, destroyed his armor, fend off his attacks, and crashed a giant anti matter particle cannon against him while he was screaming in terror.

"This is being magnitudes stronger than you were a literal minute prior for absolutely no reason whatsoever."

Yeap, pretty much that. We are not judging the quality of Kamiya's writing, we are judging evidence form the game. That's how FF7 characters and Dante got their tiers. They pulled bullshit powerups, but the results still stand.

If evidence AGAINST something outweighs evidence FOR something by a substantial amount, then the latter is considered to be "little evidence".

You can not completely ignore what happened in a fight against someone explicitly weaker than Aesir moments before the Aesir fight simply because that opponent wasn't Aesir, despite said opponent being the previous, much weaker form of Aesir.

The only time I remember him screaming is when she tosses the satellite back at him, and once it hits him, he's taken little damage and just grunts in annoyance.

Except that isn't evidence from the game. It's the assumption that Bayonetta and Balder were on equal footing with Aesir, which is not only a very shaky claim, but the opposite is suggested by events immediately prior to the fight. Even so, we have things called "outliers", you know. There's a reason Master Roshi isn't Moon level and Spider-Man isn't Solar System level. If there is almost no reason for an upgrade, it should not blindly be accepted.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

That's a battle for a different playground. Not here. This is my last message for real this time.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Can you also mention to them that characters from the Nasuverse with Anti-World attacks deserve to be 3A, since pretty much they can destroy/shatter/overwrite/erase any false universe or pocket dimension, no matter their size?

I've literally never read anything from the Nasuverse, so it would be better to ask Promestein or KamiYasha if you have legitimate concerns about that.

 

[Antvasima]

I definitely agree with Azathoth. Everybody else, please immediately and permanently drop this topic, as it is hereby forbidden from being brought up in this wiki again. Azathoth has been incredibly nice and patient in indulging you for much longer than I would have done.

 

[Antvasima]

We should probably close this thread.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

We should probably close this thread.

If you must, I guess. I am done, for now.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for your patience.