Possible Jubileus's upgrade?

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well his face-armor seems damaged (From before his power was drained). I doubt his armor would have lower dura than the rest of his body.

I don't know if looking smug and being haughty is really a good reason to assume he holds back his Tier 3 power to Tier 5. Especially considering he has shown actual damage like Dragon pointed out. It's pretty much how Frisk damages Omega Flowey. The latter acts smug and is only barely damaged, but he still is. And then he gets a huge downgrade that makes it much easier to deal with him.

(Again take my arguments with a grain of salt)

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

When? Aesir shows no damage whatsoever until Loki erases the eyes, reverting him to a much weaker form.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The video you just posted literally shows him having damage to his facial armor right before Loki erases the Eyes

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Isn't it exactly the moment where his eyes are taken? I doubt that being depowered would suddenly break his wings. Logically he should have taken the damage beforehand. (He didn't show damage in-game because **** making new models for each damage the boss takes)

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Based on that cutscene we could see that that face helmet thing he wears is broken. And why would all of that suddenly break when he loses his power? Based on the close up and the shot right afterward it looks as though his wing and helmet are already broken.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Aesir's facial armor has been broken, slightly. How does that translate to Aesir himself having sustained significant damage to his universal form? Especially when he doesn't even show to feel weaker until the eyes are gone. I mean shit, he can barely even WALK from Bayo and Balder's beating after that, while he showed no signs of fatigue while he still had both eyes.

Not to mention, immediately afterwards Balder struggles to contain a bodiless, eyeless Aesir on his own.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

The cutscene of him with the eyes didn't last long enough to hear him breathe or anything as it instantly cut to seeing his eyes removed. However, we did see the physical damage dealt while in that Homestuck video I didn't really see the guy physically damaged.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Aesir's armor looks almost part of his body. I REALLY doubt he just has much slower armor durability. Not only would that make little sense (Armor weaker than the body?), you also talked yourself about how Aesir doesn't have clothes.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Dragon

No, you saw damage to Aesir's "armor", which barely even qualifies as armor and is more an ornate decoration which doesn't even protect his body in any way, shape, or form. It's literally several strands of metal circling his being. Aesir's physical body showed no harm until both eyes were removed, at which point he could barely walk.

@Saikou

See above. All the damage Aesir himself feels happens as soon as the eyes are erased, and he is clearly shocked by it.

 

[Melted_Love]

Azathoth we need to have a serious debate regarding the nature of an universal feat, anyone can participate if you want. It seems that the page lacks good and well established criteria to distinguish an actual universe from a pocket dimension. This page lacks rules to determine what is an real universal feat. For example, here is a rule that I propose to distinguish an actual universe from a fake one or poor excuse of a dimension: Even if its creator dies, is sealed away, or goes to another dimension, the universe should not crumble, ceased to exist, or be destroyed. It should remain as an independent existence from its creator.

By they way, his back armor was also broken, the fatigue was because he was straining himself, putting effort into the fight, and while getting attacked by Bayo or having the Shirogane Comet crashing against him he tries to protect himself, sometimes screams, and even takes some time to recover from the blow. He showed signs of getting hurt in battle.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Again, I will state that Aesir himself shows literally no signs of fatigue until the Eyes are erased. IMMEDIATELY upon losing them, Aesir collapses to the ground, can barely even walk, looks incredibly shocked and worried, and can't even fight back as Bayo and Balder wail on him. It's not like he was a frail individual back when he had neither of the Eyes, so it's clearly at that moment that he started feeling the beatings take their toll on him, which would suggest he paid them no mind while he had both eyes.

Not to mention, again, eyeless, bodiless Aesir manages to cause Balder trouble and eventually overpower him.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

They wouldn't have his actual body be damaged. Other than all the stuff that was damaged, he is basically naked. They would need to have literal chunk of him taken out or something for damage to show.

Not only that but the only proof that Aesir was holding back is his behavior (Which happens so often with villains it would be ridiculous to just consider that) and the fact that this guy apparently struggled with Eyeless Aesir (Which kinda contradicts how you said that Aesir was kinda getting his shit kicked after the removal of the eyes).

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Azathoth we need to have a serious debate regarding the nature of an universal feat, anyone can participate if you want. It seems that the page lacks good and well established criteria to distinguish an actual universe from a pocket dimension. This page lacks rules to determine what is an real universal feat. For example, here is a rule that I propose to distinguish an actual universe from a fake one or poor excuse of a dimension: Even if its creator dies, is sealed away, or goes to another dimension, the universe should not crumble, ceased to exist, or be destroyed. It should remain as an independent existence from its creator.
By they way, his back armor was also broken, the fatigue was because he was straining himself, putting effort into the fight, and while getting attacked by Bayo or having the Shirogane Comet crashing against him he tries to protect himself, sometimes screams, and even takes some time to recover from the blow. He showed signs of getting hurt in battle.

The first paragraph is for an entirely different discussion, it seems.

He showed no damage during the battle though, and the battle itself is not a canon cutscene we can properly judge all events from. Again, he showed no actual serious fatigue during any scripted scenes until he lost the Eyes, and he was clearly shocked about it, and then promptly got his ass kicked.

 

[Melted_Love]

He didn't overpower Balder all the way though, when he tried to escape Balder didn't allowed him, he made him die as a mortal with thim. Balder won the struggle in the very end, he overpowered him. And again, Aesir is took damage through the battle, even in the elaborated Shirogane Comet scene. And the point still stands that Bayo and Balder managed to fight him back, defend against his attacks, and survived the battle with less way hits than him. The lack of damaged clothes and wounds are enough evidence.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

They wouldn't have his actual body be damaged. Other than all the stuff that was damaged, he is basically naked. They would need to have literal chunk of him taken out or something for damage to show.
Not only that but the only proof that Aesir was holding back is his behavior (Which happens so often with villains it would be ridiculous to just consider that) and the fact that this guy apparently struggled with Eyeless Aesir (Which kinda contradicts how you said that Aesir was kinda getting his shit kicked after the removal of the eyes).

You can show cuts and wounds on a person without having them be literally eviscerated.

Again, so Lord English wasn't holding back against the ghosts? Because that implies 12-D ghosts. Aesir's body became weak after he lost the eyes. His body was then almost immediately destroyed. His weakened spirit attempted to flee, but Balder intercepted him. Even then, he mentioned Balder was foolish to think he could contain his power, and even Loki mentioned that he wouldn't be able to get rid of Aesir and Aesir would eventually consume him, which as the first game shows, he did.

That was bodiless, eyeless Aesir. If Balder was truly in any way comparable to Aesir during the height of his power, he would have had zero trouble containing him, and I doubt Aesir would have corrupted him and turned him into what he is in Bayonetta 1...and also made him immeasurably weaker.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Plus like I said the cutscene jumps straight to Aesir getting the eyes removed. Also those other parts of his body should be around the same durability as he is. Aside from fatigue which can be argued since the cutscene jumped straight to his eys, multiple things point to Aesir being damaged. From the broken design. A broken "outfit" usually signifies damage in fiction. Of course we don't know what to call Aesir's "accessories. I stand by the fact that the two damaged him.

 

[Melted_Love]

Oh and there is no doubt that Bayo and Balder with the Eyes are 3A, true they are getting a boost from the original Aesir's power, but they still are considered 3A. Just like when Doom became all powerful with the Beyonder's power. They are also good controlling the Eyes, because they are the best individuals that manipulate light and darkness. Just the best of the best get to manifest the Eyes of the World.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

He didn't overpower Balder all the way though, when he tried to escape Balder didn't allowed him, he made him die as a mortal with thim. Balder won the struggle in the very end, he overpowered him. And again, Aesir is took damage through the battle, even in the elaborated Shirogane Comet scene. And the point still stands that Bayo and Balder managed to fight him back, defend against his attacks, and survived the battle with less way hits than him. The lack of damaged clothes and wounds are enough evidence.

He did end up overpowering Balder, though. Well technically, Loptr did, but still. That's the reason Balder is an antagonist in Bayo 1. Balder didn't exactly win the struggle, either. He died.

Again, see the Homestuck example.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

His body if full of stars and shit. Little cuts would have been hard to notice, and with all the accessories damage, I think it's clear they wanted damage to stand out.

The sheer fact that English could murder people on a whim during the same fight is proof enough that his flies smacking aren't with the intention to kill. Not only that but English never showed major damage. Or Damage at all.

It just looks like to me that the power gap between Two Eyes Aesir and Eyeless Aesir isn't that large.

 

[Melted_Love]

He overpowered him, watched the prologue. Loptr's essence is desperately tying to escape, but Balder manages to retain him, and finallyy act and speak as himself to him. He killed Loptr by forcing to die with him. Balder had the last laugh.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

He didn't overpower Balder all the way though, when he tried to escape Balder didn't allowed him, he made him die as a mortal with thim. Balder won the struggle in the very end, he overpowered him. And again, Aesir is took damage through the battle, even in the elaborated Shirogane Comet scene. And the point still stands that Bayo and Balder managed to fight him back, defend against his attacks, and survived the battle with less way hits than him. The lack of damaged clothes and wounds are enough evidence.

He did end up overpowering Balder, though. Well technically, Loptr did, but still. That's the reason Balder is an antagonist in Bayo 1. Balder didn't exactly win the struggle, either. He died.
Again, see the Homestuck example.

Balder died after the events of Bayonetta 1 after sealing Aesir's soul in his body so he would die along with him

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Thing is in Homestuck English showed no signs of physical damage unlike Aesir.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

His body if full of stars and shit. Little cuts would have been hard to notice, and with all the accessories damage, I think it's clear they wanted damage to stand out.
The sheer fact that English could murder people on a whim during the same fight is proof enough that his flies smacking aren't with the intention to kill. Not only that but English never showed major damage. Or Damage at all.

It just looks like to me that the power gap between Two Eyes Aesir and Eyeless Aesir isn't that large.

And so Aesir, the guy who could just erase things from existence, wasn't toying around?

If the gap between 2 Eyes Aesir and Eyeless Aesir isn't that large, Jubileus wouldn't have needed both Eyes to reunite the Trinity and perform a Universe level feat, Aesir wouldn't have even wanted the Eyes back, and it would also mean he literally made Bayonetta and Balder, who he previously overpowered as Lopter, STRONGER by taking the Eyes from them.

Again, scaling like this is nonsensical.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Balder died after the events of Bayonetta 1 after sealing Aesir's soul in his body so he would die along with him

I am referring to Balder and Loptr.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Thing is in Homestuck English showed no signs of physical damage unlike Aesir.

Again, that's the thing, though. Aesir himself does not show signs of damage aside from getting smacked around. His ornamental shit is broken. Aesir himself is just smacked around.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

We have allowed scaling like this to be done before, Like with the Tifa situation. This according to Saikou is very similar. Like I said Aesir was injured while English in the example you showed was not.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

We have allowed scaling like this to be done before, Like with the Tifa situation. This according to Saikou is very similar. Like I said Aesir was injured while English in the example you showed was not.

Again, Aesir himself was not injured. Nobody has shown any proof of this. His ornamental armour being busted up does not mean Aesir himself sustained significant damage, and said damage was only actually felt when he lost the Eyes.

Again, I am not familiar with the Tifa situation, but I highly doubt it is the same as

Loptr => Balder and Bayonetta with both Eyes

Aesir with both Eyes <= Balder and Bayonetta with neither Eye

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Having his ornamental stuff broken is reason enough to say he was injured. Like I said in fiction any injuries the person's outfit takes often contributes to their overall fatigue. Like I said Aesir was physically injured. Heck when he tried to legit kill Bayonetta, he was damaged.

 

[Melted_Love]

Azathoth, you have shown no evidence of why Balder and Bayo at their prime should not be 3A, specially when they have the Eyes and cooperate in the end. The fact that Aesir showed signs of pain and getting hurt on battle still remain. And remember the presence of damaged armor and the fatigue when compared to his rivals. Balder and Bayo got ther Eyes stolen, but they didn't show fatigue as bad as Loptr. If Aesir is 3A, then why he didn't manage to kill, hurt badly, or at least leave a scratch on Balder and Bayo? He was fighting them for at least 3 minutes.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

AP =/= DC or Reality Warping. It could always be just that.

It's not too uncommon for stuff like that in fiction to happen anyway. Heroes being able to fight Villain with a Super powerup, yet the villain still gets beaten.

I'd question why the authors would make Aesir looks all beaten up if he was so much higher Bayo in that fight.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Azathoth, you have shown no evidence of why Balder and Bayo at their prime should not be 3A, specially when they have the Eyes and cooperate in the end. The fact that Aesir showed signs of pain and getting hurt on battle still remain. And remember the presence of damaged armor and the fatigue when compared to his rivals. Balder and Bayo got ther Eyes stolen, but they didn't show fatigue as bad as Loptr. If Aesir is 3A, then why he didn't manage to kill, hurt badly, or at least leave a scratch on Balder and Bayo? He was fighting them for at least 3 minutes.

Except this IS the evidence. Loptr himself, who has NEITHER Eye and was EXPLICITLY weaker than his true self overpowered Bayo and Balder with both Eyes.

Does it make sense to say Bayo and Balder are comparable to full power Aesir when he then had both Eyes and they had neither?

No. Of course not.

As I already said, Loptr was fine when he had neither Eye. He showed fatigue because it was clearly AFTER the Eyes were erased that he started feeling the hurt Bayo and Balder had been putting on him.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

AP =/= DC or Reality Warping. It could always be just that.

Except that "reality warping" would be the only reason for him being 3-A, in the first place. So if anything, that would just point to Aesir not having 3-A dura (which I don't personally believe would be accurate but whatever).

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I don't think damage works like that. If you no sell hits from enemies, you won't start to feel the pain after you got your durability downgraded.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I don't think damage works like that. If you no sell hits from enemies, you won't start to feel the pain after you got your durability downgraded.

Pretty sure it does in fiction, especially since, as I've already said, Loptr himself was perfectly capable of owning Bayo and Balder when he had neither Eye, but when Aesir lost both Eyes, he could barely walk, despite being shocked about this and being totally fine just a moment before.

 

[Melted_Love]

Because even if they lost their Eyes, Balder and Bayo still are the most powerful characters that represent light and darkness in the Bayonetta universe (for sure stronger than a badly resurrected Jubileus). It's pretty much the only battle with actual tension and effort put by both at the same time. Also, we are working with power scaling, if somebody manages to fight against a tier 3A, they also received a boost in tiers. That's how Dante and FF7 character's reached high tiers. Not because of their feats, but because they hurt, fought better, or killed a being with those feats. So Azathoth, whats your veredict, based on actual evidence? Don't be biased, please. You know the truth in your heart and can pretty much see it by reading how everyone else's agrees.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Yet from what I've seen he was getting gancked to death without the eyes in the fight. Pretty sure he wouldn't hold back after getting most of his power taken from him.

Also he wasn't "totally fine". Like Dragon keeps saying, it cut directly to him getting his eyes taken, we don't see his state beforehand. He just looks kinda shocked to have his eyes taken.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yet from what I've seen he was getting gancked to death without the eyes in the fight. Pretty sure he wouldn't hold back after getting most of his power taken from him.
Also he wasn't "totally fine". Like Dragon keeps saying, it cut directly to him getting his eyes taken, we don't see his state beforehand. He just looks kinda shocked to have his eyes taken.

As I literally just said, that's because he started feeling the pain. Loptr, who is literally what Aesir was before taking both Eyes, overpowered Bayo and Balder.

Yeah, he literally falls to the ground and is now shocked. I'm pretty sure he wasn't in that state, beforehand.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I'm going to mention something, as this came to mind due to Saikou bringing up reality warping.

If people believe Bayo and Balder were legitimately hurting Aesir despite the fact that he had both Eyes, then there's only a few options, and one of them definitely isn't 3-A Bayo with no Eye.

1. As I've already said, it's likely Aesir himself was not actually feeling any damage until he lost both Eyes. Aesir remains 3-A in AP and dura.

2. Since Loptr, who was just Aesir with no Eyes, was perfectly capable of overpowering Bayo and Balder when they each had one, the entire fight is inconsistent, and Bayo and Balder don't scale. Aesir remains 3-A in AP and dura.

3. Since the only reason for the 3-A in the first place is the Eyes of the World reuniting the Trinity, which as Saikou said, is possibly reality warping, Aesir is dropped to scale to Bayo and Balder, only getting a 3-A via non-combat reality warping.

I still believe 1. is most likely. There is no simply "everyone is 3-A" option because it completely chooses to ignore the obvious problem that Loptr with no eyes overpowered Bayo and Balder with both, while assuming they scale to Aesir when he had both and they had neither.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

snip

So Balder, who powered a badly resurrected Jubileus, is now magnitudes stronger?

This is bias towards a series you love. I am not being biased against it. Critical thinking needs to apply here, and ignoring the blatantly faulty scaling just to make Bayo 3-A isn't going to work.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

How do you know he wasn't? His damaged "attire" leads us to believe and provides us with some ground to say he was indeed injured. I still hold firm that the two injured him. My plea for "possibly 3-A" stands.