Possible Jubileus's upgrade?

[Melted_Love]

"Loptr, who is literally what Aesir was before taking both Eyes, overpowered Bayo and Balder."

When did he overpowered them after he turned into Aesir? They hold their gound better than him. Balder was blown ouf ot the scenario... without any injury and scratch, and Bayo owned him alone for the rest of the battle. Aesir never looked like he was having the upper hand. And that was then they didn't have the Eyes. Also, showing more exhaustion and having your armor broken (unlike your opponent) isn't a sign of having an advantage.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

He gets up right after and looks pretty normal. Just seems like the momentarly shock from getting his powah stolen. It makes more sense than having accumulated damage.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Heck if you want to bring up that there were no injuries on Aesir's body, Bayonetta had no. I'll watch the vid again but I don't remember her showing any fatigue.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

snip

Literally the first thing he does before the fight is forcefully take Bayo and Balder's eyes. It's how the entire thing starts.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

If he does that then how do Bayonetta and Balder manage to injure him?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

If he does that then how do Bayonetta and Balder manage to injure him?

Did you watch the scene before the battle? Because LITERALLY the first things that happen are he takes Balder's Eye, fights Bayo, overpowers and chokes her, takes her Eye, tosses her to the ground, and becomes Aesir.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Does taking the eyes means being stronger than its possessor? I'm not too knowledgable about Bayonetta lore.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Does taking the eyes means being stronger than its possessor? I'm not too knowledgable about Bayonetta lore.

I don't think it has to...but he literally does so by beating the shit out of them.

 

[Melted_Love]

1. He was feeling damage, he screams and feels pain while fighting Bayo and Balder, and after the Shirogane Comet crashes into him, he takes some times to recover from that.

2. The Prophet's statement comes in. Bayo was forfeiting in their first fight, and he took the Eyes away from them after he stole the power to do that from Loki. Before taking Loki's power we don't know if he could have defeated a totally serious and all out Balder and Bayonetta using their Eyes efficiently. We know that he couldn't by the end of the game after Loki gave them back to the pair.

3. Well, he was wrapping reality in the fight, controlling space-time as best as he could. It's evident that he was putting effort and everything he could to eliminate them, even as going as far as using an antimatter cannon against them. Otherwise, Loptr wouldn't have exhausted himself that much.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

From what I see, Loptr had one eye when he took on Bayo one-on-one. Later they fight his 2 eyed from on two on two. They don't have to be fully equal to him. Just be able to fight back and damage his armor. (He also got his shit kicked later. I don't think being "weakened" by the previous "beating" is enough, as he looked quite eager and ready to smack them.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

1. He was feeling damage, he screams and feels pain while fighting Bayo and Balder, and after the Shirogane Comet crashes into him, he takes some times to recover from that.
2. The Prophet's statement comes in. Bayo was forfeiting in their first fight, and he took the Eyes away from them after he stole the power to do that from Loki. Before taking Loki's power we don't know if he could have defeated a totally serious and all out Balder and Bayonetta using their Eyes efficiently. We know that he couldn't by the end of the game after Loki gave them back to the pair.

3. Well, he was wrapping reality in the fight, controlling space-time as best as he could. It's evident that he was putitng effort and everything he could to eliminate, even as going as far as using an antimatter cannon against them. Otherwise, Loptr wouldn't have exhausted himself that much.

1. That does not support him feeling even close to all of the damage, though. Grunts are a long way off from barely even being able to stand up.

2. How was she forfeiting the fight? She fights back against him and legitimately loses before he takes the eye. The fight ends with him overpowering her, choking her, and then taking the Eye.

3. I wouldn't say he exhausted himself, or even used a significant amount of his true power. However, he was definitely using a lot of his power by Lopter's standards. Look at how weak he is once he actually loses the Eyes.

 

[Melted_Love]

"Literally the first thing he does before the fight is forcefully take Bayo and Balder's eyes. It's how the entire thing starts."

Actually, the first thing he did was steal Loki's power to control the Eyes, so that he could remove them from them without even fighting. He didn't even fight Balder to take away his Eye. That was thanks to Loki's Sovereign Power.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

From what I see, Loptr had one eye when he took on Bayo one-on-one. Later they fight his 2 eyed from on two on two. They don't have to be fully equal to him. Just be able to fight back and damage his armor. (He also got his shit kicked later. I don't think being "weakened" by the previous "beating" is enough, as he looked quite eager and ready to smack them.

He had one Eye that he had just taken from Balder while having none.

Also, he was certainly not "eager" to continue fighting after losing both Eyes. He could barely walk.

Also, after rewatching the whole fight, to put the whole "Aesir's armor is as durable as the rest of him" to rest, when Balder tries to stab Loptr immediately prior, he hits Loptr's head armor, shattering it but merely making Loptr take a step back and mock him.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

"Literally the first thing he does before the fight is forcefully take Bayo and Balder's eyes. It's how the entire thing starts."
Actually, the first thing he did was steal Loki's power to control the Eyes, so that he could remove them from them without even fighting. He didn't even fight Balder to take away his Eye. That was thanks to Loki's Sovereign Power.

He did fight Bayonetta, though.

Immediately afterwards.

And win.

Really, really easily.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

You say he beat the crap out of them yet it seems to me that they were just as "fazed" as Aesir was when he took their eyes. Then they soon seemed no worse for wear. Balder who took the full brunt of his attack was soon able to move without too much issue. I would say this whole thing would warrent an "At Least 3-B, possibly 3-A rating."

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

You say he beat the crap out of them yet it seems to me that they were just as "fazed" as Aesir was when he took their eyes. Then they soon seemed no worse for wear. Balder who took the full brunt of his attack was soon able to move without too much issue. I would say this whole thing would warrent an "At Least 3-B, possibly 3-A rating."

He did beat the crap out of them, though. Balder was down for the count all the way up until Lopter became Aesir, and Bayo was unable to stop herself from helplessly being strangled. Again, this was all done by Loptr, not Aesir.

Meanwhile, Aesir himself had no time to regain his composure after losing both Eyes, because Bayo and Balder summon Omne, who destroys his body.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

From what I see from Loptr's fight with Bayo neither were really injured. He was overpowering her demons yes, but she alone can overpower her demons. Like stated earlier he uses Loki's power to control the eyes.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

From what I see from Loptr's fight with Bayo neither were really injured. He was overpowering her demons yes, but she alone can overpower her demons. Like stated earlier he uses Loki's power to control the eyes.

...what? He explicitly overpowers Bayonetta. He chokes her and she can't break free. He takes her Eye and carelessly tosses her to the ground. It's very, very clearly a victory in Loptr's favor.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Like when she lost balance from the shockwaves? Plus like I said he had Loki's power, which in fact controlled her eye. At the time as shown with Balder when the eye is being controlled/taken the weilder cannot really do much to escape.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

@Azathoth he stumbled a bit, and then got back up and seemed really pissed at having his power taken off by worthless beings. It's not like he was on the verge of passing out or something. Not something that excuses the beating he recieved.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Uh, no. She lost balance from the shockwaves when he KO'd Balder.

After that, he takes Balder's Eye and fights Bayo.

Bayo loses, very, very clearly.

Loptr chokes her, all while taking his time to mock her because she can't do anything, then he takes her Eye.

That's an incredibly obvious victory.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Azathoth he stumbled a bit, and then got back up and seemed really pissed at having his power taken off by worthless beings. It's not like he was on the verge of passing out or something. Not something that excuses the beating he recieved.

He looked pissed, then stumbled more, then got his body destroyed by Omne.

That's what happens next. Bayo and Balder barely even fight him on their own, after that point.

Edit: Just checked. The time after Aesir loses his power and then gets owned by Omne is about 12 seconds, and all he does during that time is stumble around and get beat up. So yeah, he didn't really have any time to regain his composure.

 

[Melted_Love]

At least 3B without the Eyes. With the Eyes and fighting perfectly as father and daughter in an all out super serious fight, they're are easily 3A. It's not a debate, but a proven fact thanks to the lore and th fact that the Eyes can be used by Balder, Bayonetta, and Loptr with Loki's Sovereign Power absorbed. They are the most powerful characters in any Platinum Games and games related to their other studios (except for Viewtiful Joe, I'm still analyzing that one). Hell, I even considered facts that a non-Platinum Game fan would never get by himself and backed up everything to consider a well done power scaling.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

At least 3B without the Eyes. With the Eyes and fighting perfectly as father and daughter in an all out super serious fight, they're are easily 3A. It's not a debate, but a proven fact thanks to the lore and th fact that the Eyes can be used by Balder, Bayonetta, and Loptr with Loki's Sovereign Power absorbed. They are the most powerful characters in any Platinum Games and games related to their other studios (except for Viewtiful Joe, I'm still analyzing that one). Hell, I even considered facts that a non-Platinum Game fan would never get by himself and backed up everything to consider a well done power scaling.

Again, this is an arbitrary rating assuming Bayo and Balder = full power Aesir, despite the fact that immediately before that, Loptr was perfectly capable of holding his own against and eventually overpowering more powerful versions of Bayo and Balder.

As for the "they broke his armor" argument, as I've already stated, during the same fight, Loptr's armor is shattered by a blow which caused him no harm and merely made him mock Balder.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

@Azathoth Still doesn't explain getting suddenly overpowered. Between getting back from stumbling and fightning, he clearly had time to recover.

 

[Melted_Love]

@Azathoth he stumbled a bit, and then got back up and seemed really pissed at having his power taken off by worthless beings. It's not like he was on the verge of passing out or something. Not something that excuses the beating he recieved.

He looked pissed, then stumbled more, then got his body destroyed by Omne.
That's what happens next. Bayo and Balder barely even fight him on their own, after that point.

Edit: Just checked. The time after Aesir loses his power and then gets owned by Omne is about 12 seconds, and all he does during that time is stumble around and get beat up. So yeah, he didn't really have any time to regain his composure.

So? The points of my first post still remain, I don't care that he didn't have time to recover from exhaustion- I care about the fact that he was hurt through the battle, screamed in pain, got hits landed on him, and put effort into the fight, got his armor/clothes, and never mantained the upperhand in the final fight as Aesir.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Azathoth Still doesn't explain getting suddenly overpowered. Between getting back from stumbling and fightning, he clearly had time to recover.

I've explained why he was suddenly overpowered, already. The damage he took as Aesir clearly took its toll on him when he lost that power, hence why he's so obviously weakened. Also, as SOON as the fight begins again, he's still clearly stumbling around and gets wailed on.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

So? The points of my first post still remain, I don't care that he didn't have time to recover from exhaustion- I care about the fact that he was hurt through the battle, screamed in pain, got hits landed on him, and put effort into the fight, got his armor/clothes, and never mantained the upperhand in the final fight as Aesir.

Again, as I've stated MULTIPLE times before, the armor means jack shit. Balder busted Loptr's armor with a hit that just made Loptr mock him.

You also keep saying he screamed in pain, despite the facting that he far more often just grunts when he gets hit but shows no serious signs of damage.

Finally, it's very, VERY clear from all of his dialogue that Aesir fancied himself invincible. He had no idea he'd suddenly lose the eyes in the middle of the battle, and takes plenty of time to monologue and mock our protagonists. He saw no need to end the battle so quickly.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Man these notifications are killing me... Anyway you say clear victory when we can also hear painfilled grunts from him during that fight as well. Also you state that he mocked Balder. However, Frieza mocked Goku during their fight yet Goku was able to legit hurt frieza. There is also nothing saying that getting a second eye is THAT much of a boost after having one eye. The man could still have been Universal then and then suddenly gain such a huge buff. I don't see what's wrong with the "At least 3-B, possbly 3-A" since other character have been upgraded due to literally one word or something similar to this.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

That's...not exactly stumbling.

Also again, damage doesn't accumulate like that. It's not even a common logic-breaking trope as far as I know.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Man these notifications are killing me... Anyway you say clear victory when we can also hear painfilled grunts from him during that fight as well. Also you state that he mocked Balder. However, Frieza mocked Goku during their fight yet Goku was able to legit hurt frieza. There is also nothing saying that getting a second eye is THAT much of a boost after having one eye. The man could still have been Universal then and then suddenly gain such a huge buff. I don't see what's wrong with the "At least 3-B, possbly 3-A" since other character have been upgraded due to literally one word or something similar to this.

Pained grunts are by no means a sign Bayo was winning. The SECOND her back is turned, he darts over and starts choking her, mocking her while he has no signs of injury. Literally nothing implies Bayonetta was ever in control during that fight against Loptr.

Again, being universal SPECIFICALLY comes from statements about both Eyes. We cannot just backwards scale everyone to Tier 3 because of it. Hell, I may even be wrong in assuming the Eyes scale to his dura, though I believe they do.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

That's...not exactly stumbling.
Also again, damage doesn't accumulate like that. It's not even a common logic-breaking trope as far as I know.

Did...did you watch the next second of the video? Because he immediately continues stumbling. Like, immediately. He doesn't fight back. He just stumbles then gets wailed on.

Except here, it's clear that it did, since Loptr was not weak without both Eyes, and when he had both Eyes, Aesir was still perfectly fine, though became shocked and weak when they vanished. We even SEE him fall to the ground the moment after they're taken away.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I never once said she was winning or in control. Not once. I said that she was able to damage him. He has no signs of injury, Neither does Bayo. So the same logic applies. This would lead us the believe that he used Loki's power to stop Bayonetta.

 

[Melted_Love]

@Azathoth Still doesn't explain getting suddenly overpowered. Between getting back from stumbling and fightning, he clearly had time to recover.

I've explained why he was suddenly overpowered, already. The damage he took as Aesir clearly took its toll on him when he lost that power, hence why he's so obviously weakened. Also, as SOON as the fight begins again, he's still clearly stumbling around and gets wailed on.

Azathoth, you're stating that the damage he received had a toll on Loptr when he lost the Eyes, and I'm not against that. I mentioned that in my first post on this discussion thread. But you can clearly see that even as Aesir, he was taking damage from Bayo and Balder. He was fast as Aesir to manage to take Bayo's Eye from her, but when they go all out, Balder and Bayo keep up with Aesir's speed and land attacks on him. The Shirogane Comet scene hurting Aesir still stands, the same goes to his broken armor. He was screaming, he was getting hurt... as Aesir. He didn't manage to leave a wound or sratch on their bodies, they survided him without relying on the Eyes. Balder and Bayo had the upperhand in that fight. We don't know how thing would have gone without Loki's intervention in the long run, but in the short run they won. If this was boxing, its obvious who the winner (or winners) is.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I don't know if I stated this, but he doesn't seem like the kind of guy to just mimic grunts of pain to makes it seems like Bayo has a chance.

That's not stumbling at all. He gets his shit beaten out, but if he was so dazed by the lost of his eyes as to literally stands there and take damage, it would have been shown so in the cinematic.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I never once said she was winning or in control. Not once. I said that she was able to damage him. He has no signs of injury, Neither does Bayo. So the same logic applies. This would lead us the believe that he used Loki's power to stop Bayonetta.

You imply he was legitimately getting hurt while nothing points to this.

You imply he used Loki's power to stop Bayo while nothing points to this.

He literally chokes her.

He rushes her and ******* chokes her with his hand.

It's insane to assume he didn't just straight up overpower her, at the moment.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Azathoth, you're stating that the damage he received had a toll on Loptr when he lost the Eyes, and I'm not against that. I mentioned that in my first post on this discussion thread. But you can clearly see that even as Aesir, he was taking damage from Bayo and Balder. He was fast as Aesir to manage to take Bayo's Eye from her, but when they go all out, Balder and Bayo keep up with Aesir's speed and land attacks on him. The Shirogane Comet scene hurting Aesir still stands, the same goes to his broken armor. He was screaming, he was getting hurt... as Aesir. He didn't manage to leave a wound or sratch on their bodies, they survided him without relying on the Eyes. Balder and Bayo had the upperhand in that fight. We don't know how thing would have gone without Loki's intervention in the long run, but in the short run they won. If this was boxing, its obvious who the winner (or winners) is.

Again, I've already said why Aesir had no need to consider it a serious battle.

I've already said why he suffered nothing but superficial damage.

I've already said why Loptr being superior to Bayo and Balder while Aesir being weaker than Bayo and Balder makes very, very little sense.

These points need to be addressed. We cannot go with "it sounds like he was hurt, so they scale", and again, his armor is clearly not as durable. See the scene immediately prior when Balder tries to stab Loptr.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

That's not stumbling at all. He gets his shit beaten out, but if he was so dazed by the lost of his eyes as to literally stands there and take damage, it would have been shown so in the cinematic.

...what?

Yes, it very clearly is. He stumbles forwards with his hands shakily by his sides, then Bayo and Balder rush him, and he doesn't fight back.

He didn't have a chance.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

So he's suddenly the type to fake grunts?

So her having no injuries in which based on YOUR logic means she should be perfectly fine leaves only that conclusion.

I never said he did not overpower her. I said based on what you've stated previously about Aesir not taking any "superficial" damage. The only reason she got overpowered was because he used his power.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Pained grunts means the opponent is taking damage. Azzy no disrespect and I truly mean that since you are one of my favorite admins so please don't take this personally; but tell me since when has pained grunts from an attack meant nothing in terms of scaling? Since when has Aesir become someone who fakes pained grunts? It isn't his character. Those pained grunts mean Bayo was actively damaging him. His appearance right before getting his eyes removed shows he was hurt.