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Possible downgrade of Homura Akemi from 2-A to 3-A

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Sharing this reddit post of mine at the start, because it'll give context for some of the things I'm about to say.

So I love Homura Akemi a lot, but I don't think Akuma Homura should be classified as 2-A or even multiversal until we see further proof of it through her abilties. Homura Akemi has obtained her new Akuma Homura form by stealing the Law of Cycles, and using it to boost her own powers. That the Law of Cycles is in Homura Akemi's possession is shown by the Rebellion Guidebook, where it shows that Homura has sealed the Law of Cycles within her ear cuff.

At the end of Rebellion, Homura's Soul Gem is tainted with the color of curses, and then also with color of something else, that the fans often refer to as "Ai Yo". After Homura captures Madoka, and then splits Madoka from the Law of Cycles, her Soul Gem cracks open, letting all the curses and "Ai Yo" free to consume the universe they are within. However, it doesn't reach beyond that, it only encapsulates the universe they are within.

That leads me to believe that Akuma Homura is at best a universal force, at least for now. Her barrier only encompasses the universe they are within, and within that universe, she is free to manipulate it as she wishes. Warping space, altering others' perception, or even erasing their memories. All quite impressive feats, but they seem to be limited to this universe alone.

While Homura may have the Law of Cycles trapped in her Ear Cuff, she doesn't seem to use it with the proficiency that Madoka does. This makes sense, since it wasn't originally her power.

To arguments that she overpowered Ultimate Madoka, and thus must be Multiversal. I'd like to point out that her attack was a magical one, so it's likely ignoring durability, but even if we assume it doesn't, it takes much less energy to split a planet in half than it does to obliterate that same planet, and since Homura only splits Madoka in half, this is likely following that same logic.

Sayaka also asks if she might destroy this world, to which Homura replies she might after the wraiths are defeated. But that again only suggests universal levels of power, as this new world she created only encompasses a single universe.

I'm open to responses if I got any of this information wrong, or missed a key detail. But I hope this explains why I think Akuma Homura is only a universal force at best.

tl;dr Homura shouldn't be listed as multiversal, as she only seems to be using the Law of Cycles to give an immense boost to her abilities, but isn't able to use it properly to be a multiversal level force. She is not Madoka's equal.
 
MYHERO said:
I cannot argue against this adequately as I am not too knowledgeable on PMMM, but I can guarantee you this will get rejected.
Why's that? Has it been argued before or something?
 
Maverick Zero X said:
The arguments here aren't very reasonable. Especially the "Homura doesn't scale to Madoka despite splitting her in half" bit.
I thought my argument for that was pretty simple, if you read the Reddit post. Homura's Witch Form, the Nutcracker Witch, was a tool specifically designed for the purpose of splitting objects. But that's all it can do, split Madoka in half. Splitting a planet in half isn't planetary level, and splitting a multiversal level being in half shouldn't be multiversal. And this is because only splitting it will allow it to eventually reform. For instance, if you cut the Earth straight down the prime meridian with a huge ****-off sword, the force of gravity would pull those two halves back together, unless you split them with such force that gravity would not do so. Similarly, it seems Madoka will eventually reform with the Law of Cycles as well. This is why I stated that Homura didn't overpower Madoka, she just split her, and why I think that isn't a multiversal level feat.
 
MYHERO said:
Because people are already planning to beat your ass on this
Just curious, where are they discussing this. It'd probably be a lot easier if I saw it. So I can rebuke their points immediately, or just accept I'm wrong if they've already countered all my claims.
 
Yeah the reasons for this downgrade are flawed.

Akuma Homura is stated by WOG to be on the same level as Ultimate Madoka.

Not only did Homura split Madoka from the LoC but she undid Madoka's rewrite of the multiverse which is a 2-A feat.

I highly doubt "destroy everything" is referring to just one universe judging by the surrounding context.

Btw the splitting a planet analogy is bad, splitting a planet in half is planet level.

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ShadowWarrior1999 said:
Btw the splitting a planet analogy is bad, splitting a planet in half is planet level.
Pretty sure Tier 5 "planet level" only refers to the destruction of a planet. Cutting a planet in half wouldn't be destroying it. However, I already accepted loss by WoG, so *shrug*
 
Schnee One said:
Cutting a planet in half is Large Planet level depending on the calculation
And I'm assuming if you cut a planet in half, and that planet reforms almost immediately afterward due to gravity, it wouldn't be planetary level, would it?
 
Yeah, this is why I said it wasn't planetary level. Because the planet wasn't destroyed. If you cut a planet in half, and those halves are separated with such force that the planet's halves are split from each other to such a degree that the planet can't reform, then you might have an argument for it being a planetary level feat. But otherwise, it doesn't seem anymore impressive than pulverizing the Earth, which is rated as moon level in the tiering system (at least for Madoka with doppel active)
 
<Because it wasn't destroyed

Then what was the point of your analogy? Was the planet destroyed or not?
 
You don't need to completely destroy a planet to quantify for 5-B. You just need to perform a feat that indicates you can output 59.44 zettatons or more, and splitting apart a planet can potentially give an energy output exceeding that.

For example, Dark Gaia.
 
The point of the original analogy was to say that splitting a planet in half doesn't automatically give a character planetary level AP, and splitting Madoka from the Law of Cycles shouldn't automatically give Homura multiversal level AP either. Because both reform almost immediately after this event occurs in both instances, and the energy required for splitting is usually much less than the energy required for destruction.
 
Splitting the planet does give planet level AP though, even higher.

Plus, Homura absorbed her strength, I don't think she divided her power in half just separated her from the law of cycles
 
Maverick Zero X said:
You don't need to completely destroy a planet to quantify for 5-B. You just need to perform a feat that indicates you can output 59.44 zettatons or more, and splitting apart a planet can potentially give an energy output exceeding that.

For example, Dark Gaia.
I already said I agree that splitting a planet in half could give AP exceeding planet level depending on the circumstances. However, if the planet reforms almost immediately after you cut it in half due to the force of gravity, it likely wasn't 59.44 zettatons worth of energy. That was my argument.
 
Schnee One said:
Plus, Homura absorbed her strength, I don't think she divided her power in half just separated her from the law of cycles
Yes, I already mentioned that Homura took the Law of Cycles (and thus Madoka's powers) as stated by the guidebook. I was arguing from the material present in the movie that it seemed like she didn't know how to use them fully, given that she only seemed to be using it to boost her Magical Girl/Witch hybrid powers, like memory manipulation (her new power in the world of wraiths) and space manipulation within her barrier (which many Witches can do).
 
Pretty sure splitting a planet in half defaults to Low 5-B. Not exactly the most important part of the thread though
 
Wokistan said:
Pretty sure splitting a planet in half defaults to Low 5-B. Not exactly the most important part of the thread though
It really isn't. Also, I'm surprised cutting a celestial body in half isn't listed under references for common feats. That would certainly make settling this a lot faster.
 
Homura CLEARLY reset everything on a Multiversal level, from what we saw in the movie.

I dunno how you got the notion that such a feat is only 3A.
 
Dragopentling said:
Homura CLEARLY reset everything on a Multiversal level, from what we saw in the movie.
I dunno how you got the notion that such a feat is only 3A.
I hard disagree with the notion that she reset everything on a multiversal level. She surrounds the universe in a barrier, and makes mention of pulling everyone else into it unintentionally. If the barrier is removed, the world underneath is likely just Madoka's World of Wraiths. Again, the way the world operates at the end of Rebellion operates very similar to Homura's labyrinth, except taken to the nth degree. She's just surrounded the universe within her pocket dimension.

Edit: Regardless, I already took the L for this thread because I wasn't aware of the WoG by Urobuchi that Homura should be considered as Madoka's equal in terms of power, and Madoka is clearly multiversal, so *shrug*
 
Leafbladie said:
Dragopentling said:
Homura CLEARLY reset everything on a Multiversal level, from what we saw in the movie.
I dunno how you got the notion that such a feat is only 3A.
I hard disagree with the notion that she reset everything on a multiversal level. She surrounds the universe in a barrier, and makes mention of pulling everyone else into it unintentionally. If the barrier is removed, the world underneath is likely just Madoka's World of Wraiths. Again, the way the world operates at the end of Rebellion operates very similar to Homura's labyrinth, except taken to the nth degree. She's just surrounded the universe within her pocket dimension.
Okay, then explain to me how she was able to steal Madoka's powers. Even a portion of those powers are still 2A.

Not that I agree with your explanation on the reset, though, cause her "pocket dimension" could very well be housing the entire multiverse that was reset, and that's still 2A.
 
Dragopentling said:
Okay, then explain to me how she was able to steal Madoka's powers. Even a portion of those powers are still 2A.
The concept is rather simple. Homura stole Madoka from the Law of Cycles (she says as much to Sayaka Miki), not the other way around. Like to put it in layman's terms, the USS Enterprise's hull has country level durability, but its engine does not. What Homura does then is remove Madoka (the engine) from the Law of Cycles (the ship), thus disabling it, and allowing her to pilot it. Anyone can wield the Law of Cycles, Bebe and Sayaka even held onto it for Madoka while they ventured within Homura's labyrinth.

Dragopentling said:
Not that I agree with your explanation on the reset, though, cause her "pocket dimension" could very well be housing the entire multiverse that was reset, and that's still 2A.
It very well could. However, from the scenes in Rebellion we see, the barrier seems to just encompass the universe they're within, and nothing beyond that. There's two ways I see this happening.

Either

A) Homura is using the Law of Cycles to boost her own powers, thus spreading the range of her pocket dimension to universe levels.

B) Simply obtaining the Law of Cycles omnipresence ability allowed her to spread the the influence of her barrier accross the infinite multiverse of the Puella Magi Verse

If A, she'd just be universal (if we didn't have WoG disproving otherwise), if B, then yeah she'd be multiversal. However, nothing within the work visually suggests this to be the case.
 
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
You do know that the World of Wraiths is the new multiverse that Madoka created, right?
So Homura resetting that is a 2-A feat.
Yes, but the Wraiths are still present, and Homura makes mention of the others being pulled into this world. To me it suggests that this "world" is just Homura's barrier, i.e. the pocket dimension within which Witches (say that 3 times fast) can be found. She didn't reset the universe she was within, so much as pull it into this barrier. People are able to wander into Witch Barriers because areas of 3-D space are turned into gateways into these dimensions, but what Homura has done is essentially make it so all of the space within this universe is that gateway, everyone has entered her dominion. This doesn't feel like a reset, even if it accomplishes similar things to what a reset might do.

Also, the way she speaks suggests the Law of Cycles is still operating elsewhere, as just a simple concept like gravity, rather than a controlled entity by Madoka Kaname (that she tore off from the Law of Cycles). This single universe is for her, to make her Madoka happy.

(I need to go to bed, and then to work immediately after, so please forgive any later replies)
 
Stealing Ôëá usage. There is literally no evidence that Homura has used Madoka's power (law of cycles) at all. That was very early speculation how Homura gained godlike powers, but it doesn't really fit to the plot and further explanation. Guidebook says Madoka's power is contained in her earring, but it most likely to simply keep it isolated.
 
GoldSingingDragons said:
Stealing Ôëá usage. There is literally no evidence that Homura has used Madoka's power (law of cycles) at all. That was very early speculation how Homura gained godlike powers, but it doesn't really fit to the plot and further explanation. Guidebook says Madoka's power is contained in her earring, but it most likely to simply keep it isolated.
Her earring is part of the Dark Orb, which is what she reformed her Soul Gem into, so I don't see why it wouldn't be drawing on the Law of Cycles like a battery source.

It would also make sense for how Homura went from someone whose memory manipulation magic was quite limited (barely being effective against regular people), to being able to rewrite the memories of everyone in the Universal Labyrinth, including Sayaka and Madoka.

Like, Wraith Arc explains why she has memory manipulation magic, which is something I always questioned while watching Rebellion, but Wraitch Arc never explains how it got so powerful, so it seems like that's left to Rebellion to answer.
 
Well if I remember the Wraith Arc correctly, the reason why Homura's Memory Magic is so powerful is because she was part of a 'true miracle' when Ult. Madoka completed her wish.

Same reason for why her Smiting magic is so powerful, and an unknown magic that Ult. Madoka would have.
 
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