• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Possible Cosmic/Dark Star upgrades.

... evidently we can? Jax's "initial impressions" clearly differ from each other. Sufficiently differ from each other.

Jax was proven right in his previous initial impressions so why should he be suddenly wrong in the present one?
 
@Heinkel, maybe because the fight may not go as how he expects it too? People can change their impressions after an encounter, you know. This is still speculation that can change/stay the same if Riot gives us an update on the fight. So far there's been no hard proof that Fiora can match Jax, so I don't see how she can scale to him based on speculation.

@Weekly, how so? I've pointed out that there isn't enough proof for the scaling to be considered valid.
 
I believe the main reason the scaling would be valid is that Jax in this instance (being as old and 'wise' as he is, considered as such even back when he was still human thousands of years ago) can be considered a sufficiently good judge of fighting character in warriors for his (trope-heavy) statement to be considered reasonably reliable. We see a first-hand example of this in the story itself. As long as a sufficiently meaningful likelihood is established it's good enough for scaling within the same order of magnitude for the purpose of simplifying generalized combat profiles between combatants who operate within the same general range (within the same universe, no less). A gap between a teenage girl (Fiora) and a healty adult man (Jax) would still put them within the same general range/order of magnitude even if it's clear who among the two still wins. The gap between dirt and human, on the other hand, would not. The fight between Umberto and Fiora would be one good example of the latter (the one between the ant and Jax too).
 
Except that Jax at no point ever talks about strength and compares it to his own. He only notes that the soldier was fast and strong, yet predictable in combat, while Fiora is intriguing due to how she carries herself in their first meeting. We have no idea what Jax really means when he says 'worth', only that 'worthy' allies must be adaptable to changes in the environment, when he talks about a storm possibly coming to the bridge. You guys have assumed one thing, I won't assume anything until we get a proper conclusion to the fight and see where Fiora stands compared to Jax.

Nothing is ever said about Fiora being far stronger than Umberto, only that she's more skilled, considering that their duel was based on prediction and speed rather than anything else.
 
The Umberto fight is actually a good example of ant vs man that, on this occasion, played out in terms of speed difference (in short, that fight can in fact be used to reason that Demacian mooks like Umberto would not scale to Fiora's speed in any way and they would indeed be placed in different speed tiers (with non-capital t). This is correct; a non-speed equalized fight between the two will simply end with Fiora blitzing him as happened in canon even if they were placed in the same Tier (with capital T). The speed difference that led to a OHK stomp was accurately represented and serves as a valid example). The Jax example, likewise, is the same ant vs man comparison which is now in terms of strength difference (among others), and would likewise be, and had been, an accurate representation of the expected/actual outcome as Umberto and Fiora's ant vs man speed comparison was. Jax has no problem just straight-up overpowering the ant to kick him off the bridge (even meeting blow for blow multiple times merely for sport).

Somehow I sincerely doubt that Riot ever intended even the most inattentive readers to possibly think that the fight between Fiora and Jax could go the same way.
 
Fiora never displays a whole tier of difference in terms of speed against Umberto, so again we have speculation. Jax's strength tier is supported by his feat of helping to take down an Ascendant, and lopping the head of one.

Again, this is still speculation about what Riot inteneded. Ever consider that maybe Jax might hold back against Fiora, considering that he was pretty much doing the same against the Demacian soldier? Unless you have solid evidence, which you have admitted you don't and no one else has said otherwise, using one statement to justify the scaling seems misleading.
 
@Regis You say youre not speculating, yet almost your entire argument is based on speculation of 'maybe this' or 'this might have happened'. There is no reason to assume that Jax would see a person several leagues weaker than himself as a rival and an opponent worth fighting.
 
My argument is based on the fact that Jax never directly compares Fiora to himself in terms of power, speed, etc, so using one statement and zero feats to justify the scaling seems a bit iffy considering the vast difference in their feats. Where is the speculation here? You on the other hand are trying to justify the statement as reliable enough to use for scaling by speculating which again, doesn't seem like the wiki standard of tiering characters.
 
So if we placed Umberto and Fiora in the same tiers for a versus as you suggested and it inevitably ends up with a stalemate, that would actually prove your method wrong because it went totally differently in canon. Therefore we cannot use your method.

The only way we can replicate those fights in this board is to put a meaningful difference between combatants where the fights would be stomps and close those gaps when they will not be. That's how this board is set up. As shown your current suggested method would come up with totally inaccurate results for canon fights.
 
Heinkel Astrea said:
So if we placed Umberto and Fiora in the same tiers for a versus as you suggested and it inevitably ends up with a stalemate, that would actually prove your method wrong because it went totally differently in canon. Therefore we cannot use your method.

The only way we can replicate those fights in this board is to put a meaningful difference between combatants where the fights would be stomps and close those gaps when they will not be. That's how this board is set up. As shown your current suggested method would come up with totally inaccurate results for canon fights.
Click to expand...
You don't need a tier of difference in terms of speed to do what Fiora did to Umberto, considering that she predicted his initial slash, got out of the way and cut his throat. Where in that is indicative of a speed tier difference?
 
No RN, I'm right. If you went and made Umberto's profile right now and argued that he should be hypersonic by scaling to Fiora by using his fight with her as evidence, everyone on this board (even from outside this board who consider Fiora more supersonic rather than hypersonic) would disagree with you after seeing this 'evidence' that actually shows him being blitzed in one move. The feat being an aim-dodge does not diminish its importance because aim-dodge still remains a meaningful variable for evaluating speed against another variable speedster (between two aim-dodgers, for example) rather than a constant (against a bullet); it simply means that Fiora can aim-dodge better than Umberto can because, quite straightforwardly, she's plain faster.

Therefore, Umberto will evidently not have the same speed tier as Fiora on VSB, because there's no such rationale at all for him to receive a hypersonic rating. He's not hypersonic, that's it, whereas Fiora is. We don't have to prove a negative. You would be the one who has to prove that Umberto is hypersonic from a fight he was killed in one hit, during the apex moment of an aim-dodge speed feat no less (again, against a variable speedster), not us. That's exactly how your method works.
 
I'm not arguing for a hypersonic Umberto, in fact I don't consider any of them to be hypersonic at all, but that's for another time. Regardless, you're still missing my point: you don't need to be super fast to do what Fiora did to Umberto and that fight never showed a difference that one might get from say a supersonic character vs a hypersonic character. Any skilled fencer could do it to another less skilled fencer. So I don't see how you can get that from the duel against Umberto, when Fiora's speed (and nearly everyone else's) scales from a completely different feat, which Fiora never reacts to?
 
'Any 'skilled' fencer'

This doesn't work in VSB system unfortunately. If you placed a Taliban insurgent and a US Marine on a football field butt-naked with only AK-47 and M1, they have 50:50 chance at beating each other in a versus despite their gap in 'skill'.

In order to make the Marine win most of the time the Marine should get a Wall level durability rating by having a USMC standard issue body armor (which he will under our rules), or you make them fight in settings outside of VSB capable of entertaining other variables (such as terrain). Replacing the marine with a Special Forces personnel would then get peak human upgrades over that in some stats in order to reflect this increase in 'skill'. A ranger's 'skill' will be expressed in the simplified form of peak human speed, and street level AP in hand-to-hand combat rather than athlete level (among others). It reflects better training, yes. Reflected in their stats.

In short, this variable 'skill' has already been sublimed into the stats themselves. Fiora's 'better skill' is being expressed in VSB by Fiora having a higher speed. This is for the simple reason that VSB operates on a relatively simplified classification system (for ease of access and persual).


For the record, your 'skilled fencer' and 'less skilled fencer' example will also be expressed in the two having different speeds, likely Peak Human/Athletic or Regular Human, when the said topic is actually turned into a real profile making endeavor. They will have different stats to begin with, rather than having notes saying 'skilled' and 'less skilled' somewhere on the profile.
 
What are you even talking about now? Once again, you don't need to be much faster than your opponent to pull off what Fiora did, so I don't see how that's indicative of a tier of speed difference?
 
Outside of VSB Fiora doesn't always need to (even though she would still be acknowledged to have higher speeds most of the time (in the supersonic range), such as why most people would say cinematic Jarvan/Fiora can bullet-time while the same people would not agree Umberto can do the same) because versus outside of VSB are capable of entertaining other more subjective variables. In VSB however these 'skill gaps' should already be expressed in terms of stats because we do not take into account such subjective variables as 'skill gaps' (one of the obvious reasons being that skill gap comparison is only possible after the opposing character has been set in each fight). All of how those increased skills would already be reflected in the form of increased stats themselves has already been done on the profile itself in a universal manner.

Under the VSB system Fiora having a higher skill than mooks is already expressed in Fiora having a higher speed.
 
Except that skill gaps aren't indicative of stat gaps. Skill is how well you can do something, nothing there that suggests a stat gap at all. Skill is already reprsented in the Powers & Abilities section where one can put stuff like Weapon Mastery. Either way, this is still derailing from the original topic of scaling Fiora to Jax, for which there is only arguments based on speculation and not on proof.
 
For the love of god RN, in VSB if you put a Skilled Fencer (from our baseline humanity) and a Less Skilled Fencer in the same versus, one of them would have Peak Human speed while the other has Regular Human speed, because their skill gap was already reflected in their speed gap. That's exactly the correct comparison you drew between those two fencers and F&U yourself; just as Skilled Fencer and Less Skilled Fencer have different speeds, so do F&U: they are simply not on the same level. Both examples are the same.

Again, for the last time, let me address this statement, word for word, from you plainly and simply:

"Any skilled fencer could do it to another less skilled fencer."

Yes, you are correct. Because the skilled fencer is faster.
 
Okay, I agree with the general idea, but the speed difference shown isn't indicative of the difference between Peak Human and Hypersonic+ speeds that Umberto and Fiora would have (as of right now). What I meant to say is that while it is a difference in tier, the overall numerical difference isn't that big. Fiora never moves that much faster in the duel.

Either way, this is a massive derail from the original topic regarding Jax and Fiora and whether she scales to him or not.
 
The difference in magnitude is likely comparable to a similar gap between Garen and the other no name Demacian knights during the statue pulling training. Somewhere around the difference between a multi-hundred tonner and a hundred tonner. Evidently, even those no name knights (plus the unnamed old instructor) are still far above peak human baselines, so the actual difference between Demacian champions and knights might not be that massively big (the implied strength of those hundred-tonner knights is closer to Tier 8 than Tier 9) even if they are just enough to constitute tier differences. Umberto was also a Demacian nobility of the warrior class so he may not be an exception to that superhuman baseline either.

I have left my computer a moment ago and won't be able to use it until tomorrow. See you then.
 
Considering the connection is now canon according to the devs, this should be fine to add

There's actually a bunch of skin likes that need a bit of updating
 
Zoe and Bard also confirms the multiverse. Both of them have statements and feats of going to different universes.
 
Zoe, Bard, Kindred, Ekko, Pulsefire, and all the other parallel universes all support 2-B via feats and statements
 
I don't see the point of having profiles with little to no substance. Make a blog/note it in the verse page, but right now there's not much so I don't see why we should.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Shiedaisthepeak
''I have chosen you. You will serve me!...'' League of legends kayn hax upgrade
Replies
11
Views
453
Shiedaisthepeak
Shiedaisthepeak
Omnificence
  • Locked
Super Revision Bros (4-A proposals, Grand Star key, and two calculations)
2 3 4
Replies
148
Views
10K
Armorchompy
Armorchompy
StoneKillerz12
Star Wars Cosmology Revision (Part 1 of 4: Legends Cosmology Overview)
Replies
14
Views
2K
Hasty12345
Hasty12345
VeryGoofyToddler2
  • Locked
DC/Vertigo Cosmology Redo(Part 1 of 2)
9 10 11
Replies
428
Views
44K
Antvasima
Antvasima
REX9097
  • Locked
Ben 10 Aliens Upgrades
2 3 4
Replies
159
Views
8K
Firestorm808
Firestorm808
Back
Top