Polar Opposites at Plot Manipulation dunk each other (Monika vs Arale)

[Ss3micah]

The official page considering Broadway force's exact nature unknown doesn't mean there aren't valid interpretations, such as the possible ones it lists. I didn't claim that it's inherently mind manipulation; like I wrote before, sometimes it's akin to body puppetry without the mental manipulation, since sometimes we see characters affected by Broadway force confused as to why they're dancing.

You're underestimating what the "script" is that Monika is unaffected by. If you call a reliable staff member for input about this matter, they would write something like that it depends on the nature of the plot manipulation, which means I'm correct. If they would write that you're correct because a resistance to plot manipulation doesn't necessarily mean a resistance to Broadway force or mind manipulation, then they didn't look deep enough into what the resistance to plot manipulation is in this case.

Is it on a conceptual level and cosmological informational level though? It being layered on a narrative level doesn't mean it covers all the requirements for killing Monika. I'm pretty sure this is the only reason this matchup isn't a stomp in Arale's favor.

It's because of how the script works in the Doki Doki Literature Club world. Can you please not continuously multiply the amount of sections I need to reiterate this in? We're already discussing this in other sections.

I'm not writing what you think I am. My entire point is that social influencing is not supernatural, in fact. If it's an illogical ability for Arale, making it supernatural, then it's more than just social influencing. In the case that it's not supernatural and just social influencing, which is what I was thinking of it as, I wrote that characters are capable of disregarding social influencing if they have the right mindset to do so. Your answer completely ignored that, plus it ignored me describing Monika's outlook in relation to other characters. Monika wouldn't be affected by Sally Acorn's social influencing, but that's not simply because she could just say no, it's because she has the right mindset to simply say no, and would know that anything Sally would say is just her following the script of something greater than her, which Monika thinks is depressing. Monika would take someone seriously if they are "real" to the standards that she is fictional. Also, don't misinterpret this as me claiming that a character being fourth wall aware gives them a resistance to social influencing; I'm writing that Monika in particular would behave this way because of the outlook she has demonstrated.

On the topic of a character needing feats, a character doesn't need to be against an opponent to demonstrate a mindset that could potentially be used against one. When information is stated, it can be used as evidence, especially when it's clear. As a simple comparison, if a professional fighter character is stated to never give in to temptation in battle, but has never demonstrated this due to none of their opponents trying such a tactic, we can still infer that if the character were to be up against an opponent manipulatively offering a gift as social influencing, which has been shown to pacify random street goons or something lesser than the professional fighter character, the professional fighter character wouldn't abandon their sentiment just because they lack feats of directly denying the social influencing of opponents.

I should point out that Standard Battle Assumptions state that the combatants view each other as enemies in a battle, so don't write that Monika isn't hostile by default. The combatants wouldn't be discovering that they're enemies, they'd be going at each other as soon as the battle starts.

I've already explained how Monika's acausality type 4 can be deduced to apply to her mind, which in turn makes it apply to her abilities.

I am using feats. Like I wrote in a previous section, you're underestimating what it means for Monika to be unbounded by the script of the Doki Doki Literature Club world. I've explained it in previous messages, so I recommend that you retrospect my messages. My analogy still holds up regardless of what you wrote. If a character has a resistance to mind manipulation in a way that would suggest a resistance to morality manipulation, a fictional work doesn't have to spoon-feed you information and explicitly state that a resistance to morality manipulation also falls under that resistance for it to be true. Likewise, if a character has a resistance to plot manipulation which was used to control the beliefs and behaviors of characters, a fictional work doesn't have to spoon-feed you information and explicitly state that a resistance to other similar abilities also fall under that resistance for it to be true.

Nuance is certainly something typically allowed here. Many abilities featured on the VS Battles Wiki fundamentally have nuance as a result of them having no real life concept to be compared to or them having extremely vast applications.

What I wrote about your first dare to call staff for clarification in a previous section also applies to this one.

I saw the thread, and you only included my claim, without the justification, so no one needed to think outside the box. Perhaps, having irregular causality technically doesn't inherently come with being beyond time, but it's extremely rare to find a character who doesn't have that context. Like I expect from most characters, the acausality type 4 that applies to Monika does have the context of being beyond time, and not just because of beyond-dimensional existence, but because of being beyond the script of the DDLC world which is also being beyond its time (regardless of if it's deleted or not). (Hopefully you recognize that this is another instance of you underestimating what it means to be beyond the script.) It indeed doesn't apply to her physique, but I've explained how it can be deduced that it applies to her mind. Monika doesn't need to physically move to use her abilities.

Alright

All this long mega-barrage of text is not going anywhere (plus it's exhausting and makes things infinitely more complicated)
Lets get back to basics shall we
I'm gonna ask for you simply questions and let's see what responses you have for me......

1. Can Human Monika resist Time Stop despite it clearly not being a resistance applicable to her profile and if so then why?
2. Can Human Monika resist Supernatural/Illogical Social Influencing that works against both those with Benevolent and Malevolent intent and if so then why?
3. Can Human Monika resist Broadway Force when Monika's Plot Manipulation never mentions or implies Broadway Force and if so then why?
4. Does Acausal 4 apply to Monika's human mind and if so then how?

Just a short simple response is all that's required

 

[StrymULTRA]

Can Human Monika resist Time Stop despite it clearly not being a resistance applicable to her profile and if so then why?

Just saying here that she can, because moving in a timeless void is more impressive than generally moving in stopped time, as time does still exist, but just frozen, but with lacking time, there are straight up no "timeframes" to move at all.

Diavolo example doesn't work because Jojo is a weird case and users can move only in stopped/erased time only for the duration of their own time hax, otherwise they're affected like anything else. Diavolo is in the "resistance" state only within his Time Erasure, outside of it he has no resistance lol.

 

[Ss3micah]

You're underestimating what the "script" is that Monika is unaffected by. If you call a reliable staff member for input about this matter, they would write something like that it depends on the nature of the plot manipulation, which means I'm correct.

Yeah, they would tell you something similar to the notion of...... the plot of DDLC had to have stated, shown or even implied something akin to Broadway Force. Is nth akin to Broadway Force is present in the plot of DDLC then stating that because Monika is able to break the Script of world means she can resist Broadway force is an unsupported claim. Her plot resistance will only act as that PLOT resistance and nth more because their are no INCLINATIONS to Broadway Force without a supporting evidence to state otherwise. Being free from the script of your own verse does not grant you resistance to mental powers and abilities NOT SHOWN nor DISPLAYED inside your own verse. To suggest Monika could resist abilities not seen in her own verse just because she's free from the script of the world is No Limits Fallacy because your given Monika resistance to things that dont exist inside her own verse.

That Btw, was the reply of a Staff Member Im familiar with

Is it on a conceptual level and cosmological informational level though? It being layered on a narrative level doesn't mean it covers all the requirements for killing Monika. I'm pretty sure this is the only reason this matchup isn't a stomp in Arale's favor.

I told Strym this and I will tell you. You use Plot Hax to resist Plot Hax. Monika's Plot Hax being mixed in with Concept Hax and Info Hax means nothing more than she now resist Concept Hax and Info Hax. You can't stack Concept and Info Resistance on to Plot Resistance and say......... I can now resist Layers of Plot Hax. Thats NLF. You need Plot Resistance to Resist Plot Hax and in Monika's case her Plot Resistance is Baseline while Arale's Hax is Layered so Arale will overpower Monika's resistance and affect her. Monika can conversely affect Arale with her own Plot Manipulation because her own Plot Manipulation operates at the conceptual and informational level with Concept and Info Hax being smth Arale doesn't resist thus she gets affected

Monika wouldn't be affected by Sally Acorn's social influencing, but that's not simply because she could just say no, it's because she has the right mindset to simply say no, and would know that anything Sally would say is just her following the script of something greater than her, which Monika thinks is depressing. Monika would take someone seriously if they are "real" to the standards that she is fictional. Also, don't misinterpret this as me claiming that a character being fourth wall aware gives them a resistance to social influencing; I'm writing that Monika in particular would behave this way because of the outlook she has demonstrated.

Monika has never encountered nor resisted Social Influencing before
But now..... without any feats of resistance
Your gonna claim that Monika could resist Sally's Social Influencing
By Virtue of having the right mindset and knowing the script and being free from it?
Thus she can resist an ability she has no resistance to.....
Sonic Fans would like to have a word with you

As a simple comparison, if a professional fighter character is stated to never give in to temptation in battle, but has never demonstrated this due to none of their opponents trying such a tactic, we can still infer that if the character were to be up against an opponent manipulatively offering a gift as social influencing, which has been shown to pacify random street goons or something lesser than the professional fighter character, the professional fighter character wouldn't abandon their sentiment just because they lack feats of directly denying the social influencing of opponents.

If I have a Social Influence that can make a serious AF Goku, Naruto or Luffy not want to fight anymore and become my friends
Then my feats of being able to affect those with resolve and determination like Goku's and Luffy's will overwhelm him

I should point out that Standard Battle Assumptions state that the combatants view each other as enemies in a battle, so don't write that Monika isn't hostile by default. The combatants wouldn't be discovering that they're enemies, they'd be going at each other as soon as the battle starts.

There still IC

I've already explained how Monika's acausality type 4 can be deduced to apply to her mind, and how it applies to her abilities.

This has to be the most newest piece of unusable argument I have ever heard and which still btw..... cant be used.
Monika retaining her human mind after becoming NEP does not make her Human Mind NEP nor Acausal 4 in anyway


And being able to use her human abilities as an Acausal 4/NEP entity doesn’t mean she an NEP mind or Acausal 4 mind either

Where did you even get this idea?

Nuance is certainly something typically allowed here. Many abilities featured on the VS Battles Wiki fundamentally have nuance as a result of them having no real life concept to be compared to or them having extremely vast applications.

We dont accept Nuance by itself as Fact

I saw the thread, and you only included my claim, without the justification, so no one needed to think outside the box. Perhaps, having irregular causality technically doesn't inherently come with being beyond time, but it's extremely rare to find a character who doesn't have that context. Like I expect from most characters, the acausality type 4 that applies to Monika does have the context of being beyond time, and not just because of beyond-dimensional existence, but because of being beyond the script of the DDLC world which is also being beyond its time (regardless of if it's deleted or not). (Hopefully you recognize that this is another instance of you underestimating what it means to be beyond the script.) It indeed doesn't apply to her physique, but I've explained how it can be deduced that it applies to her mind.

Where was it stated in DDLC that Monika is beyond time?

 

[Ss3micah]

Just saying here that she can, because moving in a timeless void is more impressive than generally moving in stopped time, as time does still exist, but just frozen, but with lacking time, there are straight up no "timeframes" to move at all.

Moving in Timeless Voids is not impressive and GRANTS NOTHING
If a character can move in a Timeless Void it means literally nth
It grants no speed rating nor does it grant time stop resistance

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Alright

All this long mega-barrage of text is not going anywhere (plus it's exhausting and makes things infinitely more complicated)
Lets get back to basics shall we
I'm gonna ask for you simply questions and let's see what responses you have for me......

Indeed, but why did you also proceed to answer all the other points anyway in a separate message? I'm going to ignore it, and only focus on the short points you made here, because very long messages get annoying after a while.

1. Can Human Monika resist Time Stop despite it clearly not being a resistance applicable to her profile and if so then why?

It's not a resistance to time stop. See the fourth answer of this message.

2. Can Human Monika resist Supernatural/Illogical Social Influencing that works against both those with Benevolent and Malevolent intent and if so then why?

If it's truly supernatural, then it's more than social influencing, so see the third answer of this message.

If it's just natural social influencing, then Arale successfully using it against benevolent and malevolent characters isn't enough for it to work against Monika, because Monika's mindset is that fictional characters who are at the same level of fiction as her are just bound the scripted events and such, so she sees the actions of other characters as fake and unnatural. For Monika to take Arale's social influencing seriously, Arale would need to tell her that she's friends with Tori-bot or something like that.

3. Can Human Monika resist Broadway Force when Monika's Plot Manipulation never mentions or implies Broadway Force and if so then why?

As we've established, Monika's resistance to plot manipulation is that she "managed to break out of the script of the game via her knowledge of the fourth wall". What you haven't recognized is that the "script" of the Doki Doki Literature Club world controls the entire nature of that world, most importantly in ways that are relevant to the plot that's going on with the Literature Club. The script hinders characters from being capable of gaining a consciousness about the fact that they're video game characters with predetermined behavior aside from the player's influence, and hinders characters from denying those predetermined behaviors. Monika is not only aware of how the script works in this way, but she outright defied her role in the story that she would have been forced to play if she didn't have a resistance to plot manipulation, which would have included her being forced to genuinely believe that she is a real person in a non-simulated universe. So, her resistance to plot manipulation can also be described as a resistance to being forced to behave in a certain way and believe a certain truth. Broadway force is the ability of "spontaneously breaking into song and dance, causing everyone and everything around them to became bound by it, and compelled to join in". Monika breaks out of being magically forced to believe in behaving a certain way, since she isn't bound to the DDLC script.

4. Does Acausal 4 apply to Monika's human mind and if so then how?

I think it does. When Monika is nonexistent/incorporeal, she doesn't have a brain nor any body parts, yet she can still talk and use abilities, so it can be deduced that she has a consciousness that isn't bound to her physical body. Her ability to access the command-line interface, which is the black text box at the top left of the screen that she used for some reality warping purposes, works the same way regardless of if her physical body is alive or not, and regardless of if the DDLC universe exists or not. Her nonexistent/incorporeal state has better acausality due to lacking a character file, but it seems that Monika's consciousness also doesn't necessarily need to be part of her physical body.

 

[Ss3micah]

Im gonna play a bit of Angel's and Devil's Advocate here

If it's just natural social influencing, then Arale successfully using it against benevolent and malevolent characters isn't enough for it to work against Monika, because Monika's mindset is that fictional characters who are at the same level of fiction as her are just bound the scripted events and such, so she sees the actions of other characters as fake and unnatural. For Monika to take Arale's social influencing seriously, Arale would need to tell her that she's friends with Tori-bot or something like that.

Devil's Advocate:
This here, is essentially giving Monika resistance to a power that has NEVER been displayed by anyone within the scope of her own verse, resistance to a Power Monika is NOT aware of due to it not existing in her own verse and resistance to a Power without FEATS to suggest she counteract it. How do we know Monika can effectively a character like Sally's social influencing? Just because she would know she's a fictional character and in her mind she's adhering to some script that Monika would know about? The idea has Merit but BY ITSELF it's not enough

Angel's Advocate:
Let's say your right and that Monika's mind set CAN resist Social Influencing just by Virtue 4th Wall Awareness letting her see the actions of other characters as fake and unnatural. Arale counters this because she also has 4th Wall Awareness that's cranked all the way up to 11 and could easily tell Monika that she knows she's a fictional character as well, point of stuff in the script given that Arale can casually read and know the entire script of the world or act incoherently from the script as she and other characters do multiple time. Monika Clairvoyance would instantly show her that Arale is not "Fake and Unnatural" and is in a sense just as "Real" as her given that Arale just like Monika can break the script of her own world and disregard the plot. So given both characters 4th wall Awareness and Plot Resistance counteracts each and places them on the EXACT same wavelength, Arale's social influencing would not be something Monika can dismiss as "a fake and unnatural action arale is doing because the script makes her do it" and would work on her because that's the only reason Monika has for resistance according to you and with that resistance gone she has nothing else.

If it's truly supernatural, then it's more than social influencing, so see the third answer of this message.
As we've established, Monika's resistance to plot manipulation is that she "managed to break out of the script of the game via her knowledge of the fourth wall". What you haven't recognized is that the "script" of the Doki Doki Literature Club world controls the entire nature of that world, most importantly in ways that are relevant to the plot that's going on with the Literature Club. The script hinders characters from being capable of gaining a consciousness about the fact that they're video game characters with predetermined behavior aside from the player's influence, and hinders characters from denying those predetermined behaviors. Monika is not only aware of how the script works in this way, but she outright defied her role in the story that she would have been forced to play if she didn't have a resistance to plot manipulation, which would have included her being forced to genuinely believe that she is a real person in a non-simulated universe. So, her resistance to plot manipulation can also be described as a resistance to being forced to behave in a certain way and believe a certain truth. Broadway force is the ability of "spontaneously breaking into song and dance, causing everyone and everything around them to became bound by it, and compelled to join in". Monika breaks out of being magically forced to believe in behaving a certain way, since she isn't bound to the DDLC script.

Devil's Advocate:
Okay I'll let you know that you are the first and only person on this entire site that has ever considered Monika's Plot Resistance to work in such an NFL way. Let me give you an example if what I mean. You say here that the script hinders characters from denying predetermined actions and behaviors and Monika can defy the script of her world and in doing so Monika's plot manipulation be described as a resistance to being forced to behave in a certain way and believe a certain truth. Alright
Here's what you seem to not get. Monika defying the plot of her own world is VALID and to say that she can use that Resistance to resist being forced to behave in certain ways and not take predetermined actions according to the script which is also VALID. What Staff will then tell you at that their is a LIMIT to what Monika can and cannot resist because of said Plot Manipulation and that limit is according to what is shown and displayed in Monika's OWN VERSE. Monika resisting commands and being forced to act a certain way and make predetermined actions is all within the confines of the Verse's Script hence why she resists Plot Manipulation. The "Script" is something she is aware of and can defy. BUT there is a limit. Allow me to demonstrate that.........

Charles Mind Manipulation. Charles has no 4th Wall Awareness nor any resistance to Plot Manipulation but has Mind Manipulation powers that can affect Cosmic, Celestial and Abstract Beings. Your argument here would be that because Monika's Plot Resistance can make it so that THE SCRIPT cannot sway her thought and actions AND because Monika sees Charles as a Fictional Character then she can resist Direct Mind Manipulation (EVEN THOUGH Mind Manipulation is NOT a power that Monika has ever encountered before neither has she resisted it before) because Charles' Mind Manipulation would cause her to think and act in ways she does not want and because Charles is bound by the script and she is not then she can resist Charles Hax because his Hax would be apart of the Script that she defies thus resisting his Mind Manipulation. Is that about right?

Amon Body Puppetry. Amon has no 4th Wall Awareness nor resistance to Plot Manipulation but has Body Puppetry that directly manipulates and controls the Blood of his opponents making them take any action he desires. Your argument here would be that because Monika's Plot Resistance can make it so that THE SCRIPT cannot sway her thought and actions AND because Monika sees Amon as a Fictional Character then she can resist Direct Body Puppetry (EVEN THOUGH Body Puppetry is NOT a power that Monika has ever encountered before neither has she resisted it before) because Amon's Body Puppetry would cause her to act in ways she does not want and because Amon is bound by the script and she is not then she can resist Amon's Hax because his Hax would be apart of the Script that she defies thus resisting his Body Puppetry. Is that about right?

Charles and Amon. Attacks on Monika's Mind and Attacks on her Body. Abilities that Monika has never faced within the scope of her own verse nor has feats of resisting. Your argument that Monika resists this is because she sees Charles and Amon as fictional characters following the script and she defies it and this because their hax are apart of the script they cant affect her.......... Is that about right?
If that's your argument here then the Staff here on VSB will tell you upfront your making NLF claims that is unsupported, unproven and cant be used.

Angel's Advocate:
But let's say your right and that she can resist that kind of stuff through Plot Resistance, she can make it that anything that would force her to think and act in ways she does not intend to think and act would not affect her....... This is a Moot Point to Arale anyways because again, Arale can Broadway Force characters who, Like Monika, has 4th wall awareness that allows her to perceive the world for the fiction it is and Monika for the fictional character she is and Arale can Broadway Force characters with both Broadway Force resistance AND Plot Resistance that makes them essentially unaffected by the Script. With that said, and with said what other reasons does Monika have that would prevent her from being Broadway force because having plot resistance wont save her and her 4th wall awareness wont help her either as Arale counteracts it with her own.

It's not a resistance to time stop. See the fourth answer of this message.
I think it does. When Monika is nonexistent/incorporeal, she doesn't have a brain nor any body parts, yet she can still talk and use abilities, so it can be deduced that she has a consciousness that isn't bound to her physical body. Her ability to access the command-line interface, which is the black text box at the top left of the screen that she used for some reality warping purposes, works the same way regardless of if her physical body is alive or not, and regardless of if the DDLC universe exists or not. Her nonexistent/incorporeal state has better acausality due to lacking a character file, but it seems that Monika's consciousness also doesn't necessarily need to be part of her physical body.

Devil's Advocate:
This is the most blatant form of genuine WTH I have ever witnessed. "When Monika is nonexistent/incorporeal, she doesn't have a brain nor any body parts, yet she can still talk and use abilities, so it can be deduced that she has a consciousness that isn't bound to her physical body". Yeah no shit sherlock. I mean pretty much every common ghost on the Wiki don't have a brain or any body parts either and can still talk and use abilities so I guess it can be deduced that their consciousness is not bound to a physical body as well. And where did you get consciousness is bound to the Physical Body? That is not a premise here. We don't push the narrative that a persons consciousness is bound to their physical body. That would completely contradict Low-Godly regen as those who have Low-Godly can regen from COMPLETE destruction of the physical body from their mind, soul and disembodied consciousness

Low-Godly: The ability to regenerate from the complete physical destruction of the user's body, instead restoring it from their disembodied consciousness, whether that be their soul, mind, some other nonphysical aspect of themself, esoteric or metaphysical energy, or something else.

If what you were saying were try and that a consciousness is bound to its body then complete destruction of the physical body should take out the consciousness as well as the consciousness should NOT be able to survive after the destruction of what it is BOUND to and thus make our Standards for Low Godly Regeneration a complete contradiction. Even simple animes like Dragon Ball, Naruto and Jojo or Cartoons like Tom and Jerry and Looney Toons should be able to tell you that the consciousness lives on even after complete destruction of the body..... unless you wanna make the argument that Souls are devoid of consciousness. Consciousness is NOT bound to the body given we all know it can survive complete destruction of the body....... instead it is bound to the mind and/or soul.

"Her ability to access the command-line interface, which is the black text box at the top left of the screen that she used for some reality warping purposes, works the same way regardless of if her physical body is alive or not, and regardless of if the DDLC universe exists or not."
This here literally says nothing. Monika being able to use her abilities in both human and NEP form does not prove in any degree that her Mind is Non-Existent nor that her Mind is Acausal 4. Acausal 4 btw is a STATE OF BEING lol not a STATE OF MIND.

Let me show you another example to bring forth how wrong you are....
Knuckles: at his final stage, he gains Abstract Existence and Higher Dimensional Existence due to becoming one with the Chaos Force which is basically Bigger than the Multiverse Itself. In this state he has all his previous abilities and his Mind commands the Entire Chaos Force and can use Chaos Control to Manipulate and Control the Fabric of space and time. The Ability, chaos control..... that Knuckles in his abstract state uses to control space and time is the same power he can use to the same effectiveness in his prior forms (Hyper Knuckles and Chaos Knucles) as well. DO YOU THINK THAT JUST BECAUSE ABSTACT KNUCKLES AND PRIOR FORMS OF KNUCKLES CAN USE THE SAME ABILITY TO THE SAME EFFECTIVENESS MEANS IN ANY REGARD THAT PRIOR FORMS OF KNUCLKES HAS AN ASTRACT OR HIGHER-DIMENSIONAL MIND? OF COURSE NOT. This is the FIRST time I have ever encountered an argument as ludicrous as this. Monika's NEP form having no physical body (obviously because she has NEP1) and being able to talk and use her abilities in her NEP form DOES NOT in anyway shape nor form means she has an Acausal 4 mind nor an NEP mind in Human Form. Acausal 4 and NEP are states of being that applies itself to the characters ENTIRE being not something that a character can get because "my NEP from has no body and I can use my abilities in my NEP form so my Human form must also have an NEP and Acausal 4 Mind since my Human Mind and NEP Mind is the same Mind". Like seriously? No one AND I MEAN NO ONE accepts this kind of logic in any regard. There isn't even a single character I can think of on this site that has an Acausal 4 mind just because another form of theirs has Acausal 4.
This is Ridiculously Bad Logic

Angel's Advocate:
Assuming that was even the case that Monika supposedly has an Acasual 4 mind how does that help? Acausal 4 DOES NOT resist Time Stop unless their is some in context statement or context that states specifically thats the case and in Monika's case she neither has the context and Time Stop resistance does not exist anywhere on her profile outside of BDE which is only useable in NEP form

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Devil's Advocate:
This here, is essentially giving Monika resistance to a power that has NEVER been displayed by anyone within the scope of her own verse, resistance to a Power Monika is NOT aware of due to it not existing in her own verse and resistance to a Power without FEATS to suggest she counteract it. How do we know Monika can effectively a character like Sally's social influencing? Just because she would know she's a fictional character and in her mind she's adhering to some script that Monika would know about? The idea has Merit but BY ITSELF it's not enough

Social influencing isn't a power. Having a resistance to it and being able to circumvent it are not the same. A fictional work has to have zero dialogue for social influencing to be beyond its scope.

I could stop at the previous three sentences, but I need to address this in a more detal, and in a serious and general way, because your idea has an issue beyond character debate. Your idea is essentially like asserting that someone who's depressed can just cheer up with simple pleasure, which is incorrect. Monika is a character who has existential personal conflict as a result of her divine knowledge. Her epiphany caused her to realize that the world she once viewed as real was a mere simulation, and aside from her attempts at spending time with the player, she was very sad. She even said that she would've decided to stop continuing to live if the player hadn't arrived. Wouldn't you feel miserable if life were a simulation and you realized that fact, and that your friends are robots with no free will, while you're objectively unique in a way no one could sensibly believe, aside from one person with a special connection to your special knowledge? If someone is suicidal based on their cosmic beliefs, unless they interact with their one and only savior who is directly relevant to those cosmic beliefs, then a random person can't simply change those feelings by being a quirky and charming new friend, who so happens to have feats of being able to pacify malevolent characters. I hope that you realized by now that what you've been writing is an example of some people being so fixated on feats of characters that they forget that characters aren't mere info sheets, and, when well-written, are accurate to humans feelings, because they were written by humans.

(Read the next section before answering this one.)

Angel's Advocate:
Let's say your right and that Monika's mind set CAN resist Social Influencing just by Virtue 4th Wall Awareness letting her see the actions of other characters as fake and unnatural. Arale counters this because she also has 4th Wall Awareness that's cranked all the way up to 11 and could easily tell Monika that she knows she's a fictional character as well, point of stuff in the script given that Arale can casually read and know the entire script of the world or act incoherently from the script as she and other characters do multiple time. Monika Clairvoyance would instantly show her that Arale is not "Fake and Unnatural" and is in a sense just as "Real" as her given that Arale just like Monika can break the script of her own world and disregard the plot. So given both characters 4th wall Awareness and Plot Resistance counteracts each and places them on the EXACT same wavelength, Arale's social influencing would not be something Monika can dismiss as "a fake and unnatural action arale is doing because the script makes her do it" and would work on her because that's the only reason Monika has for resistance according to you and with that resistance gone she has nothing else.

I very clearly wrote that I'm not describing that this is a matter of a virtue of being fourth wall aware. This is a matter of Monika's mindset that she in particular has demonstrated. Take into consideration what I wrote in the previous section, plus the fact that Arale is fourth wall aware for the purpose of being a gag character. These two combatants are surprisingly not on the same wavelength, for the most part. The potency of the fourth wall awareness isn't important when I'm referring to how the characters socially feel as a result of their awareness, because psychology doesn't have potencies in that sense. On the surface, the idea of Arale revealing to Monika that she's fourth wall aware seems like useful social influencing, but it actually either isn't or it wouldn't happen in a way that would be useful. Monika's clairvoyance isn't telepathy, and Arale wouldn't be striking up a friendly conversation about the fourth wall with Monika, she'd be fighting her as an enemy. Arale using her abilities for fighting as an enemy would already be revealing that she's fourth wall aware to Monika, but that wouldn't be trying to be on the same page as Monika on a personal level via their common knowledge of the fourth wall. Like I wrote, if Arale were to so happen to say the right things, like that she's friends with Tori-bot, then her social influencing could potentially be successful against Monika, but in a battle something like that is highly unlikely to be a topic.

Devil's Advocate:
Okay I'll let you know that you are the first and only person on this entire site that has ever considered Monika's Plot Resistance to work in such an NFL way. Let me give you an example if what I mean. You say here that the script hinders characters from denying predetermined actions and behaviors and Monika can defy the script of her world and in doing so Monika's plot manipulation be described as a resistance to being forced to behave in a certain way and believe a certain truth. Alright
Here's what you seem to not get. Monika defying the plot of her own world is VALID and to say that she can use that Resistance to resist being forced to behave in certain ways and not take predetermined actions according to the script which is also VALID. What Staff will then tell you at that their is a LIMIT to what Monika can and cannot resist because of said Plot Manipulation and that limit is according to what is shown and displayed in Monika's OWN VERSE. Monika resisting commands and being forced to act a certain way and make predetermined actions is all within the confines of the Verse's Script hence why she resists Plot Manipulation. The "Script" is something she is aware of and can defy. BUT there is a limit. Allow me to demonstrate that.........

It's not a fallacy. It's simple.
Step 1: We know that Monika resists the supernatural ability to be forced to behave a certain way.
Step 2: We acknowledge that Broadway force is a supernatural ability involving forcing a character to behave a certain way.
Step 3: The deduction is made that Monika could resist Broadway force as long as the potency isn't higher than her resistance.
Just because the resistance lists "Plot Manipulation" instead of "Broadway Force", doesn't mean the latter isn't part of the resistance, because Broadway force can be a subset of plot manipulation or many other abilities that can also be subsets of plot manipulation, which itself can also be a subset of other abilities, and so on. My claim is not that Monika resists literally every manipulative ability just because it can be part of the plot, it's that she can resist the ability of forcing behavior to the extent she showed to resist it, therefore I'm not assuming no limit.

Charles Mind Manipulation. Charles has no 4th Wall Awareness nor any resistance to Plot Manipulation but has Mind Manipulation powers that can affect Cosmic, Celestial and Abstract Beings. Your argument here would be that because Monika's Plot Resistance can make it so that THE SCRIPT cannot sway her thought and actions AND because Monika sees Charles as a Fictional Character then she can resist Direct Mind Manipulation (EVEN THOUGH Mind Manipulation is NOT a power that Monika has ever encountered before neither has she resisted it before) because Charles' Mind Manipulation would cause her to think and act in ways she does not want and because Charles is bound by the script and she is not then she can resist Charles Hax because his Hax would be apart of the Script that she defies thus resisting his Mind Manipulation. Is that about right?

Amon Body Puppetry. Amon has no 4th Wall Awareness nor resistance to Plot Manipulation but has Body Puppetry that directly manipulates and controls the Blood of his opponents making them take any action he desires. Your argument here would be that because Monika's Plot Resistance can make it so that THE SCRIPT cannot sway her thought and actions AND because Monika sees Amon as a Fictional Character then she can resist Direct Body Puppetry (EVEN THOUGH Body Puppetry is NOT a power that Monika has ever encountered before neither has she resisted it before) because Amon's Body Puppetry would cause her to act in ways she does not want and because Amon is bound by the script and she is not then she can resist Amon's Hax because his Hax would be apart of the Script that she defies thus resisting his Body Puppetry. Is that about right?

Charles and Amon. Attacks on Monika's Mind and Attacks on her Body. Abilities that Monika has never faced within the scope of her own verse nor has feats of resisting. Your argument that Monika resists this is because she sees Charles and Amon as fictional characters following the script and she defies it and this because their hax are apart of the script they cant affect her.......... Is that about right?
If that's your argument here then the Staff here on VSB will tell you upfront your making NLF claims that is unsupported, unproven and cant be used.

If you mean type 1 abstract existence, that the character exists purely as an abstraction and not an embodiment of one, then Charles being able to control one seems to be beyond the extent of Monika's resistance to behavior being forced, so she would get affected by that. It doesn't matter if Charles doesn't break the fourth wall while doing so, since I don't recall the DDLC script being beyond abstractions.

I already told you that body puppetry might work on Monika, because the ability has to do with physically moving a character a lot of the time. For Amon in particular, I don't even need to read beyond "has Body Puppetry that directly manipulates and controls the Blood of his opponents", because that already means it would work against Monika. It affects her biology in a way that she can't resist, because physically she's just a normal human.

Angel's Advocate:
But let's say your right and that she can resist that kind of stuff through Plot Resistance, she can make it that anything that would force her to think and act in ways she does not intend to think and act would not affect her....... This is a Moot Point to Arale anyways because again, Arale can Broadway Force characters who, Like Monika, has 4th wall awareness that allows her to perceive the world for the fiction it is and Monika for the fictional character she is and Arale can Broadway Force characters with both Broadway Force resistance AND Plot Resistance that makes them essentially unaffected by the Script. With that said, and with said what other reasons does Monika have that would prevent her from being Broadway force because having plot resistance wont save her and her 4th wall awareness wont help her either as Arale counteracts it with her own.

This answer has aspects of previous sections which I already addressed, so it should be skipped.

Devil's Advocate:
This is the most blatant form of genuine WTH I have ever witnessed. "When Monika is nonexistent/incorporeal, she doesn't have a brain nor any body parts, yet she can still talk and use abilities, so it can be deduced that she has a consciousness that isn't bound to her physical body". Yeah no shit sherlock. I mean pretty much every common ghost on the Wiki don't have a brain or any body parts either and can still talk and use abilities so I guess it can be deduced that their consciousness is not bound to a physical body as well. And where did you get consciousness is bound to the Physical Body? That is not a premise here. We don't push the narrative that a persons consciousness is bound to their physical body. That would completely contradict Low-Godly regen as those who have Low-Godly can regen from COMPLETE destruction of the physical body from their mind, soul and disembodied consciousness

Low-Godly: The ability to regenerate from the complete physical destruction of the user's body, instead restoring it from their disembodied consciousness, whether that be their soul, mind, some other nonphysical aspect of themself, esoteric or metaphysical energy, or something else.

If what you were saying were try and that a consciousness is bound to its body then complete destruction of the physical body should take out the consciousness as well as the consciousness should NOT be able to survive after the destruction of what it is BOUND to and thus make our Standards for Low Godly Regeneration a complete contradiction. Even simple animes like Dragon Ball, Naruto and Jojo or Cartoons like Tom and Jerry and Looney Toons should be able to tell you that the consciousness lives on even after complete destruction of the body..... unless you wanna make the argument that Souls are devoid of consciousness. Consciousness is NOT bound to the body given we all know it can survive complete destruction of the body....... instead it is bound to the mind and/or soul.

"Her ability to access the command-line interface, which is the black text box at the top left of the screen that she used for some reality warping purposes, works the same way regardless of if her physical body is alive or not, and regardless of if the DDLC universe exists or not."
This here literally says nothing. Monika being able to use her abilities in both human and NEP form does not prove in any degree that her Mind is Non-Existent nor that her Mind is Acausal 4. Acausal 4 btw is a STATE OF BEING lol not a STATE OF MIND.

If that's the case, then my point should be even more intuitive. Now that you established what you wrote here, my point can be described in an even simpler way than how I initially did. The case is that consciousness is non-physical, being sperate from a character's physiology, and Monika's consciousness can exist even without her character file, therefore it can be deduced that Monika's consciousness isn't bound to reality, time, causality, script and so on, for the same reason her nonexistent/incorporeal state is. So, if Monika gets time stopped or if her physical body dies, her consciousness would still be available, so she would still be able to use abilities regardless of the setback.

I didn't claim that acausality is a state of mind, if you mean it in the sense that it's an emotion or something like that. I'm referring to the state of being that Monika's consciousness is in. I was using "mind" and "consciousness" synonymously.

Let me show you another example to bring forth how wrong you are....
Knuckles: at his final stage, he gains Abstract Existence and Higher Dimensional Existence due to becoming one with the Chaos Force which is basically Bigger than the Multiverse Itself. In this state he has all his previous abilities and his Mind commands the Entire Chaos Force and can use Chaos Control to Manipulate and Control the Fabric of space and time. The Ability, chaos control..... that Knuckles in his abstract state uses to control space and time is the same power he can use to the same effectiveness in his prior forms (Hyper Knuckles and Chaos Knucles) as well. DO YOU THINK THAT JUST BECAUSE ABSTACT KNUCKLES AND PRIOR FORMS OF KNUCKLES CAN USE THE SAME ABILITY TO THE SAME EFFECTIVENESS MEANS IN ANY REGARD THAT PRIOR FORMS OF KNUCLKES HAS AN ASTRACT OR HIGHER-DIMENSIONAL MIND? OF COURSE NOT. This is the FIRST time I have ever encountered an argument as ludicrous as this. Monika's NEP form having no physical body (obviously because she has NEP1) and being able to talk and use her abilities in her NEP form DOES NOT in anyway shape nor form means she has an Acausal 4 mind nor an NEP mind in Human Form. Acausal 4 and NEP are states of being that applies itself to the characters ENTIRE being not something that a character can get because "my NEP from has no body and I can use my abilities in my NEP form so my Human form must also have an NEP and Acausal 4 Mind since my Human Mind and NEP Mind is the same Mind". Like seriously? No one AND I MEAN NO ONE accepts this kind of logic in any regard. There isn't even a single character I can think of on this site that has an Acausal 4 mind just because another form of theirs has Acausal 4.
This is Ridiculously Bad Logic

I know Sonic the Hedgehog, so I can explain this. What you're explaining is because Chaos Control is a technique that doesn't use the full power of the Chaos Force in most cases, and instead only draws energy from it. It'd be ridiculous to claim that Shadow's Chaos Spear is of the same potency as Super Genesis Wave or Chaos Knuckles' ability to command the Chaos Force when he became one with it, because this ignores very important context about the Chaos Force's role in the fictional work. Knuckles doesn't have the same context as Monika. Monika is naturally and directly involved with her abilities that come with her breaking the fourth wall, and she can do so in her base form, so it's not ridiculous to make the sensible connections that I'm making.

Angel's Advocate:
Assuming that was even the case that Monika supposedly has an Acasual 4 mind how does that help? Acausal 4 DOES NOT resist Time Stop unless their is some in context statement or context that states specifically thats the case and in Monika's case she neither has the context and Time Stop resistance does not exist anywhere on her profile outside of BDE which is only useable in NEP form

I already explained how there is context of this in previous messages. In this message, it's in the section before the Knuckles analogy.

 

[TheGreatBanana]

After carefully reading this thread over...and over...and over...again and again...seriously, i got a headache. I come to the conclusion that james argument are kinda dumb, no offence.
Firstly, What kind of mental 5-D gymnastics did you come up with to give monika resistance to an ability she doesn't have a resistance to. 'Monika is a characrer who-' Full stop there. Does she have Broadaway force/social influence or not? No amount of 'Her character is' or 'free from the script' are going to save her, simply because she lacks the resistance to. And what makes things worse, 'her character is' or 'Free from the script' applies to 99% of charcaters from Dr.slump, which arale did hax them. So no, Unless Monika has Resistance to arale's abilites, she gets haxed.

 

[Ss3micah]

@James_Plays_4_Games
Alright getting back to the MAIN Topic at hand here
Time Stop is still something Monika has no resistance nor answer for
Once that is used, Arale can BFR Monika outta Range and with no way to return that's a Win for Arale
Arale's Broadway force as established can work on both those who resist Broadway Force and Plot Hax so Monika ain't resisting that
And Social Influence works on Monika due to Supernatural/Illogical and Monika having no resistance to Social Influencing and Social Influencing works on characters that also resist Plot Hax so if you were gonna use that to protect Monika well that's Moot now

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

After carefully reading this thread over...and over...and over...again and again...seriously, i got a headache. I come to the conclusion that james argument are kinda dumb, no offence.
Firstly, What kind of mental 5-D gymnastics did you come up with to give monika resistance to an ability she doesn't have a resistance to. 'Monika is a characrer who-' Full stop there. Does she have Broadaway force/social influence or not? No amount of 'Her character is' or 'free from the script' are going to save her, simply because she lacks the resistance to. And what makes things worse, 'her character is' or 'Free from the script' applies to 99% of charcaters from Dr.slump, which arale did hax them. So no, Unless Monika has Resistance to arale's abilites, she gets haxed.

This is yet another misinterpretation of what social influencing is as a result of failure to properly understand what I'm describing. Social influencing isn't supernatural. Nothing I wrote claims that Monika can resist something supernatural just because of a social trait. The listing of "Resistance to Social Influencing" is something I have never seen on any VS Battles Wiki profile because social influencing is more of a skill and subset of intelligence. A character preventing themself from getting outsmarted by a genius isn't a "Resistance to Genius Intelligence", so I'm not treating social influencing as if that were the case either. Characters don't need a resistance to social influencing to circumvent it. The contrary is what's "dumb", or incredibly lacking in insightfulness. As a comparison example, if a creator god of a universe were matched up in a fight against a random civilian of Earth who so happens to be a expert at using skills with psychology and social influencing for their own benefit, your logic is that the god would get bamboozled because they don't have feats of social influencing "resistance". The god's feats about this are irrelevant when they're the origin of any tricks that humans have discovered. Context matters a lot.

Arale's social influencing could be more than just social influencing because it's regarded as an illogical ability, but that's not what I'm addressing by writing that Monika's character is a certain way. That's what I'm addressing when writing about how she'd do against Arale's Broadway force. Monika being "free from the script" means her being unaffected by a bunch of important stuff in the Doki Doki Literature Club universe that should equate to a resistance to Broadway force anyway, which I already explained in detail, and shouldn't have to elaborate on again. Also, you assume that being "free from the script" in Dr. Slump is the same as being "free from the script" in DDLC, when it's probably not. You're going to need to elaborate on that.

@James_Plays_4_Games
Alright getting back to the MAIN Topic at hand here
Time Stop is still something Monika has no resistance nor answer for

Not a resistance to it but an answer to it that I described. Not for her physical body, but for her consciousness, which is basically all that matters. Monika's abilities are non-physical and they're activated by her consciousness, so if her physical body can't move then it's not a major disadvantage.

Once that is used, Arale can BFR Monika outta Range and with no way to return that's a Win for Arale

I know. We already established that, regardless of if time stop would be useful. It's about time that you make your vote based on this.

Arale's Broadway force as established can work on both those who resist Broadway Force and Plot Hax so Monika ain't resisting that

The standards of those abilities need to be the same or better than DDLC's script that controls causality, character personality, cosmic information, et cetera, since not being bound to it is where Monika's resistance to plot manipulation comes from. Note that I have yet to deny that Arale's plot manipulation could work on Monika. I'm just mentioning that I don't think that the individual detail of her abilities being layered matters if that's not to indicate that they're better than 4D. (Currently it seems that tier 1 is no longer applied on Arale's profile.)

And Social Influence works on Monika due to Supernatural/Illogical and Monika having no resistance to Social Influencing [...]

About Arale's social influencing having supernatural abilities: See the previous point. About Monika having no "resistance" to social influencing: See the first section of this message that's directed to the other person.

[...] and Social Influencing works on characters that also resist Plot Hax so if you were gonna use that to protect Monika well that's Moot now

Um, "protect"? That's not what I'm doing. I'm just explaining what I know. The entire purpose of me addressing social influencing and Broadway force separately is because I already know that a character having a resistance to the supernatural ability of forcing a behavior doesn't make the character resistant to the concept of socializing, especially since that's rarely ever a possible resistance in the first place. I understand trying to preemptively disprove a point that you expect someone to make, but you really shouldn't have expected me to write something like that if you've been paying attention to what I've been writing.

 

[Dragonite007]

Ss3micah arguments make more Sense to me.
Arale Fra

 

[TheGreatBanana]

Eh....? What? I can understand the part about social influence, i see where you are coming from, and lets all assume that Monika isn't getting social influenced, and ignore arale's feats of social influencing people that are aware that they are fictional, people that were hostile to her, causing people to scram in fear or madness, or social influencing the creator etc.... Let's ignore all that, and assume monika reists and doesn't get social influenced. What I'm more baffled about is the asinine reasoing for resisting Broadaway...why on earth resistance to plot manip, aka "Free from the script" equates to resisting Broadaway force because "she's free from the plot, thus she can resist abilites that force her to do things." ...it doesn't work like that. Because they're multiple ways you can force someone to do something, and you need specific resistance to resist such ways. Thats like saying "Well this character resists mind manip that forced him to jump, thus he should resist body puppetry because both force people to act a certain way." Thats just...dumb. And, for the sake of arguing, lets assume such reasoing is solid. Monika's "free from the script" is...frail, compared to dr.slump characters, since most of the main character resist layered plot manip, such as existing before, after and when the plot is destroyed, resisting whenever someone tries to control them with plot, they regularly ignore plot etc...which arale can very much hax. So no, unless Monika's "Free from the plot" is layered, she's getting haxed. And you are correct, Arale's "free from the script" isn't like monika's. It's better.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Eh....? What? I can understand the part about social influence, i see where you are coming from, and lets all assume that Monika isn't getting social influenced, and ignore arale's feats of social influencing people that are aware that they are fictional, people that were hostile to her, causing people to scram in fear or madness, or social influencing the creator etc.... Let's ignore all that, and assume monika reists and doesn't get social influenced.

Monika avoiding being socially influenced has nothing to do with the potency of fourth wall awareness, it has to do with the mindsets of the characters as a result of their awareness. In that sense of potency, it doesn't apply to natural mindsets and real psychology. Arale's fourth wall awareness is just for her being a gag character while Monika's is far more serious and tragic, which led her to have worldviews that would make her not care about a lot of kinds of social influencing. Note that this doesn't matter since Arale's social influencing is more than just that, and is considered an illogical ability. The next section is what matters.

What I'm more baffled about is the asinine reasoing for resisting Broadaway...why on earth resistance to plot manip, aka "Free from the script" equates to resisting Broadaway force because "she's free from the plot, thus she can resist abilites that force her to do things." ...it doesn't work like that. Because they're multiple ways you can force someone to do something, and you need specific resistance to resist such ways. Thats like saying "Well this character resists mind manip that forced him to jump, thus he should resist body puppetry because both force people to act a certain way." Thats just...dumb. And, for the sake of arguing, lets assume such reasoing is solid. Monika's "free from the script" is...frail, compared to dr.slump characters, since most of the main character resist layered plot manip, such as existing before, after and when the plot is destroyed, resisting whenever someone tries to control them with plot, they regularly ignore plot etc...which arale can very much hax. So no, unless Monika's "Free from the plot" is layered, she's getting haxed. And you are correct, Arale's "free from the script" isn't like monika's. It's better.

Your answer still isn't accurate to what I'm trying to convey, so I'll have to explain it with even more detail to hopefully get the point across this time.

Monika can break out of the script of the Doki Doki Literature Club universe, which, as we know, is a resistance to plot manipulation. Plot manipulation can have a lot of nuance, because a lot can be part of a plot and directly involved with the manipulation, although this is not necessarily the case. This nuance is present in the particular case of the plot manipulation Monika resists though, since the script of DDLC is responsible for controlling that universe's timeline of events and character behavior. It should be noted that the DDLC universe is entirely deterministic aside from the player's choices and breaking the fourth wall. The reason Monika was able to use empathic manipulation on Sayori and Yuri is because she edited them to amplify their negative traits, because the programming of the game perpetually dictated what kind of characters they would be, meaning they as individuals didn't have any free will, which Monika herself said was the case. Logic dictates that, if Monika didn't have a resistance to plot manipulation, then regardless of her abilities, she would've been forced to believe and behave as the "class star" character giving literature advice and social advice to the player until the game would've ended probably without horror. Monika being able to break out of the game's script means she is capable of resisting a cosmic and metafictional force that was forcing her to believe a certain truth and genuinely behave in a certain way. That resistance outclasses a resistance to Broadway force in the same way that a resistance to transmutation outclasses a resistance to petrification; one resistance is way better than the other, and are similar to each other, regardless of how the two aren't always thematically connected.

So, Monika would resist Broadway force, because it's the supernatural ability to force a behavior, and that exact idea of an ability is one that Monika has been shown to resist on a cosmic scale. What's important is whether or not Arale's abilities are of good enough potency. They may be layered, but behavioral manipulation is far from the only effect that the DDLC script has that Monika resisted, so be careful when thinking about this. I haven't determined the answer, by the way, so I have yet to make a stance about it.

 

[Ss3micah]

That's what I'm addressing when writing about how she'd do against Arale's Broadway force. Monika being "free from the script" means her being unaffected by a bunch of important stuff in the Doki Doki Literature Club universe that should equate to a resistance to Broadway force anyway

Let me ask you a question here....
Just one....
Can you give me ONE instance, just one, of anything explicitly being Broadway Force or even REMOTELY IMPLIED to being Broadway Force?

If not, then the Ability of Broadway force does not REMOTELY exist within DDLC Universe.
And if that is the case..... then to claim that Monika can resist Broadway Force via Equating it to "Important stuff in DDLC" that don't even revolve around nor mention nor imply Broadway Force is at least a Huge Stretch that can't be remotely supported and at most NLF in it's purest form

Everyone on this Wiki will agree with me on that

Also, you assume that being "free from the script" in Dr. Slump is the same as being "free from the script" in DDLC, when it's probably not. You're going to need to elaborate on that.

Just to give you a bit of elaboration of 3 things Dr. Slump characters can do as a result of being free from the Script. Im just painting a picture in your mind here so you can understand

1. They can completely ignore any given narrative. You can essentially straight up write what should happen in the plot and that includes each and every moment of what happens and what characters should be doing and they will completely ignore what is written and do things contradictory to what is written in the plot
2. They can straight up appear within the narrative even if they are not scripted to be there. You can essentially make a script and have script NOT include certain characters and those characters will still end up appearing in the narrative simply because they want to even if you specifically scripted them out of it.
3. They can casually function after the script ends. You can write a script and then of course like all scripts they have a beginning and and end. Nothing is supposed to happen, occur or exist after the end. Dr. Slump characters however, even if the script ends they can straight up exist and function because the script ending cant force them to cease nor end with it.

Not a resistance to it but an answer to it that I described. Not for her physical body, but for her consciousness, which is basically all that matters. Monika's abilities are non-physical and they're activated by her consciousness, so if her physical body can't move then it's not a major disadvantage.

Okay let me tell you this from now and what I tell you now everyone one on this site will tell you
Unless there are clear feats, Consciousness cannot function within Stopped Time. Just like the Body..... the Consciousness is Stopped as well
There is a reason why, other than Jotaro, none of the Stardust Crusader's could see DIO in stopped time.
If what you were saying were the norm and that a character's consciousness is not affected by time stop..... then they would be able to see DIO as well

Now ignoring that and getting SPECIFICALLY to Monika
Monika even as a NEP being does not resist time stop outside of BDE. Again Acausal 4 does not grant resistance to Time Stop and functioning in an area where time does not exist does not grant Time Stop Resistance either. Human Monika and NEP Monika "having the same consciousness" does Nothing here. It's the STATE OF BEING that matters. Even if they have the same consciousness or utilize the same abilities through their Consciousness, you cannot apply properties from on state of being to another. Acausal 4 is a state of being indicative of NEP Monika. NONE of Acausal 4's properties can be attributed to Human Monika in any way, shape nor form. The same for NEP and BDE. These states and ALL of there properties are attached to NEP Monika's STATE OF BEING. These properties are NOT attached to Human Monika in anyway because she does not share the same state of being.

Let me give you another taste of how moronic this is
Ragna in his Final Key has Nonexistent Physiology Aspect Type 3. You know aspect 3 means? It means there mind is nonexistent. So beginning of series Ragna and True BlazBlue Ragna have the exact same consciousness through and through and both use the same consciousness to use the same mental and Space-Time Warping powers. Does that now mean we can attribute True BlazBlue Ragna's Nonexistent Mind to his Beginning of series self and does that mean that Beginning of series Ragna also has a nonexistent mind since both Beginning of series Ragna and True Blazblue Ragna have the same consciousness?

Let me tell you right now that Theglassman12 is one of the Biggest supporters of BlazBlue and even he would look at this and ask what the actual #@$% am I talking about?
Literally no one.... NO ONE on the Wiki will ever agree that Monika in her Human Form has an Acausal 4 or NEP consciousness just because her NEP state does and I challenge you to find anyone who would even agree to such a claim.

The standards of those abilities need to be the same or better than DDLC's script that controls causality, character personality, cosmic information, et cetera, since not being bound to it is where Monika's resistance to plot manipulation comes from.

My friend let me give you a piece of Tidbit Information. UNLESS Acausal 4 is applied to HUMAN Monika...... being unbound by Causality is treated as 1 layer of resistance to Causality Hax. Anyone with 2 Layers or more Causality Hax will overpower Monika's Resistance with no issue. As of the writing of this message..... HUMAN Monika does not have Acausal 4.... so anyone with 2 Layers or more of Causality Hax will steamroll over her. That's EXACTLY how it works here.
The Same Case with Plot Resistance. 1 Layer of Plot Resistance vs Plot Hax with +2 Layers of Plot Manipulation and Monika get's steam rolled.

I'm just mentioning that I don't think that the individual detail of her abilities being layered matters if that's not to indicate that they're better than 4D.

Monika and Arale having 4-D Hax Potency is one thing
Layers are another.
Ask anyone on this Site. LITERALLY ANYONE
If character A has baseline (1 Layer) Resistance to a Hax and Character B uses the same Hax that Character A resists but up to +2 Layers, then Character A get's steam rolled. Both the hax and hax resistance being on the same dimensional potency level does not change this universally accepted fact

The entire purpose of me addressing social influencing and Broadway force separately is because I already know that a character having a resistance to the supernatural ability of forcing a behavior doesn't make the character resistant to the concept of socializing, especially since that's rarely ever a possible resistance in the first place. I understand trying to preemptively disprove a point that you expect someone to make, but you really shouldn't have expected me to write something like that if you've been paying attention to what I've been writing.

You realize how people commenting here are saying that between you and me..... I'm the one making more sense here?
Its because I know what the standards here are and what expectations are in place to be followed
The narrative your pushing for Monika is something that breaks standards in OH SO CONFUSING ways.
I can tell..... I can PROMISE you now that if any neutral party were to take an objective look at my points and your points they will tell you I'm making sense here.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Let me ask you a question here....
Just one....
Can you give me ONE instance, just one, of anything explicitly being Broadway Force or even REMOTELY IMPLIED to being Broadway Force?

If not, then the Ability of Broadway force does not REMOTELY exist within DDLC Universe.
And if that is the case..... then to claim that Monika can resist Broadway Force via Equating it to "Important stuff in DDLC" that don't even revolve around nor mention nor imply Broadway Force is at least a Huge Stretch that can't be remotely supported and at most NLF in it's purest form

Everyone on this Wiki will agree with me on that

That detail is irrelevant when I already explained how Monika resists the ability that Broadway force is. I don't need to prove that the ability to force behavior with the specific context of forcing dance exists in DDLC when I already showed that the ability exists in the context of forcing any every action that ever existed. A lot of fictional works don't explicitly make it dance, but that doesn't matter because dance is just one action that can be forced using abilities that are better than Broadway force that use the same element.

As an analogy: If you saw a character resist transmutation, would you behave this way in a versus thread where they're against an opponent who has petrification? "The character was never shown to resist being turned into stone specifically. The ability of petrification hasn't been shown to exist in that verse, so we have no evidence that the character's resistance to transmutation would work against petrification. That character resisted being turned into a frog by a potion, so it's not the same as an opponent turning them into stone by looking at them." This belief about transmutation compared to petrification is widely regarded as inaccurate.

Just to give you a bit of elaboration of 3 things Dr. Slump characters can do as a result of being free from the Script. Im just painting a picture in your mind here so you can understand

1. They can completely ignore any given narrative. You can essentially straight up write what should happen in the plot and that includes each and every moment of what happens and what characters should be doing and they will completely ignore what is written and do things contradictory to what is written in the plot
2. They can straight up appear within the narrative even if they are not scripted to be there. You can essentially make a script and have script NOT include certain characters and those characters will still end up appearing in the narrative simply because they want to even if you specifically scripted them out of it.
3. They can casually function after the script ends. You can write a script and then of course like all scripts they have a beginning and and end. Nothing is supposed to happen, occur or exist after the end. Dr. Slump characters however, even if the script ends they can straight up exist and function because the script ending cant force them to cease nor end with it.

Yeah, that looks like what Arale's profile conveys. You essentially listed three different ways Arale can resist plot manipulation. How does this compare to the standards of the script of DDLC though? Has it been clarified that the script contains all of the reality's causality?

Okay let me tell you this from now and what I tell you now everyone one on this site will tell you
Unless there are clear feats, Consciousness cannot function within Stopped Time. Just like the Body..... the Consciousness is Stopped as well
There is a reason why, other than Jotaro, none of the Stardust Crusader's could see DIO in stopped time.
If what you were saying were the norm and that a character's consciousness is not affected by time stop..... then they would be able to see DIO as well

Now ignoring that and getting SPECIFICALLY to Monika
Monika even as a NEP being does not resist time stop outside of BDE. Again Acausal 4 does not grant resistance to Time Stop and functioning in an area where time does not exist does not grant Time Stop Resistance either. Human Monika and NEP Monika "having the same consciousness" does Nothing here. It's the STATE OF BEING that matters. Even if they have the same consciousness or utilize the same abilities through their Consciousness, you cannot apply properties from on state of being to another. Acausal 4 is a state of being indicative of NEP Monika. NONE of Acausal 4's properties can be attributed to Human Monika in any way, shape nor form. The same for NEP and BDE. These states and ALL of there properties are attached to NEP Monika's STATE OF BEING. These properties are NOT attached to Human Monika in anyway because she does not share the same state of being.

Let me give you another taste of how moronic this is
Ragna in his Final Key has Nonexistent Physiology Aspect Type 3. You know aspect 3 means? It means there mind is nonexistent. So beginning of series Ragna and True BlazBlue Ragna have the exact same consciousness through and through and both use the same consciousness to use the same mental and Space-Time Warping powers. Does that now mean we can attribute True BlazBlue Ragna's Nonexistent Mind to his Beginning of series self and does that mean that Beginning of series Ragna also has a nonexistent mind since both Beginning of series Ragna and True Blazblue Ragna have the same consciousness?

Let me tell you right now that Theglassman12 is one of the Biggest supporters of BlazBlue and even he would look at this and ask what the actual #@$% am I talking about?
Literally no one.... NO ONE on the Wiki will ever agree that Monika in her Human Form has an Acausal 4 or NEP consciousness just because her NEP state does and I challenge you to find anyone who would even agree to such a claim.

In a previous message, you wrote that consciousness is completely separate from a character's biological brain's mind. If characters from other fictional works have their consciousness bound to their biology, then that just means they don't have evidence of having a disembodied consciousness. If they naturally have their consciousness bound to their biology but can have that changed because of specific circumstances, then they have that specific context. In Monika's case, her context is that she is capable of this by default. Monika in her normal state got fundamentally erased and her consciousness was unaffected. There was no fancy transformation as a result of specific circumstances; it was just outright her survivability demonstrated after being the target of existence erasure with a lot of hax.

I already stopped writing about whether or not Monika has a direct resistance to time stop many posts ago. You're the only one continuing to write about it.

As for acausality type 4, I already explained how Monika's case does have the specific context of being beyond time as a result of this, so her case is that it would let her think in stopped time if it applies to her consciousness. You continuously write that it doesn't default to being unbound to time, but we're already past that point in the discussion. By now I can claim that you're doing the argument from repetition fallacy. If you forgot what I answered and if you don't want to search for it, then just tell me so.

My friend let me give you a piece of Tidbit Information. UNLESS Acausal 4 is applied to HUMAN Monika...... being unbound by Causality is treated as 1 layer of resistance to Causality Hax. Anyone with 2 Layers or more Causality Hax will overpower Monika's Resistance with no issue. As of the writing of this message..... HUMAN Monika does not have Acausal 4.... so anyone with 2 Layers or more of Causality Hax will steamroll over her. That's EXACTLY how it works here.
The Same Case with Plot Resistance. 1 Layer of Plot Resistance vs Plot Hax with +2 Layers of Plot Manipulation and Monika get's steam rolled.

I wasn't writing about acasuality in what you quoted.

I could've phrased what I did write better though. To reiterate: Monika's resistance to plot manipulation is beyond baseline plot manipulation in the same way her own plot manipulation is. This isn't due to layers though. So, my recommendation is to be careful when thinking about how a different character could use their own plot manipulation against her.

Monika and Arale having 4-D Hax Potency is one thing
Layers are another.
Ask anyone on this Site. LITERALLY ANYONE
If character A has baseline (1 Layer) Resistance to a Hax and Character B uses the same Hax that Character A resists but up to +2 Layers, then Character A get's steam rolled. Both the hax and hax resistance being on the same dimensional potency level does not change this universally accepted fact

My definition of layered hax is that the potency of the hax has feats, in the same way that a character can have feats of attack potency. If this is incorrect, then this part of the discussion isn't what I could give effective insight to. Like I wrote, I haven't claimed that Arale couldn't succeed with this, just that I haven't figured out if she would or not.

You realize how people commenting here are saying that between you and me..... I'm the one making more sense here?
Its because I know what the standards here are and what expectations are in place to be followed
The narrative your pushing for Monika is something that breaks standards in OH SO CONFUSING ways.
I can tell..... I can PROMISE you now that if any neutral party were to take an objective look at my points and your points they will tell you I'm making sense here.

The others are writing that you make more sense because you're mistakenly portraying Monika's abilities as simpler than they really are, so the others are gravitating towards your ideas because simpler ideas are easier to comprehend, and her profile doesn't highlight all the details I'm describing for reading pleasure. Also, no, nothing I've written makes Monika's abilities break standards in "oh so confusing" ways. They could be considered complicated if you don't observe them carefully enough, so that's why I'm here trying to clarify what isn't clear-cut, but you've just ended up confusing yourself as a result of the denial of some factors.

I am a neutral party, so I guess you broke the promise you just made. I hope you realize that my intention was to post a few simple messages explaining how Monika's abilities work, not expecting someone to adamantly write counter-arguments misrepresenting how some factors work. What impact this has on which character wins the thread's matchup is of little to no importance to me.

 

[Dragonite007]

Ss3micah still making more sense

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Ss3micah still making more sense

...in the case that making more sense is denying information that's on Monika's profile just because it's not presented in an unmistakable fashion. Look, below I'll write one of my points in a way that should make the fact very evident.

Monika controls the script of DDLC as most of her plot manipulation, and a part of that script, aside from preventing the characters from having free will by controlling causality, is what controls the personalities of the characters. As shown on her profile where "Mind Manipulation" is listed in her Powers and Abilities section, and elaborated on in the "Script" section of her Notable Attacks/Techniques section, Monika has the ability of mind manipulation because she can directly manipulate this aspect of her reality that controls the behavior and nature of characters. Monika resists that same plot manipulation, because she was able to be free of that same script's control, therefore, even though her profile doesn't list it, she should also have a resistance to this kind of direct control of behavior (that is deemed as mind manipulation). Broadway force is the same kind of direct control of behavior often by being a subset of mind manipulation, and is just a specific version of the force that Monika has shown to resist, therefore the idea that Monika could resist that ability is sensical.

Ss3micah continuously denies how Monika's resistance works this way by claiming that she can only have a resistance to Broadway force if her resistance was explicitly to Broadway force, as in, the resistance to the ability needs to be in the specific context of forcing dance. This is wrong, because when a character resists an ability that's greater compared to abilities that are subsets, the character is assumed to resist those abilities that are subsets.

 

[Dragonite007]

Ss3micah continuously denies how Monika's resistance works this way by claiming that she can only have a resistance to Broadway force if her resistance was explicitly to Broadway force, as in, the resistance to the ability needs to be in the specific context of forcing dance. This is wrong, because when a character resists an ability that's greater compared to abilities that are subsets, the character is assumed to resist those abilities that are subsets.

Lol, nop.

Or she has resistance or not. Resistance to plot is not saving you from Mind control, Brodwayforce, etc.
No matter how much you twist her arguments, she won't resist

Ss3micah still making more sense. Until a better argument appear, Arale FRA

 

[Braking]

I am NOT reading allat.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Or she has resistance or not. Resistance to plot is not saving you from Mind control, Brodwayforce, etc.
No matter how much you twist her arguments, she won't resist

Ss3micah still making more sense. Until a better argument appear, Arale FRA

Exactly like that other person, your answer ignores what I wrote because you're repeating the argument that I just answered. This is not called making sense.

 

[Dragonite007]

Exactly like that other person, your answer ignores what I wrote because you're repeating the argument that I just answered. This is not called making sense.

This is calling following what's on the profile. If you think Monika has resistance to this abilities, so make a CRT to add them

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

This is calling following what's on the profile. If you think Monika has resistance to this abilities, so make a CRT to add them

The dubious part is that I'm following what's on the profile too. So, clearly one side is wrong since the sides have opposite conclusion. I'm writing in detail about how aspects of DDLC work and how they relate to this battle matchup, while you and Ss3micah are only writing that my conclusion is wrong for reasons that I already addressed, so no matter what you personally think of my point, it has yet to be disproven. This doesn't even void your vote, since I already wrote that Arale has a likely win condition. You've got nothing to lose by being open-minded here.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Plot hax doesn't grant any kind of resistance. Feats and statements are required. That's how it works on here.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Plot hax doesn't grant any kind of resistance. Feats and statements are required. That's how it works on here.

Both characters have resistances with evidence on their profiles. I don't know who you're addressing, but I presume that everyone here already understands your point.

 

[Kirinator07]

As far as I know if stated directly, Plot can't interact with NEP of certain kinds.

 

[StrymULTRA]

As far as I know if stated directly, Plot can't interact with NEP of certain kinds.

Monika does not start with NEP.

 

[Kirinator07]

Monika does not start with NEP.

And I'm also pretty certain that Arale's plot hax isn't all passive, but so is Monika.

 

[Kirinator07]

Does Arale have any counter to type 2 concept hax?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Ss3micah Makes more sense. Arale FRA.

 

[Kirinator07]

Bump?

 

[Kirinator07]

Bump

 

[Kirinator07]

Bump

 

[Kirinator07]

2-B plot manipulation is self-explanatory

 

[StrymULTRA]

Necro

 

[Kirinator07]

Doesn't matter, This match is already a stomp once 2-B plot manipulation is in the mix.

 

[StrymULTRA]

You know that's just range, right?

Besides I'll ask for closure.