Pokemon's Causality Manipulation

[Reppuzan]

So Celebi apparently has Causality Manipulation listed on its page for "Creating a causality loop and summoning alternate Celebi from dying."

There are a bunch of holes in this.

Firstly, while I can buy Celebi's ability to create a Time Loop, a time loop is not equal to a causality loop, which ties together cause and effect to achieve a result. I don't recall any instance of Celebi using a causality loop in any scene of the movies it appears in.

Second, the scene where dozens of other Celebi come to revive the movie's Celebi disregards one key fact: there is more than one Celebi. As shown in the movie series that this feat was taken from, a different Celebi appeared in Zoroark: Master of Illusio, and Bulbapedia (which does extremely extensive research on the subject) states that "many other Celebi from past and future came to heal their friend." in the scene this logic is taken from. Thus I don't believe it was summoning its alternate selves at all.

Third, Giratina's justification for this is "Whatever it does in the Distortion World, is reflected in the Pokemon World". This is a voodoo doll ability, not the manipulating of cause and effect.

Thus I don't think any of these Pokemon, Arceus included, should have Causality Manipulation unless there are feats I don't know about.

 

[Reppuzan]

Bump.

 

[Cropfist]

I agree with this.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

For the moment, I agree. I'm researching the Creation Trio right now and I may find evidence for Casuality Manipulation, but unless those more learned than I in these things make a great case for the stuff in the OP being equivalent to casuality manipulation, I think it should be removed for now.

Oh, and this most certainly needs to be highlighted.

 

[Promestein]

Agreed.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I think I may know another feat from Celebi that could be casuality manipulation.

Like Orihime's Soten Kishun shields, wouldnt Celebi using the power of the Time Ripple to reverse the damages on Zoroark and preventing it from dying count as Casuality Manipulation? And the time ripple is a hole in space-time that is purely time energy IIRC.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Professor

There's no indication that it was rejecting fate rather than simply reversing time through Time Manipulation. Zeref did the exact same thing.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Reversing the dimension? Wait what do you mean?

 

[Reppuzan]

@Kukui

My bad, I meant time. I'm split between doing this and working on my final projects, so sorry if I type incoherently.

 

[SomebodyData]

Hmmm, gonna have to agree with the op

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

But it actually wasnt time manipulation it was rather something else.

When Zoroark was on the ground near death, Celebi flew into the time ripple to absorb a large amount of the time energy it was admitting for it being a special hole in space-time. After it absorbed the energy, it came right back out to touch Zoroark and admitted some of that energy onto it, saving Zoroarks life and having it rise again as if it was never damaged in the first place.

And before anyone says it, it can't be normal healing because the time ripple is specifically just time energy and nothing else. If normal healing could do the trick Celebi wouldnt have had to resort to using the power of the time ripple to save Zoroarks life. So it needing to use time energy to revive Zoroark should say something.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Kukui

The fact that Celebi was using time energy just reinforces the fact that it could have just as easily been time reversal. Healing them "as if it never happened" is something Time Manipulation can do.

 

[LordAizenSama]

I agree with repp also

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I also agree with reppuzan

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

But if it was time reversing we would have seen everyone affected by it not just zoroark. Unless it's a specific time reversal which nothing can prove it is.

 

[Promestein]

Causality manipulation is a bigger assumption than localized time manipulation

 

[Reppuzan]

@Kukui

Localized Time Manipulation is a thing. Zoom is able to speed up time relative to himself so that everything else is effectively slower than him, as does every Final Fantasy character with the Haste spell.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I don't see how. It's similar to Soten Kishun where it erases all of the damages to the point where they never even happened and we've never seen Celebi use localized time manipulation before the Zoroark movie ever to my knowledge. If it was that Celebi could use that to save itself rather then have to time jump to another timeline. If it was localized time reversal why didn't it just do that against The Pokemon Hunter from 4Ever to make him a baby? Or use it on itself to prevent it from dying?

Also Rep or anyone could you go more into detail about how more than one Celebi disproves that part of the post?

 

[Reppuzan]

@ProfessorKukui

If you're constantly going to bring up Bleach as an example, then I'll bring up another one.

Hachigen Ushoda's Space-Time Regression Barriers do the exact same thing as Orihime's. But, as the name implies, it's simply reversing space and time to revert a character's injuries back to how they were.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Kukui

Part of the logic behind the supposed Causality Manipulation is that Celebi summoned its alternate selves upon its death to revive it, which is false, since it's simply other Celebi coming to its aid and using their powers over time (note that cause and effect is never mentioned) to help restore it.

 

[LordAizenSama]

@Professor Kukui Its nothing like soten kisshun at all. The result is the same but the method is entirely different.

It's explicitly stated to not be "reversing the space" or time reversal but instead "event rejection"

It is also described as causal rejection

The difference in proof between celebi and orihime is insane. Not comparable at all

 

[LazyHunter]

I agree with Reppuzan. The justification for Giratina doesn't make much sense

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Just remove it already.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@LordAizen

To be fair here, Aizen is literally referring to Orihime's ability as the "time-space reversal" that Ulquiorra referred to as earlier, he admits it himself in the first part of the scan. He first says that her power rejects an event that happened to their subject back to its original state as if the subject was never effected and then refers to it as time-space reversing, which is exactly whats being argued here. If Orihimes power is like this, then Zoroarks injuiries to the point where it almost died being taken away or nullified as if he was never injured at all seems to be no different. In this scan he isnt even claiming both to be different from each other but comparable. The fact Hachigen's power is also greatly similar to hers and is directly stated as time-space reversal further supports Orihime's power to be the same thing as Rep pointed out above.

@Rep

With all due respect, that makes no sense. Yes there are different celebi in the verse but there is no evidence that it summons different celebi's instead of temporal versions of itself to aid it when in trouble. For one, there are only 2 different celebi in the verse. One from the 4Ever movie and one from the Zoroark movie. When summoning other celebi's there are at least dozens of them so if it were simply summoning other entirely different celebis the number would be much smaller. Furthermore IIRC, the celebis that come are specifically described as the "spirits of time" or something like that, meaning they would be celebis that once lived and would soon to be born in the future. In addition, the pokedex also states that a single celebi can exist simuntaneously throughout time so that would further suggest to be different versions of that single celebi to exist other than the present one.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Kukui

1) Firstly, you didn't even read the post. Aizen specifically stated that it was beyond mere Time Reversal or Spatial Reversal, it was event reversal, declaring it to be "Causal Rejection". Celebi controls time and was never stated to control anything else.

2) Secondly, who's to say that there aren't more Celebis in the future? The old lady explicitly referred to them as separate beings, and you're needlessly extrapolating to suit a certain viewpoint.

Regardless, calls for change are basically unanimous. So I'm doing it, sorry.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Uh, no. Aizen said that a human having a power so strong is possible. And the quotation marks means hes referring to what Ulquiorra saw earlier. Not that it is "space time reversal", im nlt sure why you are choosing to read it that way when Aizen literally states its causal rejection/event rejection.

Nothing celebi has done is enough proof for causality manipulation that's why everyone is agreeing with repp (barr you of course)