Pokemon Tier 1 Upgrade? (Distortion World range and Arceus)

[Everything12]

So I had cancer, that was fun and kept me busy. During that "free time" I spent looking up stuff on relativity and quantum mechanics for fun and that got me thinking on dimensions, as a Pokemon fan who started with Gen IV those thoughts turned into this.

Pokemon universes are composed of space (which consists of parallel universes and directions) and time, standard four dimensional universe model. These universes are infinite/infinitely expanding parallel to each other which is also classified as space in Pokemon, standard multiverse based off MWI. For four dimensional constructs, especially an infinite/infinitely expanding number of them, to be parallel like this would generally require an additional fifth dimensional axis of significant size, not something to out their to proposes nor would it mean much as theirs no evidence that Palkia or Dialga's control extends beyond the numerous four dimensional objects across the fifth dimensional axis (well beyond connecting Palkia's direction and parallel universe properties together).

Where the upgrade comes in is with the Distortion World. The Distortion World it not just outside space and the multiverse, it is parallel it the back to it's front; like an reflection. Equal and opposite to the regular multiverse, it can be described as cosmological object equal in size to the multiverse while existing on an axis outside that of the multiverse. Basically a four dimensional construct on a parallel fifth dimensional axis, which would require a sixth dimensional axis. Now Giratina's power, physical and metaphysical (hax) would not scale to this, it has no evidence of influencing anything beyond the four dimensional multiverse or it's own realm of equal size, but Giratina does have the ability to travel between the two realms at will, even able to influence the multiverse while remaining in the Distortion World. So this would just upgrade Giratina's range to being able to extend across (something akin to) a sixth dimensional axis.

Also Giratina should probably get Beyond-Dimensional Existence Type 1 for being the Distortion World, which lacks the concepts of time and direction.

Now who does scale this is Arceus (avatar) the "God who transcends everything" whose realm it created is not just beyond both time and space, but the reach of everything else in the world, including the Distortion World and Giratina (fun fact the dimensions in this scan is just straight up universe in Japanese no clue why TPCI would decide dimensions is easier to understand), while also having created and banished Giratina to the Distortion World. True Arceus also scales, but I have other plans for them with the new system is in place... I also have plans for the avatar as well but anyway.

Oh, also Arceus should have an additional "At Least" tier to it's avatar key directly scaling to the Creation Trio (2-B/2-A) for all the times it appears where it's stronger than them but not to a higher dimensional levels of demolishing them (It's hax and range that scales to it's Tier 1 Realm should still be the same level in this Tier 2 avatar key because if I don't clarify this here people will probably be annoying about it).

Edit: Also Hoopa summoned Giratina in that movie I forgot about until just now so they possibly scale their range as well.

Summary:

• Giratina gets 6D Range and Beyond Dimensional Existence Type 1
• Hoopa gets 6D Range for it's summoning
• Arceus' avatar key gains an additional At least 2-B, 2-A in addition to it's Low 1-C Tier (Should this also be a varies Tier as well?). It also gets it's stuff upgraded from 5D to 6D? 7D? (Arceus' true form should also be upgraded but it's in limbo because of the new tier system)

 

[Hasty12345]

Huh????? Fk the CRT I hope you’re doing well and have a pleasant recovery

 

[Hasty12345]

As for the CRT, 6D in principle seems sound, but I’m not sure if it qualifies for qualitative superiority. I’ll wait for the experts.

 

[Everything12]

Well they can't really be string dimensions or the like considering the size of the cosmological objects they contain would require dimensions of significant size.

 

[Arceus0x]

So I had cancer, that was fun and kept me busy.

I've quit Pokescaling but I had to reply and say that I am sorry that that happened to you and I'm glad that you've recovered. Hope you'll remain fine man.

 

[GarrixianXD]

So I had cancer, that was fun and kept me busy. During that "free time"

I hope you’re far better now.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

First of all, condolences on the situation and hope for the best health. And hope that you are doing a lot better now.

Also, while I'm not sure if this was something that could be effected, but I have heard that universes (Or possibly even multiverses" are perceived as game cartridges with Arceus supposedly having some kind of R>F level of transcendence. And if all of this is true, it could go up to 1-A by the new tiering system that Ultima Reality has updated.

But aside from that, the proposals look finish from a glance.

 

[Everything12]

The 1-A stuff was why I'm not talking about true form Arceus here, everything else should be unaffected by that. Well I might be able to argue a higher Possibly tier for Arceus avatar for that's in addition to it's stuff now.

 

[Eseseso]

So I had cancer, that was fun and kept me busy. During that "free time" I spent looking up stuff on relativity and quantum mechanics for fun and that got me thinking on dimensions, as a Pokemon fan who started with Gen IV those thoughts turned into this.

Pokemon universes are composed of space (which consists of parallel universes and directions) and time, standard four dimensional universe model. These universes are infinite/infinitely expanding parallel to each other which is also classified as space in Pokemon, standard multiverse based off MWI. For four dimensional constructs, especially an infinite/infinitely expanding number of them, to be parallel like this would generally require an additional fifth dimensional axis of significant size, not something to out their to proposes nor would it mean much as theirs no evidence that Palkia or Dialga's control extends beyond the numerous four dimensional objects across the fifth dimensional axis (well beyond connecting Palkia's direction and parallel universe properties together).

Where the upgrade comes in is with the Distortion World. The Distortion World it not just outside space and the multiverse, it is parallel it the back to it's front; like an reflection. Equal and opposite to the regular multiverse, it can be described as cosmological object equal in size to the multiverse while existing on an axis outside that of the multiverse. Basically a four dimensional construct on a parallel fifth dimensional axis, which would require a sixth dimensional axis. Now Giratina's power, physical and metaphysical (hax) would not scale to this, it has no evidence of influencing anything beyond the four dimensional multiverse or it's own realm of equal size, but Giratina does have the ability to travel between the two realms at will, even able to influence the multiverse while remaining in the Distortion World. So this would just upgrade Giratina's range to being able to extend across (something akin to) a sixth dimensional axis.

Also Giratina should probably get Beyond-Dimensional Existence Type 1 for being the Distortion World, which lacks the concepts of time and direction.

Now who does scale this is Arceus (avatar) the "God who transcends everything" whose realm it created is not just beyond both time and space, but the reach of everything else in the world, including the Distortion World and Giratina (fun fact the dimensions in this scan is just straight up universe in Japanese no clue why TPCI would decide dimensions is easier to understand), while also having created and banished Giratina to the Distortion World. True Arceus also scales, but I have other plans for them with the new system is in place... I also have plans for the avatar as well but anyway.

Oh, also Arceus should have an additional "At Least" tier to it's avatar key directly scaling to the Creation Trio for all the times it appears where it's stronger than them but not to a higher dimensional levels of demolishing them.

Honestly was thinking about the Distortion World's cosmological size myself, albeit not this.

So only Arceus's stats as well as Giratina's range gets upgraded, to be sure?

Anyways, looks fine to me.

 

[Everything12]

Honestly was thinking about the Distortion World's cosmological size myself, albeit not this.

So only Arceus's stats as well as Giratina's range gets upgraded, to be sure?

Anyways, looks fine to me.

No other Pokemon beyond Giratina and Arceus have any affect on the Distortion World, and even the other Sinnoh legends best feats only concern multiple universes. Wait... #@?%, Hoopa forgot about them, Giratina was summoned in that movie weren't they.

Anyway, what were you thinking about? I'm interested if they are similar to some other thoughts I've had.

 

[Eseseso]

Anyway, what were you thinking about? I'm interested if they are similar to some other thoughts I've had.

Not to derail, but I was just thinking about how the Distortion World is stated on both Giratina and Arceus's profiles to be beyond time and space, which made me wonder if the Distortion World was 5-dimensional (which would make Giratina's true form Low 1-C).

 

[Everything12]

Yeah, but it's also made clear that the Distortion World is equal as well as opposite to space and time (the multiverse) so the only way one of them changes tier's is if they both do... which you could make an argument as I mentioned in the opening but it would probably be a bit weak.

So it's less beyond as in transcendent and more beyond as in lacking, which is why I only said Giratina should have Type 1 BDE in this thread.

Also Giratina should probably get Beyond-Dimensional Existence Type 1 for being the Distortion World, which lacks the concepts of time and direction.

 

[Eseseso]

Yeah, but it's also made clear that the Distortion World is equal as well as opposite to space and time (the multiverse) so the only way one of them changes tier's is if they both do... which you could make an argument as I mentioned in the opening but it would probably be a bit weak.

So it's less beyond as in transcendent and more beyond as in lacking, which is why I only said Giratina should have Type 1 BDE in this thread.

Yeah, figured a 5D Distortion World was a long shot.

Oh well.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Wouldn't this land them in tier 1 physically too?

 

[Everything12]

Now Giratina's power, physical and metaphysical (hax) would not scale to this, it has no evidence of influencing anything beyond the four dimensional multiverse or it's own realm of equal size

 

[CloverDragon03]

First of all, forget the CRT, I just hope you're doing alright now.

As for the CRT itself, I hold no strong opinions at the moment, but unless I'm mistaken, BDE stuff has kinda been reserved for 1-A and up now since 1-A involves stuff like R>F transcendence and statements of being beyond dimensionality

 

[Everything12]

First of all, forget the CRT, I just hope you're doing alright now.

As for the CRT itself, I hold no strong opinions at the moment, but unless I'm mistaken, BDE stuff has kinda been reserved for 1-A and up now since 1-A involves stuff like R>F transcendence and statements of being beyond dimensionality

Only Type 2, Type 1 is beyond dimensions on a non-qualitative level. Basically lacking space and time without beyond higher in the cosmology like the Distortion World here.

 

[CloverDragon03]

That should be fine then

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

So I had cancer,

Get well soon

 

[CloverDragon03]

Also, if not for the new tiering system, would this make Arceus 7-D? From my understanding, you're saying that Arceus transcends everything, including the 6-D Distortion World if I'm not mistaken

 

[Eseseso]

So I had cancer, that was fun and kept me busy.

Really sorry to hear that, hope you're doing better now.

 

[Everything12]

There it is.

As Arceus' realm is beyond Giratina and the Distortion World, and all the other stuff that gives it it's current tier, you can say that Arceus' avatar should have the same level of transcendence as it currently has over the rest of the Pokeverse, aka it should be 7D... but also it's only two five dimensional cosmological construct on what is a greater axis and just because Giratina could reach between the two doesn't mean it's range can extend across the whole axis. So Arceus' realm could just be another much much larger object on the same axis.

I personally don't know which option is the most reasonable so I just stayed quiet and waited to see others opinion on the topic. Well actually I think the 7D one is more reasonable, but I also could be biased.

Also the Distortion World is equal to multiple four dimensional constructs spread across what is a fifth axis separated from the multiverse by a sixth axis. It's not 6D itself.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I just meant True Arceus, not the Avatar Arceus, though I can see how Avatar Arceus would also fall into this...

Also, my bad on the Distortion World stuff, it's a bit confusing to me ngl

 

[Everything12]

Oh yeah, true Arceus would be at least 7D from this if it wasn't for the 1-A stuff.

Also yeah. Tier 1 is confusing on it's own neither mind dealing with stuff that is technically Tier 1 but is actually Tier 2 object that involves being fifth dimensional and sixth dimensional range. Complete nonsense that's hard to understand even with context.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Are we really going to claim that there is only one Distortion World for the infinite timelines of the real world? Really?

Are we going to ignore that the Entralink confirms that each copy of a game is a timeline, meaning that Giratina itself gets captured and taken out of the Distortion World in millions of different timelines? In the exact same spot every single time? Or that Giratina apparently took the time to try and stop Cyrus' plans to protect the Distortion World, even though as per USUM, we know that Cyrus' plans wouldn't have affected anything outside of his home world?

The idea of the Distortion World being this weird higher-dimensional super timeline is some insane extrapolation based on the "real world" or "our universe" being actually infinite dimensions. Which is based on the, in my opinion, already wrong notion that Dialga and Palkia are multiversal in scope (we literally see how there is multiple of them in the multiverse in USUM). And that notion is seemingly contradicted by the Time-Space Axis of the anime, which shows the Distortion World being equal to the main universe, which is not even remotely implied to contain parallel timelines.


At the very least, I think that there being a Distortion World for every timeline makes way more sense than there being a single giant Distortion World for every timeline. Once again, we know for a fact that multiple copies of the CT exist in the multiverse. This is outright proven by how USUM allows you to catch a the same CT member that Cyrus uses in his Rainbow Rocket fight. And if we're going to take "Giratina is the Distortion World" thing a bit literally, then multiple Giratinas would just mean multuple Distortion Worlds.

 

[Everything12]

Are we really going to claim that there is only one Distortion World for the infinite timelines of the real world? Really?

Are we going to ignore that the Entralink confirms that each copy of a game is a timeline, meaning that Giratina itself gets captured and taken out of the Distortion World in millions of different timelines? In the exact same spot every single time? Or that Giratina apparently took the time to try and stop Cyrus' plans to protect the Distortion World, even though as per USUM, we know that Cyrus' plans wouldn't have affected anything outside of his home world?

The idea of the Distortion World being this weird higher-dimensional super timeline is some insane extrapolation based on the "real world" or "our universe" being actually infinite dimensions. Which is based on the, in my opinion, already wrong notion that Dialga and Palkia are multiversal in scope (we literally see how there is multiple of them in the multiverse in USUM). And that notion is seemingly contradicted by the Time-Space Axis of the anime, which shows the Distortion World being equal to the main universe, which is not even remotely implied to contain parallel timelines.


At the very least, I think that there being a Distortion World for every timeline makes way more sense than there being a single giant Distortion World for every timeline. Once again, we know for a fact that multiple copies of the CT exist in the multiverse. This is outright proven by how USUM allows you to catch a the same CT member that Cyrus uses in his Rainbow Rocket fight. And if we're going to take "Giratina is the Distortion World" thing a bit literally, then multiple Giratinas would just mean multuple Distortion Worlds.

We do know at least a single instance of the Creation Trio have an influence over a multiverse of infinite/infinitely expanding size, of which Giratina was able to manipulate in Legends Arceus. So at the very least "Space" and the Distortion World are infinite/infinitely expanding multiverse in size.

Pokemon universes are composed of space (which consists of parallel universes and directions) and time, standard four dimensional universe model. These universes are infinite/infinitely expanding parallel to each other which is also classified as space in Pokemon, standard multiverse based off MWI.

but the reach of everything else in the world, including the Distortion World and Giratina (fun fact the dimensions in this scan is just straight up universe in Japanese no clue why TPCI would decide dimensions is easier to understand)

This is without bringing up the anime episodes which plot was Palkia and Dialga was causing multiple universes to de-age and Ash and the gang from two parallel universe had to work together to stop them.

 

[Georredannea15]

Pokemon universes are composed of space (which consists of parallel universes and directions) and time, standard four dimensional universe model. These universes are infinite/infinitely expanding parallel to each other which is also classified as space in Pokemon, standard multiverse based off MWI. For four dimensional constructs, especially an infinite/infinitely expanding number of them, to be parallel like this would generally require an additional fifth dimensional axis of significant size, not something to out their to proposes nor would it mean much as theirs no evidence that Palkia or Dialga's control extends beyond the numerous four dimensional objects across the fifth dimensional axis (well beyond connecting Palkia's direction and parallel universe properties together).

This is not really the case, an infinite number of 4th dimensional axes extending to infinity basically gives you the 5th dimensional axis( For 4-dimensional infinite structures to be parallel) but this does not mean that the 5th dimensional axis is significant sized. An infinite 4th dimensional axis cannot extend to the 5th dimensional axis, no matter how far it extends or how much it is (even if the 5th dimensional axis is of an insignificant size)

A 5th axis of insignificant size can still hold infinite 4-dimensional structures (i.e infinite 4th dimension axes) in an extra axis of motion where they will not intersect. This does not mean that the 5th axis is necessarily of significant size


Well, I haven't looked at the other stuff yet but I can tell you this is the case. So, is this the basis for the 6-D upgrade?

 

[Everything12]

Well yeah the four dimensional universes don't fill up the fifth dimensional axis even if their is an infinite number of them, but for them to exist parallel to each other in the way the multiverse is that requires them to be on a fifth dimensional axis that at has to be of a non-compacted nature. That's what significant size means, it's not the likes of string theory's dimensions but instead of similar nature to the previous four dimensional axis.

 

[Georredannea15]

Well yeah the four dimensional universes don't fill up the fifth dimensional axis even if their is an infinite number of them, but for them to exist parallel to each other in the way the multiverse is that requires them to be on a fifth dimensional axis that at has to be of a non-compacted nature. That's what significant size means, it's not the likes of string theory's dimensions but instead of similar nature to the previous four dimensional axis.

The 5th axis ensures that the infinite 4-dimensional structures that are already parallel to each other do not intersect each other. It contains them, but that doesn't mean that the 5th axis is infinite, the fact that the 4th axis is infinite has no implications for the 5th axis, it just means that the 4th axis inside the 5th axis is infinite. But what we need is the size of the 5th axis (along the 5th dimension) The fact that the 4th axis is infinite and inside the 5th axis doesn't really work for the 5th axis because this infinity still applies to the 4th axis, not to the 5th axis. The 5th axis can still hold them without being infinite, so that their volume is still be zero.

What you say and this are two different things.

Apart from these theories, this has already been revised in the wiki and this is how it was decided (here and here)

 

[Everything12]

That thread is talking about an object being bigger than an infinite (number of) fourth dimensional object needing to be fifth dimensional (uncountable infinite), which it doesn't. This is about equal-sized cosmological objects being parallel needing extra axis to exist across that way.

This thread is about position not size basically, so question like that is inapplicable.

I'd say more but I'm not 100% certain why Yggdrassil is currently Low 1-C so I can't say how applicable it is for the current situation.

 

[Georredannea15]

See the problem here is that is about proving they are destroying an object that meets the minimum requirements for Tier 1 AP, being uncountable infinite larger than a fourth dimensional object. That's not what we are talking about here, the fifth dimensional axis here is mostly empty, their is no fifth dimensional object being destroyed here, so we don't need to know it is uncountably infinite. We just need need to know that a non-insignificant dimension equivalent to the previous four exists to be traversed.

Well that and those threads are talking about an object being bigger than infinite needing to have extra dimensions, which you don't. This is about equal-sized cosmological objects being parallel needing extra axis to exist across that way.

But the problem is not that the structure they destroy is uncountably infinitely larger than the 4th dimensional axis, that it is just only 1 axis of motion larger than it. But 1 more axis of motion does not necessarily mean that it is uncountably infinitely larger than 4th dimensional axis (and the fact that the 5th axis is substantial or infinite means that it is uncountably infinitely larger than the 4th dimensional axis, but there are only infinitely extends 4-dimensional parallel structures, and there is no context or evidence that the 5th dimensional axis is infinite sized)


This 5th dimensional axis just hold these 4th dimensional pararlel structrues in 0 volume. And it's not enough for infinite sized 5th dimensional axis.
Also, if you see the articles I quoted, the extra 5th axis and similar things that we discussed in this thread were also discussed there.

The extra 5th axis and when it can and cannot qualify for Low 1-C, etc... It will be enough to read the comments I quoted. There we talked not only about "structures larger than 2-A", also about what is being discussed here"

I mean... What we talked about was also discussed there.

 

[Everything12]

This thread is only about sixth dimensional range, not Low 1-C. You are focusing on a false-equivalence, this situation is entirely different. The multiverse doesn't even need to be infinite/infinitely expanding here, it just adds some extra context.

The only Tier stuff if for a character whose already been accepted to being qualitatively beyond the rest of the verse and that's the only reason that would upgrade them.

You are so use to other threads about upgrading Tiers and hax that you don't realise that none of that matters for this situation. You talk about axis of motions as if just proving them is unimportant, but that is what this thread is focusing on and proving that is key to this thread.

 

[Georredannea15]

That thread is talking about an object being bigger than an infinite (number of) fourth dimensional object needing to be fifth dimensional (uncountable infinite), which it doesn't. This is about equal-sized cosmological objects being parallel needing extra axis to exist across that way.

This thread is about position not size basically, so question like that is inapplicable.

I'd say more but I'm not 100% certain why Yggdrassil is currently Low 1-C so I can't say how applicable it is for the current situation.

Btw, we discussed this too, and DT told us that contaions infinite 4-dimensional structures and being infinitely larger than them and not intersecting them, will give you the 5th axis, but it will not be Low 1-C.

However, later there were direct statements and contexts stating that the 5th axis of Yggdrasil contained a separate space with the 5th axis and also extended infinitely along this 5th axis. That's why Ygg become Low 1-C

 

[Omnificence]

Agree with everything FRA.

 

[Georredannea15]

This thread is only about sixth dimensional range, not Low 1-C. You are focusing on a false-equivalence, this situation is entirely different. The multiverse doesn't even need to be infinite/infinitely expanding here, it just adds some extra context.

The only Tier stuff if for a character whose already been accepted to being qualitatively beyond the rest of the verse and that's the only reason that would upgrade them.

You are so use to other threads about upgrading Tiers and hax that you don't realise that none of that matters for this situation. You talk about axis of motions as if just proving them is unimportant, but that is what this thread is focusing on and proving that is key to this thread.

But range also means size. 6-dimensional range = the size that can qualify for a 6-dimensional AP (Low 1-C)

And likewise, if there is no magnitude, there is no range because both are directly proportional.

 

[Everything12]

Btw, we discussed this too, and DT told us that contaions infinite 4-dimensional structures and being infinitely larger than them and not intersecting them, will give you the 5th axis, but it will not be Low 1-C.

However, later there were direct statements and contexts stating that the 5th axis of Yggdrasil contained a separate space with the 5th axis and also extended infinitely along this 5th axis. That's why Ygg become Low 1-C

Good, that is all I'm arguing for. Nothing here is Low 1-C beyond the thing that already is agreed to be qualitvely above everything (even if that everything is mostly nothing)

But range also means size. 6-dimensional range = the size that can qualify for a 6-dimensional AP (Low 1-C)

And likewise, if there is no magnitude, there is no range because both are directly proportional.

Their is no Low 1-C because a majority of these fifth and sixth dimensional axis are just empty. Their is nothing to affect of destroy, they just separate a collection of four dimensional constructs. That's all this is about.

 

[Georredannea15]

Good, that is all I'm arguing for. Nothing here is Low 1-C beyond the thing that already is agreed to be qualitvely above everything (even if that everything is mostly nothing)

But in this thread you defend range and 6-D. Without significant size range and these won't happen. As I said, both are directly proportional.

 

[Everything12]

Your approaching this from a position of false equivalence and what appears to be understanding of dimensions seeming to be born from this wiki that is overly concerned with proving uncountable infinity. This is causing me issues as I try and debunk a point of understanding that is born purely of misunderstanding.

The dimensions of this thread are of significant size not by showing that they are a infinity uncountable greater than the previous dimension, but that they serve a cosmological function that the previous dimension can't and necessity a higher dimension of significant size to have the properties they do.

 

[Georredannea15]

Your approaching this from a position of false equivalence and what appears to be understanding of dimensions seeming to be born from this wiki that is overly concerned with proving uncountable infinity. This is causing me issues as I try and debunk a point of understanding that is born purely of misunderstanding.

The dimensions of this thread are of significant size not by showing that they are a infinity uncountable greater than the previous dimension, but that they serve a cosmological function that the previous dimension can't and necessity a higher dimension of significant size to have the properties they do.

The extra axis of significant size has the same nature as uncountable infinity on the wiki.

Because the situation here is the volume of the higher dimensional axis, in which the extra axis must be of significant size, which means that it is equivalent to an uncountable infinite number of structures from the lower dimension.

If this extra axis does not have significant size, beings equivalent to it or being scale above it still maintain the same level.

For example, due to this insignificant size, there would be no 7-D for Arceus, because even though the cosmology it was on had an extra axis, it would still not gain any attributes for the tier, it would still be at the same level.

The same is true for range. Range basically scales with the volume and size of that dimension or space or whatever (e.g. someone with 5-D range can completely affect a 5-D structure with an infinite volume).

However, if the 5th dimensional axis of this 5D structure is not of significant size or infinite size, this 5D structure will not have infinite 5D volume and affecting it will not give you 5-D range. I mean this.

 

[Everything12]

I'm going to be honest, I've been cooked for several hours now talking slight nonsense and am at the point where I can't even bring myself to read all that and am just stalling something I shouldn't at this point.

@Ultima_Reality @Agnaa
You two like Tier 1 right? Can you have a look at this?