Pokemon Downgrade: 3-C and High 3-A are outliers

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Zygarde coming to is pretty much a proof of UBs being a threat = to Xerneas and Yveltal, and Zygarde is stated to come anytime a new threat for the ecosystem comes to the Earth. It did for UBs like it did for Xerneas and Yveltal so what's wrong here.

Its not even Zygarde being hyped up to fight against the UB's that should be the main focus of the oppositions flawed counter argument.

Zygarde, at this point, literally has feats of fighting them to cement said hype statements as being taken at face value for what they are. Getting feats of him fighting them was literally the only reason why Zygarde wasn't upgraded much earlier on to scale from them in the first place. We decided to wait until something cemented said claims of him being UB level, and Adventures provided said evidence as blatantly as you can get. We needed evidence for said claims to be legit, and now we have it.

But now all of a sudden, we're backtracking and treading backwards from it.

 

[Waka1979]

But now all of a sudden, we're backtracking and treading backwards from it.

Tbf it was inevitable that people would disagree with it.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Tbf it was inevitable that people would disagree with it.

Which im not too surprised about, but somewhat surprised at the same time. It boggles my mind on how much some will switch pivots on a whim to suit the narrative of what they want to argue compared to what was preset before. And this flawed mentality isn't even limited to just Zygarde, but generally any character or verse that tries getting a decent upgrade.

Character A tries jumping from, say, 6-C all the way to 4-A because of [insert reason here]. But we put a stop to that upgrade, and keep Character A at 6-C for the time being, until he gets more feats or evidence to support him being upgraded in the latter tier. Then eventually later, the required evidence from his series that gives strong evidence of 4-A comes to the surface, the evidence that was originally required as part of the deal. But then all of a sudden, we change directions and go right back to earlier arguments of skepticism over the upgrade despite said evidence that was asked for the first time.

Excuse my French, but why the **** would we ever wait on any character getting more evidence for the upgrade they try getting, if the end result of it being an outlier, is already pre-conceived by others? Whether that evidence comes forward or not? There comes a point where making overuse of the "outlier" argument, even when presented with evidence that was asked for the first time to disprove said outlier, becomes a cop-out.

And we are right in the middle of that here in this thread.

 

[Overlord775]

Except you're wrong, Mewtwo, Deoxys, etc, etc all predate the **** outta Necrozma and Zygarde, yet they scale, Mewtwo back in Gen 1 topped out at like 7-C/B fyi, whatever Dragonair's city bust is, that was the best Pokemon feat for years. And Lugia is weak? Sure, nowadays, but back then? It was stronger then Mewtwo based on feats. At the time the best feat in all of Pokemon's main canon was from Lugia. And as such, case and point. These characters you're complaining about scaling have steadily went from 7-C, to Tier 6, to 5 and so on, steadily jumping tiers every gen. Are you going to complain about Groudon scaling to Tier 5 because before said Tier 5 feats, he was only 6-B. Or Mewtwo scaling to anything above 7-C because his best feat for years was only that? Like it or not, feats that are better can happen, and if the last feat in question is tier 3, I'm not so keen and calling it an outlier because it's simply the best feat when Pokemon has a long standing track record of coming out with huge feats that dwarf the previous ones every single gen and the Pokemon prior scaling to said new feat.
My point being, your argument of "top legends only having feats of ____ tier before this one" is bad and is one of the worst possible arguments you can use when talking about not only the most recent feat, as in, the newest feat and showing of power, but in a verse that has done this for decades? Seems like an argument of incredulity and not actually having watched the franchise jump the shark in real time.

If there was a single High 6-Ato 5-B feat, then sure, it would be outlier, but there is a lot

Zekrom and Reshiram's Lore and Dex entries say hi.

6-A

PMD Fug/Deoxys Feat is 5-B. Primals have some 5-B shit last I checked. Shadow Mewtwo's Nuke (5-A iirc, but is probably 5-B after a recalc, pretty sure the the cloud and KE aspect of it is heavily outdated), one of like, the numerous incarnations of Grand Delta. Grand Delta in the Manga being 5-A. Like what are you on about? Gen 6 had a **** ton of planetary feats.

Non-Canon

Recalced

Not canon and reliant on an outside power boost

Not accepted

Except they have and something tells me you very clearly haven't been following Pokemon since it first came out, or even for half of it, because you're beyond wrong. **** it's easy to prove you wrong. Find a feat above Tier 7 in Gen 1, trust me, you can't. Find a feat above Island in Gen 2 (You can't). Find a feat above Country level in Gen 3 (At the time, nothing). Find a feat above PMD' Deoxys in Gen 4 (Ignoring Cosmics), find a feat beyond planetary ashing or vaporizing seas and shit in Gen 5. Gen 6 is when Pokemon really starting hitting planet busting and the like, while previously basically nothing implied that. And then Gen 7 brought out some cosmic feats for the non god legends. It's basic power escalition dude and it's being going on since Pokemon began.

Doesn't prove a feat quintillions of time above the setting is not an outlier

Not in Gen 3 they didn't, that didn't come to be till further elaboration on them and not fully shown till Gen 6 in ORAS. Back when RSE first came out and when the manga was being published? The best feat was country level.

Pokedex entries says so

Maybe if they had any anti-feats post Gen 7 to speak of. Unfortunately, your argument could have applied to every single time Pokemon got a nice new shiny feat that exceeded the previous upper limit. Which would have been a lot. Also technically speaking it's two feats, Necrozma has two feats of cosmic caliber, and technically so do the Lunar Duo.

Gen 7 people scale, the problem is trying to scale everybody from all Gens to it

If you want to argue it as an outlier, stick to Zygarde 50% simply not scaling at all rather then the "well it's to high compared to older feats", because the latter argument is suspect as ****. At least with Zygarde you could argue he doesn't scale at all based on him getting floored rather then it simply not counting just because. But as Kukui mentioned, 50% of 100% kinda speaks for itself.

factually wrong, 100% Zygarde has been shown as vastly stronger than 50%

Your comparation is like saying Semi-Perfect Cell is half as powefull as Perfect Cell

the whole is stronger than it's components

 

[Overlord775]

Okay so aside from what others have probably already said here before I came here, your little bit of an argument given here is just "outlier, outlier, OUTLIER!". Which isn't an actual argument and is just, as usual, being overused.

It is when a feat is quntillions to infinity above anything the serie had showcased

First off, this vague argument of "literally NO OTHER feat" is completely irrelevant. Why? Because scaling is what's a thing here for these guys for the most part. It's as was said in the upgrade thread by yours truly. For something to exist as an outlier, lower end feats that are indicative of a characters portrayal of power are required in order to substantiate the claim of an outlier. Just as you would numbers on a graph, you take the feats of the character and compare them all to one another. The feat that becomes "the odd one out" above or below everything else becomes the outlier, for it isn't consistent by any sort of means. However, if there are no other conflicting feats to compare to the feat in question, the latter by sheer textbook definition and how it works cannot be considered an outlier. This case for the upgraded Pokemon is the latter case.

There's a BIG difference between high end feats and feats that makes completly no sense to the setting of the serie in any shape or form

Which we don't accept on this site. You probably should've fact checked the pages first before you try and present a case where your argument for it already isn't an ironclad basis.

Just watch here Deozys blocking a hyperbeam from M-Ray with little problem

Deoxys in every iteration of Pokemon has been fodderized by Mega Rayquaza in anything that isn't a speed contest. And this is coming from someone who initially argued for him to scale to the latter's AP. If you disagree, better get in a CRT for him before using it here.

Litteral missinformation since they always shown as rivals and equals

anyway, don't need a CTR, this ia CTR, sooooo, that will be removed

Which we also don't accept here. So same as above.

which makes no sense since the scene it's from is canon

Somewhat right here, but you kinda missed the point on why it was brought up in the first place. "Endless"/Limitless energy was used as a means of supporting the idea of the upgrade, and is not the main basis. So this doesn't help you as much as you want to think it does.

and neither does a rnadom infinity statement from an unrelated thing entirely help yours in any way

Again, all of this is just ignoring the fact that these legendaries get their tiers from scaling from one to the other, and the feats that they do perform at (ignoring the fact that Ex's canon blog will reinstate some of these, which will speak more to the point here) are casual. Neither of which are indicative of an outlier argument.

Proof that they are casual ? Because they VERY much don't look like it to me

And as for axing 50% Zygarde from scaling to Ultra Necrozma, that is a no too. We already accept the fact that 50% Zygarde is far inferior to Ultra Necrozma, but that doesn't at all mean that he cannot be in the same realm of power as him, which the OP seems to either lack the concept of or is ignoring it.

climbing on mirrors

So all in all, im completely against any of these downgrades. Better counter arguments than this were already made in the thread, and the majority disagreed with and addressed them. On top of that, people seem to keep forgetting that the High 3-A aspect of the upgrades, even WITH the arguments for them, were only at best given a "Likely". Not even a solid upgrade as a means of acknowledging the possibility of it being the case in the first place.

Stop that that attitude of intrensic superiority

also, we have no proof that 50% Zygarde was going to fight the UBs in the games, for all we know it's plan is more likely it to have gone 100% since it was gathering all its cells to Alola.

also also, you completly ignore the fact the serie is inconsistent as heck, so scaling because of one instance is not enough proof

 

[StrymULTRA]

also, we have no proof that 50% Zygarde was going to figh the UBs in the games, for all we know it's plan is more likely it to have gone 100% since it was gathering all its cells to Alola.

The fact you say that is pretty sad, ngl.

Mangas are hella different from the games in general, and Mewtwo alone is a proof of that.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Plus, all the Tier 6/5 feats are done with literally zero effort as stated before. Any tier 3 would be able to perform such feats with the same ease.

 

[Armorchompy]

Personally I am in agreement that the backscaling is a bit too generous, as for the feats themselves I'm neutral so far

 

[StrymULTRA]

Feat being an outlier is complete disrespect towards Necrozma as it would negate the point of the theme of Gen 7 tbf.

 

[Sadistic_Sleuth]

Pretty sure we are about to accept PMD as canon, so no more of those “non-canon” arguments

 

[Overlord775]

The fact you say that is pretty sad, ngl.

Mangas are hella different from the games in general, and Mewtwo alone is a proof of that.

first, personal attack, so stop that

second thing, that doesn't really matter

Also the feat scaling being an outlier doesn't negate the point of Gen7's plot at all

@Sadistic_Sleuth

i'm pretty sure we don't since we had the whole debate about what's canon and what's not

also if were canon they just reinforce that legendaries aren't galactic to universal in scale

 

[Garchomp777]

No one gave a proper reasoning why PMD is non canon
Also, Read this

 

[StrymULTRA]

Let's analyze all the tier 5 feats shall we?

Reshiram's White dex entry: When Reshiram’s tail flares, the heat energy moves the atmosphere and changes the world’s weather.

And Reshiram does that from literally doing nothing

Mega Rayquaza destroying the Grand Meteor Delta:

Literally does it from just charging in it, passing through as the meteor didn't exist.

Even its AP description

At least Galaxy level, possibly High Universe level (Did this. Effortlessly destroyed the Grand Meteor Delta, which would completely obliterate the planet. Stomped Deoxys, destroying even its Psycho Boost with no difficulty at all. Should be stronger than Mega Mewtwo X/Y, as its base performed better against Deoxys than Mewtwo did)

So, again, what's so wrong with them being tier 3 is tier 5 stuff is complete fodder for them?

 

[Armorchompy]

Uh, Rayquaza in base was unable to destroy the GMD

 

[Overlord775]

Let's analyze all the tier 5 feats shall we?

Reshiram's White dex entry: When Reshiram’s tail flares, the heat energy moves the atmosphere and changes the world’s weather.

And Reshiram does that from literally doing nothing

Wrong thing, the flaring refers to it's Overdrive State, which is when it goes at full power

also, that's only 6-A

Mega Rayquaza destroying the Grand Meteor Delta:

Literally does it from just charging in it, passing through as the meteor didn't exist.

AHAHA, no

Mega Rayquaza is using Dragon Ascent there, not just charging at it

Even its AP description

At least Galaxy level, possibly High Universe level (Did this. Effortlessly destroyed the Grand Meteor Delta, which would completely obliterate the planet. Stomped Deoxys, destroying even its Psycho Boost with no difficulty at all. Should be stronger than Mega Mewtwo X/Y, as its base performed better against Deoxys than Mewtwo did)

Very much missinformation, it needed to use the strongest move in it's arsenal to bust the meteor and Deoxys can keep up with and block attacks from Mega-Ray

 

[JooCipher]

didn't mega ray absolutely destroy deoxys

 

[Overlord775]

didn't mega ray absolutely destroy deoxys

Notice how Deoxyz blocked Ray's Hyper Beam here, how M-Ray activelly dodged stuff and how Deoxys even menages to block Dragon Ascend for a bit and wasn't instantly vaporized

 

[JooCipher]

deoxys was still one shot by mega ray
in it's defense form no less
at best he gets 5-A shields
also, base ray reduced deoxys to its core at the start of detiny deoxys

 

[Armorchompy]

Ok so apparently Rayquaza = Deoxys =< Mega Rayquaza but Mega Ray can easily destroy something base Ray had no hope of destroying?

 

[Overlord775]

@joeCipher

By Mega Rayquaza's strongest move, also not quite one-shot since it took a glancing hit beforehand
Defense form isn't THAT much bulkier than base form
frinedly reminder that Doexys used his telekenesys to block an hyperbeam

also, that was before Mega-Ray was a thing, now Deoxys has been rewritten to the level of the Mega

 

[JooCipher]

it took a hit and used recover right after(said hit ripped off a decent chunk of deoxys's body)
it's called DEFENSE form for a reason. It should, ya know, be more resistent than base form
also all that Deoxys did was move some parts of the meteor in order to take the blast
and mega ray just powered through Attack form deoxys's Shadow Ball and took absolutely no damage

 

[CloverDragon03]

I was in the 3-C to High 3-A thread and now I'm reading this, and nothing here convinces me that this stuff should be an outlier. The most glaring thing here is that the Tier 5 stuff being used as "counterpoints" are stuff that was complete fodder to these Pokemon, as in basically no exertion whatsoever.

Case in point, I disagree with this downgrade.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

It is when a feat is quntillions to infinity above anything the serie had showcased

It isn't when what's showcased isn't the upper limit of the characters involved.

There's a BIG difference between high end feats and feats that makes completly no sense to the setting of the serie in any shape or form

Which is only your opinion and not something you can actually back up. Meanwhile, said scaling and setting of the series, a series mind you that has undergone very significant changes in power and scale as of recent, makes it make a lot of sense.

And it's only being blocked by the desperate cop out defense called "Outlier" that's overused to death on this site. Take that away and you have nothing to battle with here.

Just watch here Deozys blocking a hyperbeam from M-Ray with little problem

Which, again, isn't accepted here. You think you were the first one to bring this up for him? Again, yours truly brought this and generations up the first time I tried gunning for Deoxys to scale to Mega Ray's AP. And it was disagreed with in the end for it's much too little.

So again, get this accepted in a CRT first or it's a total non-argument here.

Litteral missinformation since they always shown as rivals and equals

anyway, don't need a CTR, this ia CTR, sooooo, that will be removed

Ah yes, here's the "this is a CRT so its fine to argue it here" defense when presented with a point they can't get away from. No, this is a CRT about the recent upgrades. Not Deoxys. The latter's case is derailing, so take him to his own thread if you want any luck of getting the current scaling for him revised. Which I highly doubt you'd be able to do compared to previous attempts.

And you'd be wrong anyway as they aren't presented as equals in anything that isn't a speed contest. Mega Ray one shotted Deoxys in the manga. His hyper beam, which you referenced for me earlier, pierced through him easily. And considering the fact that Deoxys has outright been vaporized by a Base Rayquaza in one of their fights, scaling him to Mega Ray is even more ridiculous than it already is.

which makes no sense since the scene it's from is canon

And?

and neither does a rnadom infinity statement from an unrelated thing entirely help yours in any way

Which would be....?

Proof that they are casual ? Because they VERY much don't look like it to me

Rayquaza fodderizing Deoxys's meteor and then stomping him seconds later without batting an eye for example. Or you know, Xerneas's feat that it literally does by just...existing.

I don't really care if they don't look casual to you, what matters is if you can prove it isn't from your PoV.

climbing on mirrors

And how so?

Stop that that attitude of intrensic superiority

It's not an attitude of "superiority" when it's as what I've said. No offense intended, but these arguments are terrible and are borderline just complaints. Better actual arguments against the upgrades were made in the upgrade thread. And your's truly, along with several other people who are in this thread as well, addressed them when getting these upgrades accepted.

Literally your whole case here hinges on one thing. "Outliers". And having to use stuff that we don't even accept here as a means to give it some kind of small leg to stand on against the upgrades, for without this argument, this thread becomes meaningless as the end result.

also, we have no proof that 50% Zygarde was going to fight the UBs in the games, for all we know it's plan is more likely it to have gone 100% since it was gathering all its cells to Alola.

Nitpicking. The games specify that Zygarde in general came to Alola to fight off the BUs, nothing specifically says it only applies to 100%. And we don't need to sit here playing guessing games on this as Adventures already gives us the blatant answer that it isn't just 100% on their level.

Hell, even the doggo and cell forms have feats closer to their level (scaring off a horde of Nihilego's and the cells tanking attacks from Lunala at point blank range without getting disected). We could've opted in making Zygarde as a whole on the level of the UB's, but instead, we already go with something much safer that fits in the context, statements and evidence presented to us for him. That 50% and 100% are on the level of the Gen 7 legendaries.

Especially since, again, 50% is literally half of Perfect Zygarde's power, so by that virtue alone, he downscales.

also also, you completly ignore the fact the serie is inconsistent as heck, so scaling because of one instance is not enough proof

First off, stop with this "one instance" nonsense, because its a very damning understatement of what the evidence here actually gives. This isn't at all a "one instance". This is something that's literally been contextually built up for Zygarde in Gen 7, and by a great margin. The games specify his leaving of Kalos and coming to Alola to fight the UBs. The manga does the same thing, and goes deeper with giving several key point confirmations of Zygarde being on the level of these legendaries. And you don't even need to take my word for it. The literal feats themselves prove so.

This is something that has been built up and alluded to for quite a while in Gen 7, this isn't something that's random or coming out of nowhere in any way, shape or form. Trying to pass it off like that as a desperate attempt to reject it is ludicrious.

Secondly, you can save it with your "series is inconsistent" defense, because it's not going to fly here. For one, every verse has inconsistent scaling. Every single one. But we aren't about to just randomly null any well supported upgrade based off nothing but incredulity. And Pokemon isn't an exception to this. We know very well the verse has inconsistent scaling, all the way to the literal god tiers not being immune to it. But we treat stuff as inconsistent when we have reason to do so. And there's absolutely no reason to do so here when everything under the sun says otherwise on that.

Things being inconsistent =/= everything is inconsistent.

And quite frankly, it's laughable you call something that is given a multitude of supporting feats, on top of context and statements already pointing in that direction, inconsistent when it's ironically much more consistent than the amount of "lower end" things these guys have. And I quote "lower end" due to there being no actual lower ends.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Leave it to VSBW to list any feat that's "too high" as an outlier. I'm not even surprised at this point.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Leave it to VSBW to list any feat that's "too high" as an outlier. I'm not even surprised at this point.

Even Cal himself, who expressed to not care about these upgrades in the thread for this mind you, joins in on the notion of the overuse of the outlier clause.

Which should be somewhat telling for others tuning into this.

 

[Overlord775]

it took a hit and used recover right after(said hit ripped off a decent chunk of deoxys's body)
it's called DEFENSE form for a reason. It should, ya know, be more resistent than base form
also all that Deoxys did was move some parts of the meteor in order to take the blast
and mega ray just powered through Attack form deoxys's Shadow Ball and took absolutely no damage

actually just Deoxys' natural regeneration
yes, but not to a cosmic level of difference
unless you want to say the meteor was 3-C, it was Deozys doing stuff
it overpowered it with it's strongest attack

It isn't when what's showcased isn't the upper limit of the characters involved.

Same argument would make them 2-B vi scaling to the creation trio, you know ?

Which is only your opinion and not something you can actually back up. Meanwhile, said scaling and setting of the series, a series mind you that has undergone very significant changes in power and scale as of recent, makes it make a lot of sense.

More like one spike of power, after which came the SwSh with no feats worth of note

And it's only being blocked by the desperate cop out defense called "Outlier" that's overused to death on this site. Take that away and you have nothing to battle with here.

yes, it is, but just because something is missused it doesn't mean that you can't apply it EVER

Which, again, isn't accepted here. You think you were the first one to bring this up for him? Again, yours truly brought this and generations up the first time I tried gunning for Deoxys to scale to Mega Ray's AP. And it was disagreed with in the end for it's much too little.

I think the problem there is that you tried to make Deoxys scale to the 3-C/High 3-A feat

So again, get this accepted in a CRT first or it's a total non-argument here.

Ah yes, here's the "this is a CRT so its fine to argue it here" defense when presented with a point they can't get away from. No, this is a CRT about the recent upgrades. Not Deoxys. The latter's case is derailing, so take him to his own thread if you want any luck of getting the current scaling for him revised. Which I highly doubt you'd be able to do compared to previous attempts.

BRUH

that is complete bullshit and you know it, you can't just shut down the opposition because of another thing would have to be changed

the other thing is just changed too

And you'd be wrong anyway as they aren't presented as equals in anything that isn't a speed contest. Mega Ray one shotted Deoxys in the manga. His hyper beam, which you referenced for me earlier, pierced through him easily. And considering the fact that Deoxys has outright been vaporized by a Base Rayquaza in one of their fights, scaling him to Mega Ray is even more ridiculous than it already is.

Deoxys blocked an hyperbeam and even dragon ascent for a bit, also it got one shot in the manga

And?

you can't just ignore it

Rayquaza fodderizing Deoxys's meteor and then stomping him seconds later without batting an eye for example. Or you know, Xerneas's feat that it literally does by just...existing.

You mean beside the fact it used it's strongest move to do it ? or the fact M-Ray activelly dodged through the entire fight ?

also, if you count SPMD in, then you gotta aknowlage how Mega-Ray, Mega-Mewtwo and Deoxys needed to work togheter to block the Earth, which would put them at planetary

I don't really care if they don't look casual to you, what matters is if you can prove it isn't from your PoV.

you need to prove the positive, you have to show they are casual

And how so?

because it litterally doesn't change anything

It's not an attitude of "superiority" when it's as what I've said. No offense intended, but these arguments are terrible and are borderline just complaints. Better actual arguments against the upgrades were made in the upgrade thread. And your's truly, along with several other people who are in this thread as well, addressed them when getting these upgrades accepted.

Literally your whole case here hinges on one thing. "Outliers". And having to use stuff that we don't even accept here as a means to give it some kind of small leg to stand on against the upgrades, for without this argument, this thread becomes meaningless as the end result.

litterally the whole serie's scaling relies on Outliers or else everyone would scale to everyone

Nitpicking. The games specify that Zygarde in general came to Alola to fight off the BUs, nothing specifically says it only applies to 100%. And we don't need to sit here playing guessing games on this as Adventures already gives us the blatant answer that it isn't just 100% on their level.

Hell, even the doggo and cell forms have feats closer to their level (scaring off a horde of Nihilego's and the cells tanking attacks from Lunala at point blank range without getting disected). We could've opted in making Zygarde as a whole on the level of the UB's, but instead, we already go with something much safer that fits in the context, statements and evidence presented to us for him. That 50% and 100% are on the level of the Gen 7 legendaries.

Different media, you can't assume it's the same.

Especially since, again, 50% is literally half of Perfect Zygarde's power, so by that virtue alone, he downscales.

50% of the body =/= 50% of the power

First off, stop with this "one instance" nonsense, because its a very big understatement of what the evidence here actually gives. This isn't at all a "one instance". This is something that's literally been contextually built up for Zygarde in Gen 7, and by a great margin. The games specify his leaving of Kalos and coming to Alola to fight the UBs. The manga does the same thing, and goes deeper with giving several key point confirmations of Zygarde being on the level of these legendaries. And you don't even need to take my word for it. The literal feats themselves prove so.

This is something that has been built up and alluded to for quite a while in Gen 7, this isn't something that's random or coming out of nowhere in any way, shape or form. Trying to pass it off like that as a desperate attempt to reject it is ludicrious.

Secondly, you can save it with your "series is inconsistent" defense, because it's not going to fly here. For one, every verse has inconsistent scaling. Every single one. But we aren't about to just randomly null any well supported upgrade based off nothing but incredulity. And Pokemon isn't an exception to this. We know very well the verse has inconsistent scaling, all the way to the literal god tiers not being immune to it. But we treat stuff as inconsistent when we have reason to do so. And there's absolutely no reason to do so here when everything under the sun says otherwise on that.

Things being inconsistent =/= everything is inconsistent.

And quite frankly, it's laughable you call something that is given a multitude of supporting feats, on top of context and statements already pointing in that direction, inconsistent when it's ironically much more consistent than the amount of "lower end" things these guys have. And I quote "lower end" due to there being no actual lower ends.

litterally the same arguments you said could upgrade all legendaries to 2-B via scaling to the Creation Trio, but with more evidence backing it up

Even Cal himself, who expressed to not care about these upgrades in the thread for this mind you, joins in on the notion of the overuse of the outlier clause.

Which should be somewhat telling for others tuning into this.

not caring about the upgrades =/= being against them, so it doesn't matter

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

not caring about the upgrates =/= being against them

Yeah no. I was and still am against the High 3-A upgrades and I still think outlier is the most overused term in all of vsbw.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Wrong thing, the flaring refers to it's Overdrive State, which is when it goes at full power

also, that's only 6-A

Proof of both?

Mega Rayquaza is using Dragon Ascent there, not just charging at it

Where is stated that is using Dragon Ascent? You're saying that it's using Dragon Ascent all the time?

Deoxys can keep up with and block attacks from Mega-Ray

Already debunked from other above so no need to respond here.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Same argument would make them 2-B vi scaling to the creation trio, you know ?

You mean the same argument that has us downscale the Lunar Duo from the creation trio? Which we do accept?

More like one spike of power, after which came the SwSh with no feats worth of note

I was referring to the 2-A upgrades, which opened the door to these upgrades in the first place. That and Necrozma's feat being remade to 3-C, which gives more safe room for tier 3 feats as it did with tier 4 previously.

yes, it is, but just because something is missused it doesn't mean that you can't apply it EVER

Of course. But that also doesn't mean this isn't another such cause of it being misused. Because it is.

I think the problem there is that you tried to make Deoxys scale to the 3-C/High 3-A feat

Except....I didn't? You saying this already tells me you didn't quite fully understand the upgrade thread.

Deoxys was never scaled to the 3-C / High 3-A feats. And I specifically noted out that he wouldn't be scaling to them. The only thing Deoxys got out of this is the "possibly infinite speed" rating, since speed is the only thing Deoxys gets from Mega Ray in scaling.

BRUH

that is complete bullshit and you know it, you can't just shut down the opposition because of another thing would have to be changed

You aren't new here Overlord. I absolutely can, and absolutely will, use it to shut down the opposition because that is how this site works with this. Anything put on the pages is what we use, because that is the accepted consensus for a character or verse.

And as of now, we don't accept Deoxys scaling to Mega Ray's tier. So until you can get that changed, you cannot use it as some kind of basis to counter against another upgrade here.

the other thing is just changed too


Deoxys blocked an hyperbeam and even dragon ascent for a bit, also it got one shot in the manga

You said what I already said on the latter. Deoxys was one shotted in the manga. Thus, he doesn't scale to the tier.

And Deoxys blocked hyper beam using parts of the meteor and blocked Dragon Ascent with forcefields. Nothing more than 5-A forcefields at best you can get from that.

you can't just ignore it

I can because that's the consensus we went with for this too. The primals are much more on the level of base Ray than they are on Mega Ray's paygrade, and again, I even brought this up prior before and this was addressed the exact same way.

So unless you pull a miracle and get it accepted in a CRT first, it's going nowhere.

You mean beside the fact it used it's strongest move to do it ? or the fact M-Ray activelly dodged through the entire fight ?

If dodging ever meant a thing like your trying to make it sound like, get ready to downgrade half of this site. And using it's strongest move that cleared through it like butter is not a counter argument.

Needing a form, or move, to something does not automatically mean that said form/move struggles against what it's used for.

also, if you count SPMD in, then you gotta aknowlage how Mega-Ray, Mega-Mewtwo and Deoxys needed to work togheter to block the Earth, which would put them at planetary

You mean something that they were doing against Dark Matter, a 4-A and arguably even Low 2-C being?

you need to prove the positive, you have to show they are casual

And the positive was already done here. For Reshiram, Rayquaza, Xerneas etc. So no, our job is done. You need to provide something that says it isn't causal now.

because it litterally doesn't change anything

Great explanation on why it doesn't...

litterally the whole serie's scaling relies on Outliers or else everyone would scale to everyone

Again, you aren't new here. Otherwise you would've known, or remembered, that everyone scaling to each other is what we're already doing for these legendaries.

And how nice, we're shifting back to the "Outlier!" claim despite not even using it in the correct way.

Different media, you can't assume it's the same.

Said media is accepted here for this site, so yes I can. Especially when the said material is the closest thing to being an exact replica of the games.

50% of the body =/= 50% of the power

Literally what? Thats utter nonsense.

litterally the same arguments you said could upgrade all legendaries to 2-B via scaling to the Creation Trio, but with more evidence backing it up

Except, no, they literally aren't? A bunch of random, out of nowhere instances of shit scaling vs instances of scaling that's been contextually built up across medias and is reinforced by said evidence of fighting?

Amazing how you think this is even remotely the same thing.

not caring about the upgrades =/= being against them, so it doesn't matter

Wonderful how you just love to ignore the main meaning behind points. I clearly put this in to say that even someone who opposed the upgrades and didn't care for them agrees with the majority that outlier arguments are overused to death and our site has a very serious problem with how they are applied.

 

[JooCipher]

actually just Deoxys' natural regeneration
yes, but not to a cosmic level of difference
unless you want to say the meteor was 3-C, it was Deozys doing stuff
it overpowered it with it's strongest attack

still, rayquaza ripped off a good chunk of deoxys in a single blow
yes, deoxys just blocked an attack with some debries, which no big deal, anyone with basic tk can do that just fine
and it doesn't matter if dragon ascent is rayquaza's trongest attack, that doesn't change anything at all

 

[Chariot190]

Deoxys can keep up with and block attacks from Mega-Ray

Which is why an Ascent unironically probably killed it (It's brain got sent to the ******* shadow realm, if it lived, it's barely and we haven't seen it since), tore through it's defense form like paper (a defense form forcefield was shattered by it, aka Deoxys' most defensive failed to stop it for beyond like, a second or two), popped an attack form psycho boost (Deoxys' strongest attack in its strongest form) like it was nothing with Rayquaza not even getting a scratch from it?

Deoxys is basically equal with base, given the movie, numerous other fights between them and even as recent as a quick bout in the SM anime, but he's definitely not Mega Fug tier.

 

[Ionliosite]

I actually agree with Saikou and Everything. Necrozma's feat isn't an outlier for Necrozma, since it's his only feat, he can't be anything else but this. 50% Zygarde having a short match with Ultra Necrozma being used to scale half of the legendary Pokémon to Tier 3, on the other hand, is a clear outlier.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I actually agree with Saikou and Everything. Necrozma's feat isn't an outlier for Necrozma, since it's his only feat, he can't be anything else but this. 50% Zygarde having a short match with Ultra Necrozma being used to scale half of the legendary Pokémon to Tier 3, on the other hand, is a clear outlier.

Already countered as all the tier 5 feats are casual as hell for them, so not an issue with them being tier 3.

So invent a new excuse if you're really against it.

 

[Ionliosite]

Already countered as all the tier 5 feats are casual as hell for them

This is itself objectively incorrect, and completely ignores the context of like half of those feats.

 

[StrymULTRA]

This is itself objectively incorrect, and completely ignores the context of like half of those feats.

Reshiram doing tier 6 feats from literally just standing? Mega Rayquaza destroying with 0 effort Deoxys and the Primals? Xerneas' High 6-A feat done with some of its energy drained while it was even unconsious? How are they out of context?

 

[StrymULTRA]

@Ionliosite you're so goddamn hilarious about talking about missing context while you're ignoring the one behind Zygarde vs Necrozma tho :x

Edit: I'm talking about these 2 scans

This alone makes Xerneas and Yveltal threats equal to the Ultra Beasts. You wanted more feats/statement/context of them being comparable to tier 3s, and I gave them, plus all the tier 5 feats being extremely casual just supports this.

EDIT 2: There are also no anti feats/context against them being tier 3 either, and Mega Ray fighting Deoxys was already counted as an one-sided stomp in favor of the former, so yeah, them having issues with tier 5 stuff simply doesen't exist.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Yeah no. I was and still am against the High 3-A upgrades and I still think outlier is the most overused term in all of vsbw.

******* same.

 

[Schnee_One]

Bump I guess

 

[Waka1979]

Bump I guess

y tho

 

[StrymULTRA]

Thread was already countered to death already smh