Pokemon Discussion Thread - Red & Blue arc

[Sniper670]

No? Giant powers are not on all the plates.

And yeah, which is why I mentioned Essense lies deeper than mind, body and soul. Literally breaking those physical plates won't do anything, as we know, Original One is abstract and the plates seem physical

But yes, from the way the plates are described, it does look like destroying the abstract Essense will indeed remove all related powers, as the essense is basically the core from which all powers are connected to.

Long story short, Arceus holds the fundamental essence of the multiverse and its either information or concept, since essence manipulation was on the wiki but it kept flip flopping between those 2.

 

[Faron25]

No? Giant powers are not on all the plates.

What do you mean? All the plates are infused with the Giants' power. The only one that is unclear is the blank plate (normal type), since we don't know if there was a normal type Giant, or if the Original One was initially the normal type Giant. But in any case, even the power in the blank plate come from a Giant.

And yeah, which is why I mentioned Essense lies deeper than mind, body and soul. Literally breaking those physical plates won't do anything, as we know, Original One is abstract and the plates seem physical

But yes, from the way the plates are described, it does look like destroying the abstract Essense will indeed remove all related powers, as the essense is basically the core from which all powers are connected to.

Long story short, Arceus holds the fundamental essence of the multiverse and its either information or concept, since essence manipulation was on the wiki but it kept flip flopping between those 2.

What you are describing as "essence" is the power of the plates/giants that is held by the Original One. Practically they are concepts. If the Original One decide to erase the power of the Fire type that he hold, then that would mean ereasing the concept of fire itself from the entire pokémon universe (since anything is part of himself).

 

[Le'garde273]

What is "Giant" thing, does it also primordial being that also exist before reality?

 

[Sniper670]

What is "Giant" thing, does it also primordial being that also exist before reality?

The plates imply these Giants weren't part of Arceus creation but he defeated them and took their powers

As for who they are or where they come from, we may never know

 

[Sniper670]

What do you mean? All the plates are infused with the Giants' power.

Where was that even mentioned tho. I've gone through the engravings, at best it refers to one plate, as each plate has its own function

What you are describing as "essence" is the power of the plates/giants that is held by the Original One. Practically they are concepts. If the Original One decide to erase the power of the Fire type that he hold, then that would mean ereasing the concept of fire itself from the entire pokémon universe (since anything is part of himself).

Yeah. That was the point I was trying to make. The essense of the plates are conceptual.

So the giants powers being stripped down to its essence and shared across the multiverse would be conceptual creation.

So at least we know Arceus power absorption would be to a conceptual level

 

[Faron25]

Where was that even mentioned tho. I've gone through the engravings, at best it refers to one plate, as each plate has its own function

The engravings on the plates are valid for all of them. If you remember we already talked about this a while ago. So all the plates' powers come from the Giants. This is also the reason why is very likely that the Giants were 18, one for every type.

Yeah. That was the point I was trying to make. The essense of the plates are conceptual.

So the giants powers being stripped down to its essence and shared across the multiverse would be conceptual creation.

So at least we know Arceus power absorption would be to a conceptual level

Yes, they are clearly conceptual.

 

[Sniper670]

The engravings on the plates are valid for all of them. If you remember we already talked about this a while ago. So all the plates' powers come from the Giants. This is also the reason why is very likely that the Giants were 18, one for every type.

Eh, speaking as someone who's gone through it(I can't find a Japanese translator for jpn version), defeated giants powers are on one plate. Quote:
The power of defeated giants infuses this plate.
I want to believe that wasn't really the case but quote:
The powers of plates are shared amongst all Pokémon

You see them make the distinction between " this plate" , and "plates" ? So yeah, giant powers is on one plate

 

[Faron25]

Eh, speaking as someone who's gone through it(I can't find a Japanese translator for jpn version), defeated giants powers are on one plate. Quote:
The power of defeated giants infuses this plate.
I want to believe that wasn't really the case but quote:
The powers of plates are shared amongst all Pokémon

You see them make the distinction between " this plate" , and "plates" ? So yeah, giant powers is on one plate

What I'm saying is that in 4th gen the engravings where not bounded to a single plate. there where 8 texts and thery were shown in order, depending from the plate that you find, and when you found the 9th plate the texts restart from the first. So the engraving

"The power of defeated giants infuses this Plate."

can be found in any plate. This is the reason for which the wiki doesn't link the texts to a specific plate like PLA (where it has be done only because now they have added a frase for any of them). The reference "this Plate" is present only because that was the plate that you have in your hands when you find it, but in reality is referred to all of them. Here is explained better.

Since in PLA any plate has its own engraving we could say that they forgot to add the "s" in "plate" (since now is necessary).

 

[Sniper670]

What I'm saying is that in 4th gen the engravings where not bounded to a single plate. there where 8 texts and thery were shown in order, depending from the plate that you find, and when you found the 9th plate the texts restart from the first. So the engraving

"The power of defeated giants infuses this Plate."

can be found in any plate. This is the reason for which the wiki doesn't link the texts to a specific plate like PLA (where it has be done only because now they have added a frase for any of them). The reference "this Plate" is present only because that was the plate that you have in your hands when you find it, but in reality is referred to all of them. Here is explained better.

Alright

Since in PLA any plate has its own engraving we could say that they forgot to add the "s" in "plate" (since now is necessary).

That makes sense to me

 

[Sniper670]

I saw this quote :

"all creation—exists only because our minds are there to perceive it"............. And then GF attributes that to humans

I believe it has parallels to how the multiverse was really created. It's just that GF is never clear with these things. Because it follows up :
"I... What? So does the mind create the world? But isn’t it the other way around?"

I think the Hiker also made that comparison. Tho as usual it's not that clear. Although I do believe that's the intention of GF.

If indeed the multiverse is really just a manifestation of the thoughts, ideas and perceptions of llama, then the multiverse is entirely conceptual in nature....... And thats have R-F difference in addition to CM

 

[Faron25]

I saw this quote :

"all creation—exists only because our minds are there to perceive it"............. And then GF attributes that to humans

I believe it has parallels to how the multiverse was really created. It's just that GF is never clear with these things. Because it follows up :
"I... What? So does the mind create the world? But isn’t it the other way around?"

I think the Hiker also made that comparison. Tho as usual it's not that clear. Although I do believe that's the intention of GF.

If indeed the multiverse is really just a manifestation of the thoughts, ideas and perceptions of llama, then the multiverse is entirely conceptual in nature....... And thats have R-F difference in addition to CM

That quote is a phrase of Cogita in PLA when she talks about the red-chain. From what I have understood, Palkia and Dialga created the "matter", but it wasn't directly the world that we know, instead it was more something like a chaotic combination of space and time. Only with the action of the Lake Trio and the creation of the "spirit" there have been an ordinated combination of space and time which then have been fixed with the red-chain* (that practically maintains the state of order of the "matter"). So, the "spirit" gave awareness to humans and pokemon about the world, shaping it in a way that was comprehensible to them. This would explain also part of the reason why the Distortion World is so strange, since it doesn't have a red-chain and so is a world without a structure compatible with the "spirit" (that in fact shouldn't be present inside of it). All of this means that the spirit influences the form of the world shaping it (thanks to CT and LT obviously), so by extension, we could say that Arceus, being the Original Spirit could have created the entire universe with his awareness. This is a little of a stretch anyway and, moreover, only a personal interpretation of the story. They left it with too much "mystery" to give a definitive statement.

* This is also the reason for which, in the ending of PLA the sky is red: what we see is the broken red-chain (with some hexagons in the sky absent since it is broken) that is no more capable to maintain stable the structure of the universe in a way compatible with humans and pokémon. And that is also the reason for which we need a new red-chain (bind a second time Space and Time, namely capture Dialga and Palkia using the red-chain).

 

[Sniper670]

Huh..... I never interpreted it like that. But you're right about the fact that theres too much mystery, and damn they're slow in revealing things

Thinking about it, the world as a perception kinda goes against him actively creating an avatar from his body.

 

[Faron25]

Thinking about it, the world as a perception kinda goes against him actively creating an avatar from his body.

Why? He could have simply created the base of the existence of the universe and then leaved the rest of the work to CT and LT. Anyway I think that a possible contraddiction could be the existence of the Giants, since they should be completely separated beings from Arceus. But the rest of the interpretation remains "valid".

 

[Ego]

Ok so anyways like I was saying


I want Arceus to have transformation In it's profile just like ditto and mew

 

[Sniper670]

Why? He could have simply created the base of the existence of the universe and then leaved the rest of the work to CT and LT.

Goes against "Perception" unfortunately. It's like GF just sucks with lore. How the heck can you imply both? It's how they keep saying Arceus created the world but in actuality its the CT

Anyway I think that a possible contraddiction could be the existence of the Giants, since they should be completely separated beings from Arceus.

I don't even know where to place these creatures. On the plates, Llama made sure to seperate them from Pokémon and humans, but nowhere in the creation story was there possibility for Llama to have fought some giants. And all their implications mean llama was the one and only.

Again, GF implying two things. I won't be surprised if GF threw these all in without thinking too much about it

But the rest of the interpretation remains "valid".

Alright

 

[Sniper670]

I want Arceus to have transformation In it's profile just like ditto and mew

What stops you from simply linking mew transformation to Llama in a match. Whether it's on his profile or not, you can still use it

The reason I added those to the crt was because there's no justification for fate manip on Jirachi's profile and I want madness manip type 3 to replace type 2, which only works on dynamax

 

[Executor_N0]

Goes against "Perception" unfortunately. It's like GF just sucks with lore. How the heck can you imply both? It's how they keep saying Arceus created the world but in actuality its the CT

The CT are Arceus' bunshins/aspects, what they do can be attributed to the Heart, because they are just independent extensions that are still a part of it. It's how a lot of religious interpretations work when you have bunshins/aspects.

 

[Faron25]

Goes against "Perception" unfortunately. It's like GF just sucks with lore. How the heck can you imply both? It's how they keep saying Arceus created the world but in actuality its the CT

Well, Arceus has created the creatures that have created the world, so saying that he was the one that created everything is not wrong.

I don't even know where to place these creatures. On the plates, Llama made sure to seperate them from Pokémon and humans, but nowhere in the creation story was there possibility for Llama to have fought some giants. And all their implications mean llama was the one and only.

The Giants are very difficult to contextualize. We only know that they are separated from Arceus, so they should be from before the creation.

Again, GF implying two things. I won't be surprised if GF threw these all in without thinking too much about it

I think it's more the fact that they wanted to leave an air of mystery in the lore, but they exaggerated making it difficult to understand. It is too much elaborated to be done without reasoning.

 

[Ego]

What stops you from simply linking mew transformation to Llama in a match. Whether it's on his profile or not, you can still use it

The reason I added those to the crt was because there's no justification for fate manip on Jirachi's profile and I want madness manip type 3 to replace type 2, which only works on dynamax

People are just gonna come up with "I dOnt sEE IT iN His PrOFilE"

 

[Ego]

Also the fate manipulation came from here https://vsbattles.com/threads/jirac...SearchId=3b106cbd-eb64-4b9f-92e8-db67ce46ac24

 

[Sniper670]

The CT are Arceus' bunshins/aspects, what they do can be attributed to the Heart, because they are just independent extensions that are still a part of it.

I get it now. Although the CT are separate, they're just inner workings. All maintained by his awareness

It's how a lot of religious interpretations work when you have bunshins/aspects.

I see. I do wonder, when did humans, Pokémon and everything in the multiverse appear. It wasn't specified in the creation story.

I guess they came into existence when the CT "prayed" for matter to exist.

 

[Sniper670]

Well, Arceus has created the creatures that have created the world, so saying that he was the one that created everything is not wrong.

Hmmph

The Giants are very difficult to contextualize. We only know that they are separated from Arceus, so they should be from before the creation.

Possibly. There's also the 1000 armed llama we've never seen. Possibly it's True Form

I think it's more the fact that they wanted to leave an air of mystery in the lore, but they exaggerated making it difficult to understand. It is too much elaborated to be done without reasoning.

Maybe you're right? But many of the mystery surrounding Pokémon were revealed eventually, so who knows?

 

[Sniper670]

People are just gonna come up with "I dOnt sEE IT iN His PrOFilE"

You really want to NLF this thing into oblivion don't you?

I'm not sure whether you can add stuff when the crt is drawing to a close. It was hard enough to gather input

Just tell them "He upscales from Ditto". Who doesn't know Ditto?

 

[Sniper670]

Also the fate manipulation came from here https://vsbattles.com/threads/jirac...SearchId=3b106cbd-eb64-4b9f-92e8-db67ce46ac24

Yeah.

 

[Sniper670]

The CRT will most likely be accepted.

TD1(Order/Existence, Chaos/Nonexistence) and Nonexistent physiology type 2, Aspect Type 1, 2, 3 and 5

Transcends and exists beyond the duality of the Pokéverse, which represents Order/Existence and Chaos/Nonexistence respectively.

Acausality type 5. He exists independently of and transcends the rules/laws of time and space(the regular Pokémon world) and irregular distortion world(where those rules change). Which includes the laws of cause and effect.


Good?

 

[Le'garde273]

The CRT will most likely be accepted.

TD1(Order/Existence, Chaos/Nonexistence) and Nonexistent physiology type 2, Aspect Type 1, 2, 3 and 5

Transcends and exists beyond the duality of the Pokéverse, which represents Order/Existence and Chaos/Nonexistence respectively.

Acausality type 5. He exists independently of and transcends the rules/laws of time and space(the regular Pokémon world) and irregular distortion world(where those rules change). Which includes the laws of cause and effect.


Good?

Seriously?

 

[Sniper670]

Seriously?

Yup

 

[Sniper670]

Sometimes I do wish all Pokémon translations were canon. Theoretically llama could stack the layers of hax on top of each other infinitely

 

[Zeifyl]

Sometimes I do wish all Pokémon translations were canon. Theoretically llama could stack the layers of hax on top of each other infinitely

IIRC, at least the Pokedex has all translations being canon, as of BDSP. Don't see how what you posted would cause infinite-layered hax to be possible though.

 

[Sniper670]

IIRC, at least the Pokedex has all translations being canon, as of BDSP.

Yes. I've been looking for that video. Can't find it tho

Don't see how what you posted would cause infinite-layered hax to be possible though.

It's already established that Pokémon hax can bypass another, which will then be bypassed by the next, etc

Now Take the already layered hax llama got, and keep offsetting that with another hax, that bypasses it infinitely

 

[Zeifyl]

Yes. I've been looking for that video. Can't find it tho

It's already established that Pokémon hax can bypass another, which will then be bypassed by the next, etc

Now Take the already layered hax llama got, and keep offsetting that with another hax, that bypasses it infinitely

Don't see any implication of that in that text.

 

[Sniper670]

Uhh.... Sure

 

[Sniper670]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/td-question.138456/#post-4866452

 

[Sniper670]

Anyway, Arceus lore keeps intriguing me. And the more I read Executor_N0 blog(bless that guy) , the more I understand what it truly means

Nonduality is a philosophy, which says that there is just One Eternal Spirit in existence, and that everything in the Universe is an inseparable part of it.

Let's fact check

Nonduality is a philosophy, which says that there is just One Eternal Spirit in existence, and that everything in the Universe is an inseparable part of it. At the same time, nonduality also says that the world is not real. From the nondual view, the world but is an illusion created by the mind and the senses.

I don't know whether the wiki takes philosophy into account but Pokémon does follows both Subjective Idealism and Objective Idealism

Subjective Idealism in that the multiverse exists in Llama's mind, as Llama is basically a vast Consciousness(Heart). So yes, the multiverse exists so long as that consciousness, that is Arceus, the original Heart, is aware that the multiverse is there.

It's the same parallels the Hiker drew with the creation story. And Cogita repeated the same thing in PLA, but in a more elaborate way. From Hiker:

Humans(Objective Idealism) : Spirit came to be, and from that followed an awareness about the world.

Then the Hiker mentions that this interpretation will give us an idea about how our world came to be.

So whatever the humans does through the heart, Llama does. The difference is the Llama is independent of their thoughts(Objective Idealism) , but they depend on Arceus awareness to exist(Subjective Idealism). So basically, the world is composed entirely of complex ideas, thoughts and perceptions materialized through his Consciousness and dependent on that consciousness

Let's take Cogita's statement and dissect it a little.

The multiverse Exists because there is a "Heart". Creation only exists because they're aware it's there. The same thing Hiker mentioned. The spirit is what follows awareness about the multiverse, without the heart in people, creation won't "exist" because they won't be aware it exists . And he mentioned that interpretation is the same when compared to Llama. Except Llama is the original heart and the multiverse will disappear if his awareness is drawn away from it

The Spirit is what follows the awareness about the world. Without the human Heart, the world will still exist because llama is independent of their mind( Objective Idealism), without Original Heart, the multiverse will not exist, because all creation is in that mind(Subjective idealism).

So yes, Cogita's statement can be attributed to Llama. The multiverse exists only because Llama is aware it exists. Without his being aware it exists it will be no more.

I'm not making any CRT. Just something interesting I discovered dissecting Executor_N0 blog and PLA. What are your thoughts?

 

[Sniper670]

So now that Ash is officially going to make an appearance in Masters, is that going to mess up with the mainline characters scaling ? His plot armor follows him everywhere

 

[Zeifyl]

So now that Ash is officially going to make an appearance in Masters, is that going to mess up with the mainline characters scaling ? His plot armor follows him everywhere

What plot armor? Dude's got the biggest losing streak in the franchise!
Also, he has died, like... Six? Times.

 

[Daddybrawl]

The same plot armor that lets him do things like Thunder Armor or avoid Z-Moves with Electroweb
The man may lose 95% of the time, but when he puts up a fight, it’s usually bull

 

[Zeifyl]

The same plot armor that lets him do things like Thunder Armor or avoid Z-Moves with Electroweb
The man may lose 95% of the time, but when he puts up a fight, it’s usually bull

Fair, fair.

 

[Sniper670]

Llama's profile before the end of the year

Transduality Type 2 and Nonexistence Physiology Nature Type 2 aspect type 1 and 3 and 5

Before creation was a state of NonDuality. It was Chaos where everything was One, devoid of all dichotomy. Arceus is a representation of that Concept, the Original One.
Lacks a soul as it is just a NonDual mind. Is independent of the plates which holds the essence of All Creation, with even its Avatar being a default normal type.

Original Spirit is simply an Unconscious Mind (心, Kokoro), where everything resides, with the creation of the multiverse being likened to how humans became aware that it exists. Being more elaborated on here

Conceptual Manipulation Type 1. Creation is entirely conceptual in nature, as it's composed of the thoughts, ideas, perceptions and awareness of its Creator and relies on it. With everything existing in its consciousness

Just like all Pokémon and Humans dream reality when they sleep

Conceptual Manipulation Type 2. The essence within all the plates, which defines the entire multiverse at a fundamental level, including even the soul and mind, being the reason behind Typings and holds infinte powers each, and being the source of all powers that had, or exists or will exist in the verse are merely pieces of himself

 

[Ego]

Llama's profile before the end of the year

Transduality Type 2 and Nonexistence Physiology Nature Type 2 aspect type 1 and 3 and 5

Before creation was a state of NonDuality. It was Chaos where everything was One, devoid of all dichotomy. Arceus is a representation of that Concept, the Original One.
Lacks a soul as it is just a NonDual mind. Is independent of the plates which holds the essence of All Creation, with even its Avatar being a default normal type.

Original Spirit is simply an Unconscious Mind (心, Kokoro), where everything resides, with the creation of the multiverse being likened to how humans became aware that it exists. Being more elaborated on here

Conceptual Manipulation Type 1. Creation is entirely conceptual in nature, as it's composed of the thoughts, ideas, perceptions and awareness of its Creator and relies on it. With everything existing in its consciousness

Just like all Pokémon and Humans dream reality when they sleep

Conceptual Manipulation Type 2. The essence within all the plates, which defines the entire multiverse at a fundamental level, including even the soul and mind, being the reason behind Typings and holds infinte powers each, and being the source of all powers that had, or exists or will exist in the verse are merely pieces of himself

This sucks lol