- 17,220
- 12,658
oh i never did find that feat, it is probably somewhere...i need to reach that part of the story to read it. Btw that is a High 6-C feat that is 6-C when divided among pokemonthis
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oh i never did find that feat, it is probably somewhere...i need to reach that part of the story to read it. Btw that is a High 6-C feat that is 6-C when divided among pokemonthis
Showi found its mention in the pokemon nerf thread where people were discussing what to replace High 6-C with
Sendi found its mention in the pokemon nerf thread where people were discussing what to replace High 6-C with
this will definitely need a revisit and a recalc.
I will be the judge of thatThat calc is trash and useless, it assumes 1 floor in the battle tower is 262 metres and compared it to the fake kyogre, but you can compare it to Pikachu here
Its also done by 12 Pokemon that are amped if they combine their strengths.
Silver's Feraligatr contributed to it and it can block and prevent an attack from Lugia and in a later chapter can affect Giratina with Hydro Pump
The anime is canon to the manga and it coming out earlier don't matterI will be the judge of that
using an anime statement for the manga which came out earlier is wrong
irrelevant and an outlier unless you suggest that Basically every legendary is 2-A
wrong. The anime has manga adaptations completely unrelated to the pokemon adventures manga.The anime is canon to the manga and it coming out earlier don't matter
you say after you mention it fighting Lugia and Giratina.Feraligatr has no anti feats and it wouldn't make every legendary 2-A, almost none scale to them
You can't tell the difference between trained and untrained PokemonWhat if the manga authors(and that awful anime) actually believe normal mons can fight Legendaries....
These "outliers" have happened so many times............ Are they really outliers?
These authors don't seem to be able to tell the difference between legendary Pokémon and non legendary
How does that make it non canon?wrong. The anime has manga adaptations completely unrelated to the pokemon adventures manga.
you say after you mention it fighting Lugia and Giratina.
in every possible way. The only link between them is that they're both based on the games. That's it. They are 100% not canon to each other.How does that make it non canon?
they struggled against it in that fight and the fact that Fera had to block the attack in the first place means it needed to block it, suggesting it can indeed take damage from it.Lugia isn't stronger than the Feraligatr and when they fought, it was when Croconaw first evolved
Why is it that you use manga feats to scale to game and anime characters? You do that for the necrozma feat and even scaled anime characters to the anime featin every possible way. The only link between them is that they're both based on the games. That's it. They are 100% not canon to each other.
they struggled against it in that fight and the fact that Fera had to block the attack in the first place means it needed to block it, suggesting it can indeed take damage from it.
Oh and i did read that part, just read it in fact. They had a hard time against it despite every starter being approximately equal to each other (the scan alone suggests that already). Later in the final battle Gold struggled against the masked man with lugia and ho-oh and it took the might of the three legendary dogs used by gym leaders and boosted with items, one of whom (Suicune) was able to fight Crystal's entire team at one point (her team was generally superior or comparable to her meganium even at that point as she only recently acquired the chikorita). Basically none of that makes sense in scaling and so we cannot use those arguments due to outliers.
Because we use species profiles and the feats are consistent across the series and otherwise we'd need llike 4 profiles for each bit of media.Why is it that you use manga feats to scale to game and anime characters? You do that for the necrozma feat and even scaled anime characters to the anime feat
How many times do we have to teach you this lesson old man? We don't use the hoopa movie for legendary scaling since it would make everyone and their grandmother 2-A.Also, Lugia, Ho-Oh, the beast and bird trio have no anti feats to put them below the creation trio anyways. Lugia scales above Hoopa who damage zekrom and reshiram, Raikou gave a lot of power to gold's pichu which used most of that to beat Pryce's swinub, who one shot Dialga
Yeah we use species profiles because we treat Pokemon as the same throughout the different media, and I meant to say scale anime characters to the mangaBecause we use species profiles and the feats are consistent across the series and otherwise we'd need llike 4 profiles for each bit of media.
Also "scaled anime characters to the anime feat" wut?
Anyways, using consistent feats throughout the series to make a certain species a certain tier isn't the same as saying that the anime is canon to the manga. They're not. They're simply not. We simply take what is consistent with the games from there and use it. Saying that attacking together makes the attack way stronger in one anime clearly =/= it being the same in a manga that has implemented game mechanics (levels, hp, stats ect.).
"We don't use" is just appeal to popularity and is just your problem. And what contradicts rayquaza or the bird trio or kyurem from scaling to the Creation Trio? Send scans of anti featsHow many times do we have to teach you this lesson old man? We don't use the hoopa movie for legendary scaling since it would make everyone and their grandmother 2-A.
Also when the hell did swinub one shot dialga? Scans or no shot.
And the mangaka was happy putting that inPryce with armour and his swinub took no damage from a Roar of Time, and his Swinub off screen knocked Dialga down
This does not contradict any lore or scaling, you have these very weird dogmatic views that legendaries cannot be defeated no matter whatAnd the mangaka was happy putting that in
Wtf is up with this franchise. They do not care at all about lore or scaling.
A trained swinubYou're telling me a ******* swinub can put Dialga down. And that's ok
Y'know, this franchise as a whole is full of crap. They won't obey the lore, nor common sense, no any proper scaling. They do whatever they want, whenever, and leave the fans trying to make sense of everything
One of the worst franchises out there and it's only there because of popularity. Non of their materials is ever up to par, even S/V is decades behind
Digimon is far better than this
I'm out of here. I think I've had enough of trying to defend anything here with pisses and outliers while the company try their very best to make the worst out of the worst
Pokémon Company can do better. I'll go find a better franchise that makes sense and have very logical scaling. Goodbye and Good luck
Well, trained or not a Swinub remains a Swinub. It doesn't make any sense that he could beat a legendary like Dialga, it shouldn't be capable to beat almost any legendary at all (maybe Shaymin?). Anyway, similar inconsistencies are inevitable due to having sources of material from a lot of external authors with manga, anime, movies, third party games, etc. Maybe would be better to separate the main games from all the other things, but it's clearly difficult to do at this point.A trained swinub
*impossibleMaybe would be better to separate the main games from all the other things, but it's clearly difficult to do at this point.
Hahaha, yes, that would be "a little" too much.*impossible
I ain't making 200-300 extra profiles man
Why would it not be capable of beating almost any legendary? Its not a normal Swinub, that's your headcanon, and it perfectly makes sense for it to defeat a legendary, things like this have happened a lot:Well, trained or not a Swinub remains a Swinub. It doesn't make any sense that he could beat a legendary like Dialga, it shouldn't be capable to beat almost any legendary at all (maybe Shaymin?). Anyway, similar inconsistencies are inevitable due to having sources of material from a lot of external authors with manga, anime, movies, third party games, etc. Maybe would be better to separate the main games from all the other things, but it's clearly difficult to do at this point.
It should be At least 4-C | At least 4-C | At least 3-C possibly Low 2-CBut these are the stats of an average 3-stage pokemon in the case that we suddenly decided to split all media.
Games:
At most Low 7-B | At least Low 7-B | High 7-A
Anime:
High 7-C | At least High 7-C | 7-A
Manga:
??? | 7-B | High 7-A
PMD:
Unknown, up to 7-A
I will proceed to ignore any of this, not to mention moving the sun and moon (which tbh has shaky evidence at best) with a non-attacking move is gonna be at best 4-C with environmental destructionIt should be At least 4-C | At least 4-C | At least 3-C possibly Low 2-C
because of morning sun, gothitelle and the low 2-C feats I said
Well, moves like Hyperbeam use up so much energy they have to recharge, so they use less energy to move the sun or moonI will proceed to ignore any of this, not to mention moving the sun and moon (which tbh has shaky evidence at best) with a non-attacking move is gonna be at best 4-C with environmental destruction
I didn't said that there is no pokemon at all that can be comparable in power with a legendary. I also made a possible matchup, for a particularly well trained Swinub. Even all the examples that you posted are only from anime and movies (even because in the main games a direct battle between other trainers or pokemon and legendaries almost never happen) and they are nearly all with final stage pokémon or even pseudo-legendaries, not a simple first stage Swinub, and not versus one of the stronger pokemon in the verse like Dialga.Why would it not be capable of beating almost any legendary? Its not a normal Swinub, that's your headcanon, and it perfectly makes sense for it to defeat a legendary, things like this have happened a lot:
Articuno, Zapdos and Moltres
Rocket Trio's Wobuffet reflects Articuno's Ice Beam, though Wobuffet is damaged
A battle frontier Articuno is knocked back by Ash's Charizard's Dragon Breath
A battle frontier Articuno is KO'd by Ash's Charizard's Seismic Toss
This Articuno's Ice Beam was overpowered by Ash's Charizard's Flamethrower
Zapdos gets sent flying far away by Ash's Hawlucha's High Jump Kick, even though Zapdos resists it
Zapdos is one shot by Ash's Noivern's Boomburst
Ash's Charizard's Flamethrower clashed with Moltres', they were almost on par with each other
A trained Salamence clashes equally with Moltres' Flamethrower, and then tanks its attack
Entei, Raikou and Suicune
They are sent flying by a trained Zoroark's Night Daze
Raikou is badly harmed by Steelix's Dig
Latios and Latias
Latios is damaged by Annie and Oakley's Espeon's Swift
Their Ariados can harm Latios and Latias
Ash's Pikachu one shots Latias after Aerodactyl grabs it and Latias can't escape
Latias takes damage from their Espeon's Psychic
Latias is one shotted by their Espeon's Psybeam
Tobias' Latios is defeated by Pikachu's Volt Tackle
Nurse Joy's Latias is sent flying by a trained Rhyperior's Megahorn
Regirock, Registeel and Regice
Paul's Nidoking damages Brandon's Registeel with Earth Power
Paul's Nidoking knocks back and damages Brandon's Registeel with Double Kick
Ash's Torkoal harms Brandon's Registeel and forces it to guard itself
Ash's Torkoal used Flamethrower to clash explosively with Registeel's Zap Cannon
Ash's Torkoal used Heat Wave to push back Registeel's Sandstorm, which could push back Torkoal's Flamethrower
Ash's Torkoal jumped on Registeel, toppling it
Torkoal leaped off a wall, jumping on to Registeel and pushing it back
Ash's Torkoal used the power of Registeel's Sandstorm to spin Registeel, damaging it badly after that, though Torkoal is KOd after getting hit by Zap Cannon
Durability
Paul's Nidoking shakes off Brandon's Registeel's Flash Cannon
Torkoal with Iron Defense tanked a Zap Cannon from Brandon's Registeel
Torkoal leaped off a wall after being tossed by Registeel
Groudon and Kyogre
Kyogre amped by the Red Orb fired a Hyperbeam that Lance's Gyarados held back for a few moments with his own Hyperbeam, before getting overpowered
Steven's Mega Metagross uses Flash Cannon which overpowers and knocks Primal Kyogre far back even though it resists the attack
Durability
Steven's Mega Metagross doesn't take too much damage from Primal Kyogre's Ice Beam
Steven's Mega Metagross takes a swipe from Primal Kyogre and was sent flying, though he wasn't that harmed
Heatran
Team Galactic's Toxicroak was able to damage it enough for it to be caught in a Dusk Ball with Dig - Pokemon: The Hallowed God Arceus
Pikachu effortlessly slices threads that base Heatran couldn't even break out of - Pokemon: The Hallowed God Arceus
Reshiram
Ash's Pikachu does a lot of damage to Reshiram with Thunderbolt
Mewtwo (Movie 16)
Dirk's Escavalier sent Mewtwo flying back and harmed it with Energy Ball
Landorus, Thundurus, Tornados
Iris' Dragonite, Cynthia's Garchomp and a trainer's Golurk pushed back Therian formes of Thundurus, Landorus and Tornadus respectively
Therian Landorus is knocked back from Iris' Dragonite's Ice Beam, though it doesn't take much damage
Durability
Iris' Dragonite took an Iron Tail from Therian Landorus without much damage
Cynthia's Garchomp likely tanked some of Therian Landorus' Stone Edge, as we see some smoke. Landorus' stone edge only explodes with smoke when it hits the enemy
Meloetta
Ash's Krookodile shook off a Hyper Voice from Pirouette Meloetta
Genesect
Pikachu's Thunderbolt equally matches Shiny Genesect's Signal Beam
Pikachu briefly holds back 2 Signal Beams from 2 Genesects before being overpowered
Yveltal
Ash's Pikachu clashes almost evenly with Oblivion Wing using Thunderbolt
This happens again, but Thunderbolt briefly overpowers Oblivion Wing, though Oblivion Wing quickly overpowers Thunderbolt instead
Pikachu's Thunderbolt clashes pretty evenly with Yveltal's Hyper Beam which can shatter Diancie's diamond
A trainer's Chesnaught clashes explosively with Yveltal's Hyper Beam with Pin Missile. As shown above, Yveltal's Hyperbeam doesn't explode on contact with everything, so this is actually a feat
There is a direct battle against legendaries in almost every game. Its possible to either defeat or catch them canonically.I didn't said that there is no pokemon at all that can be comparable in power with a legendary. I also made a possible matchup, for a particularly well trained Swinub. Even all the examples that you posted are only from anime and movies (even because in the main games a direct battle between other trainers or pokemon and legendaries almost never happen) and they are nearly all with final stage pokémon or even pseudo-legendaries, not a simple first stage Swinub, and not versus one of the stronger pokemon in the verse like Dialga.
I meant direct battles that don't involve the player. Even N has been simply accepted by Zekrom/Reshiram, he didn't beat him. In all the game the legendary pokemon have been controlled in some way by the evil teams, but beaten and captured only by the player.There is a direct battle against legendaries in almost every game. Its possible to either defeat or catch them canonically.
A first stage pokemon is canonically a lot weaker than a complete evolved one. It's the very concept of evolution on which the games are based. Only single stage pokemon are out of this rule, since they are already in their final form. And, I repeat, no one has said that is impossible. There are pokemon that are capable to beat the weaker legendaries (after all the main requirement to be legendary or mythical is the rarity or uniqueness, the power is more a consequence), but overall they are weaker than them. However, an extreme case like Swinub versus Dialga is in a completely different league. Is utterly absurd. If you are really convinced that Swinub has even the slightest possibility to win against Dialga then, make a vs thread. But I'm pretty sure that you already know what will happen.Also, them not being first stage Pokemon is completely irrelevant. My point was that saying non legendaries shouldn't be able to beat legendaries is baseless. You randomly claimed "this can't happen" for no reason which is very strange and is just appeal to incredulity
Why does only the player doing that even matter here?I meant direct battles that don't involve the player. Even N has been simply accepted by Zekrom/Reshiram, he didn't beat him. In all the game the legendary pokemon have been controlled in some way by the evil teams, but beaten and captured only by the player.
A first stage pokemon is canonically a lot weaker than a complete evolved one. It's the very concept of evolution on which the games are based. Only single stage pokemon are out of this rule, since they are already in their final form. And, I repeat, no one has said that is impossible. There are pokemon that are capable to beat the weaker legendaries (after all the main requirement to be legendary or mythical is the rarity or uniqueness, the power is more a consequence), but overall they are weaker than them. However, an extreme case like Swinub versus Dialga is in a completely different league. Is utterly absurd. If you are really convinced that Swinub has even the slightest possibility to win against Dialga then, make a vs thread. But I'm pretty sure that you already know what will happen.
A first stage pokemon is canonically a lot weaker than a complete evolved one.
However, an extreme case like Swinub versus Dialga is in a completely different league. Is utterly absurd.
If you are really convinced that Swinub has even the slightest possibility to win against Dialga then, make a vs thread. But I'm pretty sure that you already know what will happen.
I was thinking you were referring also to the fact that the player beat legendaries, which is true but also due to the simple fact that it is a game and we are the player. My response regarding N and evil teams anyway is not related to this.Why does only the player doing that even matter here?
Yes, is generally true, but it's more a fact of combat experience (there is no power up in being a trained pokémon, the stats are the same) and anyway after a pokemon reaches a certain level it evolves. At equal level, an evolved pokémon is stronger.A trained Pokemon is canonically stronger than a wild one
I don't play at mystery dungeon from red and blue squads, to which scene of which game are you referring? Anyway, it would be a case analogous to Swinub. This is what happens when too many external authors work on the same characters. You could consider their feats valid for their respective stories (which would be anyway still debatable), but certainly not for the main games.This is appeal to incredulity. "Its absurd" isn't a real argument, just you not wanting to believe it. There are literal baby Pokemon that have defeated legendaries like Giratina, though mystery dungeon wild pokemon are stronger than usual.
Well, Ash is literally the embodiment of inconsistencies, equal for his pokemon. There is no way to consider valid any feat from him. And why Ultra Beats are over the Creation Trio? Anyway, if you really want to consider Pickachu stronger than them, what does it make of Trip's Snivy and all the other myriad of pokémon that won over Pikachu during all the seasons of the series? And the trainers or wild pokémon that have beaten them before? Following your logic they would be all around 2-A. If that was true then Dialga, Palkia and Girantina would have even the courage to go out of their dimension for fear of being beaten by the first Spearow that they encounter on their way.There are other first stage Pokemon in the anime that get absurdly strong like Ash's Riolu right before it evolved to Lucario, since he blocked hits from Copperajah and Ferrothorn, who can knock back Pikachu and tank blows from him, and at this point of time, Pikachu > UBs > Creation Trio
Then make a vs thread with Pryce's Swinub.I don't think a Swinub can, but I think Pryce's can since it just happened