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oh i never did find that feat, it is probably somewhere...i need to reach that part of the story to read it. Btw that is a High 6-C feat that is 6-C when divided among pokemon
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Pokemon Discussion Thread - Red & Blue arc
- Thread starter SuperKamiNappa
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this will definitely need a revisit and a recalc.
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That calc is trash and useless, it assumes 1 floor in the battle tower is 262 metres and compared it to the fake kyogre, but you can compare it to Pikachu here
Its also done by 12 Pokemon that are amped if they combine their strengths.
Silver's Feraligatr contributed to it and it can block and prevent an attack from Lugia and in a later chapter can affect Giratina with Hydro Pump
Its also done by 12 Pokemon that are amped if they combine their strengths.
Silver's Feraligatr contributed to it and it can block and prevent an attack from Lugia and in a later chapter can affect Giratina with Hydro Pump
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I will be the judge of that
using an anime statement for the manga which came out earlier is wrong
irrelevant and an outlier unless you suggest that Basically every legendary is 2-A
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The anime is canon to the manga and it coming out earlier don't matter
Feraligatr has no anti feats and it wouldn't make every legendary 2-A, almost none scale to them
Sniper670
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What if the manga authors(and that awful anime) actually believe normal mons can fight Legendaries....
These "outliers" have happened so many times............ Are they really outliers?
These authors don't seem to be able to tell the difference between legendary Pokémon and non legendary
These "outliers" have happened so many times............ Are they really outliers?
These authors don't seem to be able to tell the difference between legendary Pokémon and non legendary
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wrong. The anime has manga adaptations completely unrelated to the pokemon adventures manga.
you say after you mention it fighting Lugia and Giratina.
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You can't tell the difference between trained and untrained Pokemon
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How does that make it non canon?
Lugia isn't stronger than the Feraligatr and when they fought, it was when Croconaw first evolved
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in every possible way. The only link between them is that they're both based on the games. That's it. They are 100% not canon to each other.
they struggled against it in that fight and the fact that Fera had to block the attack in the first place means it needed to block it, suggesting it can indeed take damage from it.
Oh and i did read that part, just read it in fact. They had a hard time against it despite every starter being approximately equal to each other (the scan alone suggests that already). Later in the final battle Gold struggled against the masked man with lugia and ho-oh and it took the might of the three legendary dogs used by gym leaders and boosted with items, one of whom (Suicune) was able to fight Crystal's entire team at one point (her team was generally superior or comparable to her meganium even at that point as she only recently acquired the chikorita). Basically none of that makes sense in scaling and so we cannot use those arguments due to outliers.
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Why is it that you use manga feats to scale to game and anime characters? You do that for the necrozma feat and even scaled anime characters to the anime feat
Croconaw had to block the attack because it might have been weaker
And they had a hard time against Lugia and Ho-Oh before they evolved, they didn't fight much after that
And Suicune being stronger than someone who struggled with Lugia doesn't mean much, that's perfectly fine
Also, Lugia, Ho-Oh, the beast and bird trio have no anti feats to put them below the creation trio anyways. Lugia scales above Hoopa who damage zekrom and reshiram, Raikou gave a lot of power to gold's pichu which used most of that to beat Pryce's swinub, who one shot Dialga
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Because we use species profiles and the feats are consistent across the series and otherwise we'd need llike 4 profiles for each bit of media.
Also "scaled anime characters to the anime feat" wut?
Anyways, using consistent feats throughout the series to make a certain species a certain tier isn't the same as saying that the anime is canon to the manga. They're not. They're simply not. We simply take what is consistent with the games from there and use it. Saying that attacking together makes the attack way stronger in one anime clearly =/= it being the same in a manga that has implemented game mechanics (levels, hp, stats ect.).
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How many times do we have to teach you this lesson old man? We don't use the hoopa movie for legendary scaling since it would make everyone and their grandmother 2-A.
Also when the hell did swinub one shot dialga? Scans or no shot.
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Yeah we use species profiles because we treat Pokemon as the same throughout the different media, and I meant to say scale anime characters to the manga
What "consistent feats"? The anime has levels, hp is just stamina, and stats too. Nothing implies the manga is non canon, its just a different universe
"We don't use" is just appeal to popularity and is just your problem. And what contradicts rayquaza or the bird trio or kyurem from scaling to the Creation Trio? Send scans of anti feats
Pryce with armour and his swinub took no damage from a Roar of Time, and his Swinub off screen knocked Dialga down, but wouldn't be able to easily defeat him
Sniper670
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And the mangaka was happy putting that in
Wtf is up with this franchise. They do not care at all about lore or scaling.
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This does not contradict any lore or scaling, you have these very weird dogmatic views that legendaries cannot be defeated no matter what
Sniper670
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Y'know, this franchise as a whole is full of crap. They won't obey the lore, nor common sense, no any proper scaling. They do whatever they want, whenever, and leave the fans trying to make sense of everything
One of the worst franchises out there and it's only there because of popularity. Non of their materials is ever up to par, even S/V is decades behind
Digimon is far better than this
I'm out of here. I think I've had enough of trying to defend anything here with pisses and outliers while the company try their very best to make the worst out of the worst
Pokémon Company can do better. I'll go find a better franchise that makes sense and have very logical scaling. Goodbye and Good luck
One of the worst franchises out there and it's only there because of popularity. Non of their materials is ever up to par, even S/V is decades behind
I'm out of here. I think I've had enough of trying to defend anything here with pisses and outliers while the company try their very best to make the worst out of the worst
Pokémon Company can do better. I'll go find a better franchise that makes sense and have very logical scaling. Goodbye and Good luck
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Well, trained or not a Swinub remains a Swinub. It doesn't make any sense that he could beat a legendary like Dialga, it shouldn't be capable to beat almost any legendary at all (maybe Shaymin?). Anyway, similar inconsistencies are inevitable due to having sources of material from a lot of external authors with manga, anime, movies, third party games, etc. Maybe would be better to separate the main games from all the other things, but it's clearly difficult to do at this point.
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speedster352
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Hahaha, yes, that would be "a little" too much.
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Why would it not be capable of beating almost any legendary? Its not a normal Swinub, that's your headcanon, and it perfectly makes sense for it to defeat a legendary, things like this have happened a lot:
Articuno, Zapdos and Moltres
Rocket Trio's Wobuffet reflects Articuno's Ice Beam, though Wobuffet is damagedA battle frontier Articuno is knocked back by Ash's Charizard's Dragon Breath
A battle frontier Articuno is KO'd by Ash's Charizard's Seismic Toss
This Articuno's Ice Beam was overpowered by Ash's Charizard's Flamethrower
Zapdos gets sent flying far away by Ash's Hawlucha's High Jump Kick, even though Zapdos resists it
Zapdos is one shot by Ash's Noivern's Boomburst
Ash's Charizard's Flamethrower clashed with Moltres', they were almost on par with each other
A trained Salamence clashes equally with Moltres' Flamethrower, and then tanks its attack
Entei, Raikou and Suicune
They are sent flying by a trained Zoroark's Night Daze
Raikou is badly harmed by Steelix's Dig
Latios and Latias
Latios is damaged by Annie and Oakley's Espeon's SwiftTheir Ariados can harm Latios and Latias
Ash's Pikachu one shots Latias after Aerodactyl grabs it and Latias can't escape
Latias takes damage from their Espeon's Psychic
Latias is one shotted by their Espeon's Psybeam
Tobias' Latios is defeated by Pikachu's Volt Tackle
Nurse Joy's Latias is sent flying by a trained Rhyperior's Megahorn
Regirock, Registeel and Regice
Paul's Nidoking damages Brandon's Registeel with Earth PowerPaul's Nidoking knocks back and damages Brandon's Registeel with Double Kick
Ash's Torkoal harms Brandon's Registeel and forces it to guard itself
Ash's Torkoal used Flamethrower to clash explosively with Registeel's Zap Cannon
Ash's Torkoal used Heat Wave to push back Registeel's Sandstorm, which could push back Torkoal's Flamethrower
Ash's Torkoal jumped on Registeel, toppling it
Torkoal leaped off a wall, jumping on to Registeel and pushing it back
Ash's Torkoal used the power of Registeel's Sandstorm to spin Registeel, damaging it badly after that, though Torkoal is KOd after getting hit by Zap Cannon
Durability
Paul's Nidoking shakes off Brandon's Registeel's Flash Cannon
Torkoal with Iron Defense tanked a Zap Cannon from Brandon's Registeel
Torkoal leaped off a wall after being tossed by Registeel
Groudon and Kyogre
Kyogre amped by the Red Orb fired a Hyperbeam that Lance's Gyarados held back for a few moments with his own Hyperbeam, before getting overpoweredSteven's Mega Metagross uses Flash Cannon which overpowers and knocks Primal Kyogre far back even though it resists the attack
Durability
Steven's Mega Metagross doesn't take too much damage from Primal Kyogre's Ice Beam
Steven's Mega Metagross takes a swipe from Primal Kyogre and was sent flying, though he wasn't that harmed
Heatran
Team Galactic's Toxicroak was able to damage it enough for it to be caught in a Dusk Ball with Dig - Pokemon: The Hallowed God Arceus
Pikachu effortlessly slices threads that base Heatran couldn't even break out of - Pokemon: The Hallowed God Arceus
Reshiram
Ash's Pikachu does a lot of damage to Reshiram with ThunderboltMewtwo (Movie 16)
Dirk's Escavalier sent Mewtwo flying back and harmed it with Energy BallLandorus, Thundurus, Tornados
Iris' Dragonite, Cynthia's Garchomp and a trainer's Golurk pushed back Therian formes of Thundurus, Landorus and Tornadus respectively
Therian Landorus is knocked back from Iris' Dragonite's Ice Beam, though it doesn't take much damage
Durability
Iris' Dragonite took an Iron Tail from Therian Landorus without much damage
Cynthia's Garchomp likely tanked some of Therian Landorus' Stone Edge, as we see some smoke. Landorus' stone edge only explodes with smoke when it hits the enemy
Meloetta
Ash's Krookodile shook off a Hyper Voice from Pirouette MeloettaGenesect
Pikachu's Thunderbolt equally matches Shiny Genesect's Signal Beam
Pikachu briefly holds back 2 Signal Beams from 2 Genesects before being overpowered
Yveltal
Ash's Pikachu clashes almost evenly with Oblivion Wing using Thunderbolt
This happens again, but Thunderbolt briefly overpowers Oblivion Wing, though Oblivion Wing quickly overpowers Thunderbolt instead
Pikachu's Thunderbolt clashes pretty evenly with Yveltal's Hyper Beam which can shatter Diancie's diamond
A trainer's Chesnaught clashes explosively with Yveltal's Hyper Beam with Pin Missile. As shown above, Yveltal's Hyperbeam doesn't explode on contact with everything, so this is actually a feat
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It should be At least 4-C | At least 4-C | At least 3-C possibly Low 2-C
because of morning sun, gothitelle and the low 2-C feats I said
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I will proceed to ignore any of this, not to mention moving the sun and moon (which tbh has shaky evidence at best) with a non-attacking move is gonna be at best 4-C with environmental destruction
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Well, moves like Hyperbeam use up so much energy they have to recharge, so they use less energy to move the sun or moon
Im ngl it looks pretty obvious its moving the sun in Stadium
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I didn't said that there is no pokemon at all that can be comparable in power with a legendary. I also made a possible matchup, for a particularly well trained Swinub. Even all the examples that you posted are only from anime and movies (even because in the main games a direct battle between other trainers or pokemon and legendaries almost never happen) and they are nearly all with final stage pokémon or even pseudo-legendaries, not a simple first stage Swinub, and not versus one of the stronger pokemon in the verse like Dialga.
Sniper670
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I'll only be working on Arceus from now. (little to no piss, and I'd drop this entirely if they pull some crap on Original One)
I'm making a crt for nep type 2 and add the madness manipulation type 3
NEP
For Nep I'll be going with the Japanese translation from Pokémon called gods blog. From that we gathered that chaos intermingled to form an egg, basically he's the realization of the primordial chaos. Then from nonexistence came existence in general. His avatars, space and time , then the concept of physical(matter) and metaphysical(mind, soul) aspect of existence was created. One Heart that reaches beyond space and time. As the plate inscription said, the original one exists is in everything
Madness Manipulation
I'll be using the Pokémon conquest scans for type 3
Ill also look through Pokémon profiles to see what useful abilities could be applied to his profile
Good?
I'm making a crt for nep type 2 and add the madness manipulation type 3
NEP
For Nep I'll be going with the Japanese translation from Pokémon called gods blog. From that we gathered that chaos intermingled to form an egg, basically he's the realization of the primordial chaos. Then from nonexistence came existence in general. His avatars, space and time , then the concept of physical(matter) and metaphysical(mind, soul) aspect of existence was created. One Heart that reaches beyond space and time. As the plate inscription said, the original one exists is in everything
Madness Manipulation
I'll be using the Pokémon conquest scans for type 3
Ill also look through Pokémon profiles to see what useful abilities could be applied to his profile
Good?
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There is a direct battle against legendaries in almost every game. Its possible to either defeat or catch them canonically.
Also, them not being first stage Pokemon is completely irrelevant. My point was that saying non legendaries shouldn't be able to beat legendaries is baseless. You randomly claimed "this can't happen" for no reason which is very strange and is just appeal to incredulity
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I meant direct battles that don't involve the player. Even N has been simply accepted by Zekrom/Reshiram, he didn't beat him. In all the game the legendary pokemon have been controlled in some way by the evil teams, but beaten and captured only by the player.
A first stage pokemon is canonically a lot weaker than a complete evolved one. It's the very concept of evolution on which the games are based. Only single stage pokemon are out of this rule, since they are already in their final form. And, I repeat, no one has said that is impossible. There are pokemon that are capable to beat the weaker legendaries (after all the main requirement to be legendary or mythical is the rarity or uniqueness, the power is more a consequence), but overall they are weaker than them. However, an extreme case like Swinub versus Dialga is in a completely different league. Is utterly absurd. If you are really convinced that Swinub has even the slightest possibility to win against Dialga then, make a vs thread. But I'm pretty sure that you already know what will happen.
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Why does only the player doing that even matter here?
A trained Pokemon is canonically stronger than a wild one
This is appeal to incredulity. "Its absurd" isn't a real argument, just you not wanting to believe it. There are literal baby Pokemon that have defeated legendaries like Giratina, though mystery dungeon wild pokemon are stronger than usual. There are other first stage Pokemon in the anime that get absurdly strong like Ash's Riolu right before it evolved to Lucario, since he blocked hits from Copperajah and Ferrothorn, who can knock back Pikachu and tank blows from him, and at this point of time, Pikachu > UBs > Creation Trio
I don't think a Swinub can, but I think Pryce's can since it just happened
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I was thinking you were referring also to the fact that the player beat legendaries, which is true but also due to the simple fact that it is a game and we are the player. My response regarding N and evil teams anyway is not related to this.
Yes, is generally true, but it's more a fact of combat experience (there is no power up in being a trained pokémon, the stats are the same) and anyway after a pokemon reaches a certain level it evolves. At equal level, an evolved pokémon is stronger.
I don't play at mystery dungeon from red and blue squads, to which scene of which game are you referring? Anyway, it would be a case analogous to Swinub. This is what happens when too many external authors work on the same characters. You could consider their feats valid for their respective stories (which would be anyway still debatable), but certainly not for the main games.
Well, Ash is literally the embodiment of inconsistencies, equal for his pokemon. There is no way to consider valid any feat from him. And why Ultra Beats are over the Creation Trio? Anyway, if you really want to consider Pickachu stronger than them, what does it make of Trip's Snivy and all the other myriad of pokémon that won over Pikachu during all the seasons of the series? And the trainers or wild pokémon that have beaten them before? Following your logic they would be all around 2-A. If that was true then Dialga, Palkia and Girantina would have even the courage to go out of their dimension for fear of being beaten by the first Spearow that they encounter on their way.
Then make a vs thread with Pryce's Swinub.
Sniper670
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I'll just say arguing with king is useless. It doesn't help that he's actually right about this. I'm not interested in Lower tier mons anymore(which is healthy for my mental wellbeing). Good luck
Anyway mind checking this CRT?
Anyway mind checking this CRT?
