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Pokemon Discussion Thread - Red & Blue arc

XXKINGXX69 said:
In the manga, the Creation Trio got stomped by trainers



Melmetal could have grown stronger
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Is this some poor excuse for a joke?
XXKINGXX69 said:
You also haven't proved PMD wasn't canon, other than saying there are differences, but I told you why even the games have differences
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Time gears, Dark Matter, Tree of Life. Why the heck would Arceus plant a tree in pmd to rely on because of a spinoff game.. Silly as hell when Arceus himself was going to destroy creation
XXKINGXX69 said:
This would just mean the anime plates are different, not that its non canon. Arceus has multiple plates
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Then we go with the main canon, which is the mainline games. Over there, plates aren't his life force. In fact they're always thrown away somewhere on the planet. No need for em. Just fodder fragments of his True Form
 
Zeifyl said:
It is the Pocket Monsters Series, and Mystery Dungeon is not part of that brand. It is part of Pocket Monsters, but not Pocket Monsters Series.
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Why does this matter? I gave other evidence that stuff not even part of the series you listed is canon to the games, and actual evidence that mystery dungeon is canon
 
XXKINGXX69 said:
Why does this matter? I gave other evidence that stuff not even part of the series you listed is canon to the games, and actual evidence that mystery dungeon is canon
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Because you are using Mystery Dungeon to challenge stuff that can't be argued away with parallel universes, since it involves entities at and above the level of EVERY universe. And in an argument between 『ポケットモンスター』シリーズ and not-『ポケットモンスター』シリーズ on that scale is a default win for 『ポケットモンスター』シリーズ, since 『ポケットモンスター』シリーズ is the primary canon. Even if we go by the claim that everything with the name Pokémon on it is canon, down to, and including, fanfics, and all of it said one thing about the cosmology/Gods/Existence of the Multiverse/Anything else that can't be argued away with alternate realities, while 『ポケットモンスター』シリーズ said another, 『ポケットモンスター』シリーズ would win that argument. This is the case, because you need to prove that the Anime/Manga/Spin-offs are canon, but 『ポケットモンスター』シリーズ is, by its very existence, considered canon, and anything that needs to be proven canon needs to be proven canon to 『ポケットモンスター』シリーズ. That is what's called a primary canon. Something that does not need to be proven canon. Or said another way: If 『ポケットモンスター』シリーズ wasn't canon, Pokémon as a whole wouldn't be canon to itself.
 
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XXKINGXX69 said:
Why does this matter? I gave other evidence that stuff not even part of the series you listed is canon to the games, and actual evidence that mystery dungeon is canon
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Is it? Time Gears, Dark matter, Tree of life

Show me how these three have ever been relevant or showcased in the mainline games, or any material acknowledged as canon.
 
Honestly the best would be to ignore him. Dude always tries to push his headcanons in every thread he can.
 
Zeifyl said:
Because you are using Mystery Dungeon to challenge stuff that can't be argued away with parallel universes, since it involves entities at and above the level of EVERY universe. And in an argument between 『ポケットモンスター』シリーズ and not-『ポケットモンスター』シリーズ on that scale is a default win for 『ポケットモンスター』シリーズ, since 『ポケットモンスター』シリーズ is the primary canon. Even if we go by the claim that everything with the name Pokémon on it is canon, down to, and including, fanfics, and all of it said one thing about the cosmology/Gods/Existence of the Multiverse/Anything else that can't be argued away with alternate realities, while 『ポケットモンスター』シリーズ said another, 『ポケットモンスター』シリーズ would win that argument. This is the case, because you need to prove that the Anime/Manga/Spin-offs are canon, but 『ポケットモンスター』シリーズ is, by its very existence, considered canon, and anything that needs to be proven canon needs to be proven canon to 『ポケットモンスター』シリーズ. That is what's called a primary canon. Something that does not need to be proven canon. Or said another way: If 『ポケットモンスター』シリーズ wasn't canon, Pokémon as a whole wouldn't be canon to itself.
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The anime is also not published by that company, and is still considered canon, so that whole argument is invalid

You also conveniently ignored the other stuff I showed of it being canon
 
XXKINGXX69 said:
The anime is also not published by that company, and is still considered canon, so that whole argument is invalid

You also conveniently ignored the other stuff I showed of it being canon
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The Anime is considered canon, because the first party (Gamefreak/TPC) says it's canon. And the argument isn't that Mystery Dungeon isn't canon. The argument is that it isn't a primary canon. Just like the Anime or Manga isn't primary canon. Only the Pocket Monsters Series games can be primary canon, and they can't be anything but. And in the event of contradictions, primary canon trumps everything else.

XXKINGXX69 said:
Yemma was talking about abilities for Giratina
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Oh, yeah... Upgrades for the god tiers.
 
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"Arcues is a God who Transcends All"

I tried to fact check with the nature of Arceus
1. He's conceptless..... Born from the primordial chaos. Where there was nothingness, no law, no concept. Wikipedia explanation of chaos
2. He predates the reality he made.
3. The laws and systems-everything he made after he came into being
4. Which he kinda jumbled up for the Distortion world. Which is why Giratina even got Acausality type 4. He should have Physics and Logic manipulation too but eh
6. His existence is beyond the multiverse
5. His realm is so far away from the Pokémon reality that Giratina couldnt reach it, and had to bait him with the plates(he failed of course).
His Avatar you fought, is also a lot stronger than The CT you fought, even when they supposedly assumed their true form or whatever the hell that was. . And that's only a fragment of his being

There's more than enough context to assert the credibility of that statement if you ask me
 
Yemma670 said:
"Arcues is a God who Transcends All"

I tried to fact check with the nature of Arceus
1. He's conceptless..... Born from the primordial chaos. Where there was nothingness, no law, no concept. Wikipedia explanation of chaos
2. He predates the reality he made.
3. The laws and systems-everything he made after he came into being
4. Which he kinda jumbled up for the Distortion world. Which is why Giratina even got Acausality type 4. He should have Physics and Logic manipulation too but eh
6. His existence is beyond the multiverse
5. His realm is so far away from the Pokémon reality that Giratina couldnt reach it, and had to bait him with the plates(he failed of course).
His Avatar you fought, is also a lot stronger than The CT you fought, even when they supposedly assumed their true form or whatever the hell that was. . And that's only a fragment of his being

There's more than enough context to assert the credibility of that statement if you ask me
Click to expand...
You swapped 5 and 6 there, my dude.
 
Yemma670 said:
no law, no concept.
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Is their evidence for this. It creating the concepts of Space, Time, Anti-Matter, Emtion, Willpower, and Knowledge, wouldn't quite be enough.
Yemma670 said:
Wikipedia explanation of chaos
Click to expand...
Not relevant
Yemma670 said:
3. The laws and systems-everything he made after he came into being
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That's not what the quote says. You can interpret that, but it isn't what it says.

All in all, you aren't getting Trandualility/Tier 1/Whatever from this stuff alone.
 
Everything12 said:
Is their evidence for this. It creating the concepts of Space, Time, Anti-Matter, Emtion, Willpower, and Knowledge, wouldn't quite be enough.
Click to expand...
Here's the quote:
All that was there in the beginning was a swell of chaos (混沌のうねり).
Everything12 said:
That's not what the quote says. You can interpret that, but it isn't what it says
Click to expand...
The Distortion world opposes the laws of the Pokémon reality. Which is why the laws of physics, causality and logic in general all is messed up. And guess who created the Pokémon multiverse and those laws

And guess who existed before the multiverse and those laws

And guess who was mentioned to by the senior director at GameFreak to be transcendent over everything in reality

Arceus True Self isn't even in the multiverse. Smh. And his avatar is too much for the CT.
Everything12 said:
.

All in all, you aren't getting Trandualility/Tier 1/Whatever from this stuff alone.
Click to expand...
Masuda made mention of his transcendence anyway. What I was doing was adding more context.

Unless you can prove Masuda is lying.
 
Masuda/Game Freak/whoever can say they transcend the Pokéverse, and honestly I believe them... doesn't mean it's Transduality/Tier 1/whatever.

Nothing in the last two posts you have here are good enough evidence for these things.
 
Everything12 said:
Masuda/Game Freak/whoever can say they transcend the Pokéverse, and honestly I believe them... doesn't mean it's Transduality/Tier 1/whatever.

Nothing in the last two posts you have here are good enough evidence for these things.
Click to expand...
We definitely not going for tier 1
 
Everything12 said:
Masuda/Game Freak/whoever can say they transcend the Pokéverse, and honestly I believe them... doesn't mean it's Transduality/Tier 1/whatever.
Click to expand...
Where from tier 1? That's not what I was aiming for
Everything12 said:
Nothing in the last two posts you have here are good enough evidence for these things.
Click to expand...
Well.......... But isn't the Distortion world and the Pokémon world a Duality? I dunno about you but they're clearly explained as one

Even spirit and matter. The LT and CT keep balance in the multiverse. And are also described as dual concepts in the games. Also a Duality
 
Everything12 said:
No, probably not, possibly not, maybe.
Click to expand...

Pretty sure Arceus qualifies for BDE 2, with the new BDE rules, as it is no longer tied to tier.
Type 2: Characters whose nature is defined by lacking spatiotemporal features and being superior to them in nature. These characters aren't necessarily superior to spacetime on every level, but just within the scope which they are shown. Due to transcending this spacetime they are immune to Spatial Manipulation and Time Manipulation of it. They furthermore inherit any benefits of Type 1.
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At least I am 99% sure predating, inventing, and existing beyond spacetime counts as "being superior to them in nature" (and, of course, Arceus > Dialga+Palkia+Giratina). And since spacetime exists within the Original Spirit, rather than vice versa, I assume it also lacks spatiotemporal features.

I have no strong opinion either way for the rest (Except aca5, which is a definitive no. At best it has above baseline aca4), but specifically BDE2, I see no reason why it shouldn't have.
 
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Zeifyl said:
At least I am 99% sure predating, inventing, and existing beyond spacetime counts as "being superior to them in nature" (and, of course, Arceus > Dialga+Palkia+Giratina). And since spacetime exists within the Original Spirit, rather than vice versa, I assume it also lacks spatiotemporal features.
Click to expand...
Pretty much confirms what Masuda said anyway.
Zeifyl said:
I have no strong opinion either way for the rest (Except aca5, which is a definitive no. At best it has above baseline aca4), but specifically BDE2, I see no reason why it shouldn't have.
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I mean Madoka got Aca 5 for becoming an existence which is no longer a part of the universe. Outside of time, cause and effect

Arceus true existence is not part of the multiverse, he's Omnipresent alright, but he lives far beyond it, as seen from PLA. He's outside of time , and the laws of the multiverse, which we already know has laws of cause and effect that even the Distortion world disobeys. I mean, it's not as if his Avatar can't already overturn the laws within the world if he feels like it. Because, y'know, he created those things
The Distortion world goes "no,your world's logic won't work here, because my pops(Arceus) says so". And Arceus goes, "I'm too abstract to be interacted or bothered by both worlds laws and concepts so you deal with them imma stay out of it"
 
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Type 5 is so hard to get because of anti feats. Qualification isn't the problem, maintaining it is. At least that's what I discovered after digging around

Arceus here we know his True self hasn't even made an appearance in the multiverse and is only interacting with it through Avatars. Because abstract

The reason why madoka has maintained type 5 is because the madokas that interacts with the world are simple avatars. Her true self is outside, same for Arceus
 
The problem is that you need to have a direct mention of cause and effect.

That's pretty much the reason Madoka has it, because she has a direct mention of Cause and Effect. While Arceus only has extrapolation because it has no direct statements of it being outside causality.
 
Everything12 said:
That's pretty much the reason Madoka has it, because she has a direct mention of Cause and Effect. While Arceus only has extrapolation because it has no direct statements of it being outside causality.
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This was the scan that was used to upgrade her to Aca 5.

This is the thread

If Arceus transcends his reality, that would apply to the laws he made within them. Remember that he existed before all the laws were made.


The Distortion world is a place where he goes "what will happen if I inversed the laws of causality/physics/logic that I made in the Pokémon world". Thereby creating Aca 4 on a whim. Why would he be binnded by the laws he established?

He created the law of causality, and everything in creation, when there was nothing. Inversed those laws for the Distortion world and is currently chilling in his realm beyond time and space
 
Aca 5 is a no. There is not enough evidence. For aca 5, the evidence needs to be so overwhelming that it can't be denied at all, in order to be accepted. Unless Arceus is straight up mentioned to specifically transcend causality, he does not get 5. The difference is that Madoka has a direct statement. Arceus does not.
 
Zeifyl said:
Aca 5 is a no. There is not enough evidence. For aca 5, the evidence needs to be so overwhelming that it can't be denied at all, in order to be accepted. Unless Arceus is straight up mentioned to specifically transcend causality, he does not get 5. The difference is that Madoka has a direct statement. Arceus does not.
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Here's a justification of type 5 for Warhammer. This is literally explaining Distortion world

Isn't the creator of the laws, transcendent over such laws. Question I'm asking.

Masudas literally says Arceus is transcendent over his reality. What more do you want
 
Yemma670 said:
Here's a justification of type 5 for Warhammer. This is literally explaining Distortion world

Isn't the creator of the laws, transcendent over such laws. Question I'm asking.

Masudas literally says Arceus is transcendent over his reality. What more do you want
Click to expand...
In that case, Warhammer needs it removed. Warhammer only qualifies for "Possibly aca 4" if that is all the evidence there is.
In fact, if there is no more evidence for Realm of Chaos to have acausality, it has less of a leg to stand on than Distortion World (as the latter has direct statements of at least irregular).

And what I want is a direct confirmation, not extrapolation, that Arceus is above causality as a whole. Anything less than that does not qualify.
 
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Zeifyl said:
In that case, Warhammer needs it removed. Warhammer only qualifies for "Possibly aca 4" if that is all the evidence there is.
In fact, if there is no more evidence for Realm of Chaos to have acausality, it has less of a leg to stand on than Distortion World (as the latter has direct statements of at least irregular).
Click to expand...
Well, the chaos gods still have Aca 5 for the same reason that the the distortion world has for aca 4.

As for removal, no one seems to have any issues with it.

So either they nuke the hell out of it or at least give Arceus type 5. He created and exists outside of an Aca 5 system

That's above baseline type 5 right there
 
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