Pokemon Discussion Thread - Red & Blue arc

[Zeifyl]

So about arceus world that was state transcend time and space , what it give? 2x baseline 2-A cosmology?

BDE 2

 

[Sniper670]

So about arceus world that was state transcend time and space , what it give? 2x baseline 2-A cosmology?

Eh, the statement about perceiving the multiverse into existence is more likely to give above baseline , than simply transcending time and space

 

[XXKINGXX69]

He is said to BE the Distortion World. And who created Giratina? Our llama.



It never was, no.

Cyrus stated that Giratina created the Distortion World

And yeah it was, I showed you where this wiki accepted it as canon

1. That makes no grammatical sense.
2. The whole thing about 100% of all space and time, and everything within it being powered by the Plates, and the Plates being powered by Arceus. And this includes the Tree of Life, Eternamax Eternatus, Leon's Charizard, Silvally, Dark Matter, Zygarde, the entire Lake and Creation Trios, and everything else you might try to argue is somehow above Arceus. Existing in Pokemon means that you, by definition, are below Arceus.
3. Arceus lost to Dark Matter because Arceus did not fight Dark Matter. If Dark Matter was a big enough deal for Arceus to want to fight, Dark Matter would have been oneshot since it, too, is powered BY Arceus, and therefore, by definition, cannot EXCEED Arceus. And the Ultra Beasts were not worth Arceus's attention. They were for Zygarde and Silvally to deal with.

And then there is, of course, the whole thing in PLA, where Dialga or Palkia (depends on who you sided with) tried to take the form of Arceus, when gunning for ultimate power. Not Eternatus. Not Dark Matter. Even though BOTH had had events in the past, so there is no way Dialga and Palkia didn't know about them. The reason for this decision from these two deities is, of course, that Arceus' form is stronger.

Why does it make no sense?

Arceus' avatar is also part of space and time, and yet he is immensely stronger than the avatars of Dialga and Palkia that can damage and threaten to destroy each others' true forms. There is also a rock part of this space time that has all the power of the Original Spirit. There is also no indication Arceus gives all the power of Pokemon, he only shared power with them. They would obviously have grown stronger over time

Arceus was still one shot and erased spiritually by Dark Matter, who absorbed his energy, he isn't powered by Arceus

They were Zygarde and Silvally's enemies because they are stronger than him, and to defeat the UBs, a power that rivals the pokemon often spoken of in myth (which includes mythical Pokemon in general like the original spirit). And im not saying that statement alone means Silvally is as strong as Arceus, just that power that rivals Arceus is needed to even defeat the UBs

PMD is not a first party source, nor is it a primary source.
Primary sources: Core games (Red, Green, Blue, Yellow, Gold, Silver, Crystal, Ruby, Sapphire, Firered, Leafgreen, Emerald, Diamond, Pearl, Platinum, Heartgold, Soulsilver, Black, White, Black 2, White 2, X, Y, Sun, Moon, Ultra Sun, Ultra Moon, Sword, Shield, Legends: Arceus, Scarlet, and Violet, and any games that interacts with them in a meaningful way, such as by being able to transfer Pokémon to/from them)
First party sources: Direct statements from, and products directly made by, The Pokémon Company, Creatures, Inc, and/or GameFreak.
Secondary source: Anime (IIRC. Either this, or Adventures)
Teritary source: Pokémon Adventures (IIRC. Either this, or the Anime)
Quaterary sources: Everything else that is part of the Pokémon franchise.
Mystery Dungeon (Made by Spike Chunsoft, a third party developer) falls under a quaterary source.
Pokémon Masters (Made by Dena Co., ltd, a third party developer) is also a quaterary source, but a bit closer to teritary than other quaterary sources.
If there are disagreements over things that can't be explained away with alternate universes (E.G. the cosmology as a whole, multiversal constants, and such), quaterary sources loses to teritary sources loses to secondary sources loses to primary sources.
Arceus falls into the "multiversal constants" category, and the primary sources repeatedly insists that it stands above everything else, transcends reality as a whole, fuels all of reality, and so on.

Nice job making all this up

In the part where it says that he created everything and transcends everything like 20 times?



Some random hyperbole anime statement that could simply mean in history of alola.
Also the Jewel of life isn't canon to the main anime plotline and thus Arceus never threatened alola. This is proven by the fact that Arceus' portrayala after that are 100% different from his portrayal there. Ash also never acknowledges meeting him before. Arceus also never talks at all in the mainline anime while the movie Arceus doesn't shut up.

Him creating everything doesn't mean his creations can't surpass him

Why is it hyperbole and who said just the history of alola? Arceus was trying to destroy Alola too

Why is jewel of life non canon to the anime? he literally acts the same, Ash remembers him. Arceus acting different doesn't mean he's just a different person, he also doesn't even talk in the Hoopa movie. And why do you use feats from jewel of life when you think its non canon?

 

[Sniper670]

Is this guy INSANE?


WHO TF IS SUPERIOR TO ARCEUS IN POKÉMON.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Cyrus stated that Giratina created the Distortion World

And was contradicted later on. We know for fact who created Giratina.

And yeah it was, I showed you where this wiki accepted it as canon

Doesn't change a fact + the blog is outdated.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

And was contradicted later on. We know for fact who created Giratina.

Doesn't change a fact + the blog is outdated.

It isn't even a blog, and I told you, there's a manual saying its just a parallel world to the main one

Why is it contradicted, can you show me?

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

At this point just give the main Pokémon planet tiers 2-B/2-A durability and call it a wrap.

This entire discussion has completely go off the walls. Just try to keep it civil and concise please? For sanity sake.

 

[Sniper670]

Cyrus stated that Giratina created the Distortion World

And so what

And yeah it was, I showed you where this wiki accepted it as canon

Where. Show me. If anime contradicts games, we'll go with the games. And You're using pmd? , on the more insignificant part of canon, that directly contradicts Arceus showings in the games and Masuda's statement of his transcendence

Masuda's claim/Primary Canon>>>>>>>>>> a dumbass plotline pmd made by whatever the heck studio. That's the same thing they did to Dialga with the time gears

Why does it make no sense?

Arceus' avatar is also part of space and time, and yet he is immensely stronger than the avatars of Dialga and Palkia that can damage and threaten to destroy each others' true forms. There is also a rock part of this space time that has all the power of the Original Spirit. There is also no indication Arceus gives all the power of Pokemon, he only shared power with them. They would obviously have grown stronger over time

What's your point. That Arceus threw all his powers in Hisui? The plates are just fragments of him, so is the avatar. He literally let's you keep the plates after acquiring them. Silly to think Arceus is restricted by some plates and items. Lmao. Forgetting that a mere glimpse of his power let him recreate the CT over and over again in Pokémon Diamond

Arceus was still one shot and erased spiritually by Dark Matter, who absorbed his energy, he isn't powered by Arceus

Again. Show me Dark Matter in canon. The concept of Emotions is embodied by a Pokémon. Who's extremely insignificant compared to Arceus. So Negative Emotion >>>Arceus. Like, your okay?

They were Zygarde and Silvally's enemies because they are stronger than him, and to defeat the UBs, a power that rivals the pokemon often spoken of in myth (which includes mythical Pokemon in general like the original spirit). And im not saying that statement alone means Silvally is as strong as Arceus, just that power that rivals Arceus is needed to even defeat the UBs

Silvally doesn't even Rival the Creation Trio, let alone Arceus. How many times would the CT recreate the world, erasing all the mf within it, including Almighty Silvally. Or he's a transcendent being that exists outside the multiverse. chuckles. The CT sure did it in the games in one alternate universe . Dialga did it in the manga. Pfft, Silvally rivals Arceus? Very silly ignorant statement indeed

Nice job making all this up


Him creating everything doesn't mean his creations can't surpass him

Again, Masuda's statement/Arceus position and authority over the universe as shown in MAIN CANON>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Pmd. I can't stress enough how insignificant pmd is amongst the canonical materials

Why is it hyperbole and who said just the history of alola? Arceus was trying to destroy Alola too

No idea where youre getting at

Why is jewel of life non canon to the anime? he literally acts the same, Ash remembers him. Arceus acting different doesn't mean he's just a different person, he also doesn't even talk in the Hoopa movie. And why do you use feats from jewel of life when you think its non canon?

Pretty much retconned with the existence of more than the 16 plates in the games. The plates aren't the life force of Arceus, as the anime movie falsely claimed. Let me stress this.... Anime is canon, but the games take precedence over all, if there is contradictions and such, we'll choose the games.

 

[Sniper670]

At this point just give the main Pokémon planet tiers 2-B/2-A durability and call it a wrap

The meteor should be low 1-C for wrecking Arceus, and Rayquaza should be above baseline low 1C for casually busting a meteor in his base form. Certainly arceus showing of being able to casually erase falling boulders at the end of the movies wouldn't work on it

This entire discussion has completely go off the walls. Just try to keep it civil and concise please? For sanity sake.

Tree of Life and Dark Matter should be above Arceus tbh, Possibly Silvally. Pmd is primarily canon above all things. Dialga needing to use time gears to maintain the world's time is something that has been approved as canon by xxkingxx

 

[Zeifyl]

Why does it make no sense?

Because I literally did not understand what you were saying about lack of AP not proving lack of AP.

Arceus' avatar is also part of space and time, and yet he is immensely stronger than the avatars of Dialga and Palkia that can damage and threaten to destroy each others' true forms. There is also a rock part of this space time that has all the power of the Original Spirit. There is also no indication Arceus gives all the power of Pokemon, he only shared power with them. They would obviously have grown stronger over time

The rock has the power of the Original Spirit. Nowhere does it say it has ALL the power. And it definitely does not have ALL the power, because otherwise, that rock would, in the context of Pokemon, be omnipotent. And you're right. He did share power with them. The concept of power that he created. Without Arceus, no power. That. How. Work.

Arceus was still one shot and erased spiritually by Dark Matter, who absorbed his energy, he isn't powered by Arceus

An avatar of Arceus was one shot. And it's kind of impossible to spiritually erase something that does not spiritually exist. A state that, while not on Arceus' profile, has been accepted for literal YEARS on this site (unless there has been a change I haven't heard about).

They were Zygarde and Silvally's enemies because they are stronger than him, and to defeat the UBs, a power that rivals the pokemon often spoken of in myth (which includes mythical Pokemon in general like the original spirit). And im not saying that statement alone means Silvally is as strong as Arceus, just that power that rivals Arceus is needed to even defeat the UBs

They were Zygarde and Silvally's enemies, because Zygarde and Silvally were made to fight Ultra Beasts. They were not a threat to all reality, and therefore, not worth Arceus' time. We've seen how Arceus handles ACTUAL Multiversal threats: Send a 15 year old to deal with it.

Nice job making all this up

Oh yeah, I definitely made up that the first party developers got a bigger sway over the franchise that they made and own, than some other companies that is just borrowing the brand name. No, wait. That's just how stuff works! Except in DC, where everything is canon, apparently. But that's only the case because the first party declared it to be so. The Pokémon Company, GameFreak, and Creatures, Inc. got supreme authority over what is and isn't canon in Pokémon, because they own and created Pokémon, and by extension, their products are, by definition, the most accurate canon.
Unless you're referring to me omitting ORAS, BDSP, and the Let's Go games. But that's not because they shouldn't be there, because they are very much on the list of mainline/core/first party/primary canon/whatever-you-wanna-call-it games. But I legitimately forgot they existed.

 

[Sniper670]

It isn't even a blog, and I told you, there's a manual saying its just a parallel world to the main one

Yeah. I remember reading about that. Mind linking it here?

Why is it contradicted, can you show me?

If theres a contradiction, the games will take precedence.

 

[Sniper670]

Main canon says The LT represents aspects of the mind, including emotions. And some insignificant canon comes and says Dark matter is a manifestation of negative emotions.
Dude, Mesprit is the concept of emotions, both positive and negative.

Forget the part where the CT can erase the concept of Spirit in an alternate universe, which included the concept of emotions. . Somehow negative emotions >>>>Arceus? Turn Arceus into stone and send his spirit into void lands. Dude, the soul was wished into existence by the LT, Arceus has no soul

When the CT are passively universes in their fights this Mf Dark Matter is concerned about transporting tree of life into the sun

Goodness. Arceus depends on the tree of life for survival. Better not bust the multiverse lest my lifeline gets erased. Pretty sure, Arceus who exists outside the multiverse would put a tree in pmd to depend on. After all, in the creation story there was only the primordial chaos and Tree of Life, from which Arceus was born

And someone is actively using that to downplay Arcues. Dude that plot line was garbage since inception

 

[Zeifyl]

At this point just give the main Pokémon planet tiers 2-B/2-A durability and call it a wrap.

This entire discussion has completely go off the walls. Just try to keep it civil and concise please? For sanity sake.

Apologies. So, what were we talking about again?

 

[Arceus0x]

Why is jewel of life non canon to the anime? he literally acts the same, Ash remembers him. Arceus acting different doesn't mean he's just a different person, he also doesn't even talk in the Hoopa movie. And why do you use feats from jewel of life when you think its non canon?

"He literally acts the same" "Arceus acting different doesn't mean he's a different person"
Bruh at this point you are contradicting yourself in the same three sentences.

Also we never used Jewel of life feats. Why? Cause it has no feats besides showcasing the usage of plates by arceus which is shown even better in mainline anime.
Also, Ash never remembered him. He knew who Arceus is because Ash isn't dumb enough to not know the god of all pokemon. Also, he very clearly learned about him in the episodes where dialga and palkia got controlled by parallel team rocket and recognized him in the Legends Arceus specials because he met him quite literally a week or two prior when he prayed to him to save the multiverse.

Also, just logically, why would Ash listen to and pray to the guy who tried to murder everything he loved? Clearly an inconsistency.

Also, Arceus went full "REEEEEE" in jewel of life for no reason while in the other showings of him he was helpful and actually cared about people.

So overall we have
-Ash's act towards Arceus is different
-Arceus doesn't speak when he was a chatterbox in the movie
-Arceus isn't an asshole in mainline anime and helps people when they ask
-Arceus in movie threw meteors around for no reason in an attempt to destroy the planet and failed to destroy 1 temple when the Arceus in the anime had enough power to turn a Heatran into a space-bending lava horror which burned down forests by existing with a single one of his plates and could restrict him in moments with his abilities. He also surpassed Dialga and Palkia who created a universe iin seconds where the Dialga and Palkia in the movie were weaker than Arceus' wall buster meteors.

It's pretty damn obvious that this Arceus is different

 

[Arceus0x]

I believe that at this point we should stop replying. XXking is ignoring all of our points and calling them nonsensical or made up with no further evidence than his own bias.

At the same time this dude can't do anything because we already have a mutual consensus that we can defend in the eyes of the wiki. Arguing further would just bring more circular arguing (like it ended up being before, each time ending with people taking my side and me winning the argument). In this case he ain't shutting up despite his points making no sense.

 

[QuasiYuri]

It isn't even a blog, and I told you, there's a manual saying its just a parallel world to the main one

Why is it contradicted, can you show me?

It comes from a PMD manual, not a canon source.

It's as irrelevant as any non-canon spin off that claims to be another universe.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

It comes from a PMD manual, not a canon source.

It's as irrelevant as any non-canon spin off that claims to be another universe.

It is canon, its from Nintendo

Because I literally did not understand what you were saying about lack of AP not proving lack of AP.


The rock has the power of the Original Spirit. Nowhere does it say it has ALL the power. And it definitely does not have ALL the power, because otherwise, that rock would, in the context of Pokemon, be omnipotent. And you're right. He did share power with them. The concept of power that he created. Without Arceus, no power. That. How. Work.

An avatar of Arceus was one shot. And it's kind of impossible to spiritually erase something that does not spiritually exist. A state that, while not on Arceus' profile, has been accepted for literal YEARS on this site (unless there has been a change I haven't heard about).


They were Zygarde and Silvally's enemies, because Zygarde and Silvally were made to fight Ultra Beasts. They were not a threat to all reality, and therefore, not worth Arceus' time. We've seen how Arceus handles ACTUAL Multiversal threats: Send a 15 year old to deal with it.


Oh yeah, I definitely made up that the first party developers got a bigger sway over the franchise that they made and own, than some other companies that is just borrowing the brand name. No, wait. That's just how stuff works! Except in DC, where everything is canon, apparently. But that's only the case because the first party declared it to be so. The Pokémon Company, GameFreak, and Creatures, Inc. got supreme authority over what is and isn't canon in Pokémon, because they own and created Pokémon, and by extension, their products are, by definition, the most accurate canon.
Unless you're referring to me omitting ORAS, BDSP, and the Let's Go games. But that's not because they shouldn't be there, because they are very much on the list of mainline/core/first party/primary canon/whatever-you-wanna-call-it games. But I legitimately forgot they existed.

I'm saying that lack of destructive capacity doesn't mean you lack AP

Yes it does have all the Original Spirit's power. It is the same power that made all of existence, which is the power Arceus used to create the Creation trio

Arceus' true form is literally just his spirit

Yeah, Zygarde and Silvally fought them because they're both stronger than Arceus.

"He literally acts the same" "Arceus acting different doesn't mean he's a different person"
Bruh at this point you are contradicting yourself in the same three sentences.

Also we never used Jewel of life feats. Why? Cause it has no feats besides showcasing the usage of plates by arceus which is shown even better in mainline anime.
Also, Ash never remembered him. He knew who Arceus is because Ash isn't dumb enough to not know the god of all pokemon. Also, he very clearly learned about him in the episodes where dialga and palkia got controlled by parallel team rocket and recognized him in the Legends Arceus specials because he met him quite literally a week or two prior when he prayed to him to save the multiverse.

Also, just logically, why would Ash listen to and pray to the guy who tried to murder everything he loved? Clearly an inconsistency.

Also, Arceus went full "REEEEEE" in jewel of life for no reason while in the other showings of him he was helpful and actually cared about people.

So overall we have
-Ash's act towards Arceus is different
-Arceus doesn't speak when he was a chatterbox in the movie
-Arceus isn't an asshole in mainline anime and helps people when they ask
-Arceus in movie threw meteors around for no reason in an attempt to destroy the planet and failed to destroy 1 temple when the Arceus in the anime had enough power to turn a Heatran into a space-bending lava horror which burned down forests by existing with a single one of his plates and could restrict him in moments with his abilities. He also surpassed Dialga and Palkia who created a universe iin seconds where the Dialga and Palkia in the movie were weaker than Arceus' wall buster meteors.

It's pretty damn obvious that this Arceus is different

There's also no proof the Jewel of Life movie is non canon, they keep referencing stuff from the anime movies in mainline episodes

Ash is definitely willing to do that if its god

I told you that Arceus just having different personality doesn't make it non canon. The Jewel of Life movie was when he didn't trust humanity, other appearances was when he did

Arceus didn't talk in the Hoopa movie. Him failing to destroy a temple has nothing to do with canon dawg

And so what

Where. Show me. If anime contradicts games, we'll go with the games. And You're using pmd? , on the more insignificant part of canon, that directly contradicts Arceus showings in the games and Masuda's statement of his transcendence

Masuda's claim/Primary Canon>>>>>>>>>> a dumbass plotline pmd made by whatever the heck studio. That's the same thing they did to Dialga with the time gears

What's your point. That Arceus threw all his powers in Hisui? The plates are just fragments of him, so is the avatar. He literally let's you keep the plates after acquiring them. Silly to think Arceus is restricted by some plates and items. Lmao. Forgetting that a mere glimpse of his power let him recreate the CT over and over again in Pokémon Diamond

Again. Show me Dark Matter in canon. The concept of Emotions is embodied by a Pokémon. Who's extremely insignificant compared to Arceus. So Negative Emotion >>>Arceus. Like, your okay?

Silvally doesn't even Rival the Creation Trio, let alone Arceus. How many times would the CT recreate the world, erasing all the mf within it, including Almighty Silvally. Or he's a transcendent being that exists outside the multiverse. chuckles. The CT sure did it in the games in one alternate universe . Dialga did it in the manga. Pfft, Silvally rivals Arceus? Very silly ignorant statement indeed

Again, Masuda's statement/Arceus position and authority over the universe as shown in MAIN CANON>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Pmd. I can't stress enough how insignificant pmd is amongst the canonical materials

No idea where youre getting at

Pretty much retconned with the existence of more than the 16 plates in the games. The plates aren't the life force of Arceus, as the anime movie falsely claimed. Let me stress this.... Anime is canon, but the games take precedence over all, if there is contradictions and such, we'll choose the games.

Prove masuda has more power over his own work

And yeah, Arceus is restricted by his plates in the anime

Arceus is stronger than the concept of emotion because the Lake Trio do not embody the emotion of Arceus, while Dark matter does

Dialga never erased silvally, he wasn't even created then. The Aether Foundation people like Burnet has the Renegade Extension, which can create copies of Giratina and other extensions can form Dialga and Palkia and return them to the real world. If they can literally clone the creation trio, it isn't hard to believe Silvally is at least stronger than them

There are more than 16 plates in the anime

Why does the game take precedence?

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I believe that at this point we should stop replying. XXking is ignoring all of our points and calling them nonsensical or made up with no further evidence than his own bias.

At the same time this dude can't do anything because we already have a mutual consensus that we can defend in the eyes of the wiki. Arguing further would just bring more circular arguing (like it ended up being before, each time ending with people taking my side and me winning the argument). In this case he ain't shutting up despite his points making no sense.

"Me winning the argument" You never show scans and only use a lot of assumptions

 

[Sniper670]

It is canon, its from Nintendo

Show me

I'm saying that lack of destructive capacity doesn't mean you lack AP

Yes it does have all the Original Spirit's power. It is the same power that made all of existence, which is the power Arceus used to create the Creation trio

Arceus' true form is literally just his spirit

Yeah, Zygarde and Silvally fought them because they're both stronger than Arceus.

Dialga/Palkia have erased the universe, twice. Once in the games, and I remember Dialga did to in the manga. And yes, Zygarde/Silvally exist within it. I wonder why Zygarde didn't attempt to stop it. Lmao. Dialga can just freeze them in time and beat the crap out of them what am I getting at? Erase their ass from time. Anime PIS that contradict the manga and games. They're the only Pokémon who's fight can tear reality apart, and no one can stop them but Arceus, Giratina or Lake Trio(when the red chain is involved)

There's also no proof the Jewel of Life movie is non canon, they keep referencing stuff from the anime movies in mainline episodes

I'd like to know what the flame plate was doing in the latest series when Arceus took them away after "supposedly" getting betrayed

I told you that Arceus just having different personality doesn't make it non canon. The Jewel of Life movie was when he didn't trust humanity, other appearances was when he did

Oh yeah. What was the flame plate doing in the latest series when Arceus took them away after supposedly getting "betrayed". Whatever. It's retconned, Arceus doesn't have 16 plates, and he certainly doesn't depend on the plates. In PLA, the plates are merely fragments of his being. He literally let's keep it, to use with his much weaker Avatar. Who's also a fragment of his True being

Prove masuda has more power over his own work

Wut? He's boss of GameFreak. His statements>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>an insignificant low tier tertiary canon. In fact the mainline games is the basis from which all the other materials are adapted from. Unfortunately for PMD, it's so, different that it doesn't even do such, it basically does its own thing so it's canonicity is extremely iffy. Specially during contradictions. And if you played PLA, it's much as clear as day, Arceus is God. Transcending the reality he created isn't hyperbolic or flowery in any way

And yeah, Arceus is restricted by his plates in the anime

Not the case in the games.

Arceus is stronger than the concept of emotion because the Lake Trio do not embody the emotion of Arceus, while Dark matter does

Arceus is conceptless. He existence precedes creation and all its laws and concepts. The CT and LT wished for the concepts of Matter and Spirit to exist. So they didn't exist before that.

Dialga never erased silvally, he wasn't even created then. The Aether Foundation people like Burnet has the Renegade Extension, which can create copies of Giratina and other extensions can form Dialga and Palkia and return them to the real world. If they can literally clone the creation trio, it isn't hard to believe Silvally is at least stronger than them

And what proof do you have that they're just as powerful and not just cheap copies of themselves. And where do you get it that Silvally is stronger. I need proof of that.
When the universe is in danger, it's because of the CT, nor Silvally.

There are more than 16 plates in the anime

Yeah. I'd like to see more than 16 in JOL. I'd also like to know what the hell the flame plate was doing in the series after Arceus took them away in the movie

Why does the game take precedence?

Game is primary canon, from which everything is adapted from. It's as simple as that. If game says it's 2, and anime says it's 4, we'll go with games

 

[Sniper670]

Immunity to Cm1 and TD2 fits Arceus criteria if this is anything to go by

Aunn Komano

Aunn Komano is a Komainu living near the Hakurei Shrine. Without its owner's knowledge, she guards the Shrine against intruders. Tier: At least 8-B | Low 2-C Key: Physical World | Nameless Form Name: Aunn Komano Origin: Touhou Project Gender: Female Age: Predates reality itself Classification...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Thoughts?

 

[Arceus0x]

"Me winning the argument" You never show scans and only use a lot of assumptions

I show scans it's just that you never reply after i do

 

[Arceus0x]

also no proof the Jewel of Life movie is non canon, they keep referencing stuff from the anime movies in mainline episodes

Ash is definitely willing to do that if its god

I told you that Arceus just having different personality doesn't make it non canon. The Jewel of Life movie was when he didn't trust humanity, other appearances was when he did

Arceus didn't talk in the Hoopa movie. Him failing to destroy a temple has nothing to do with canon dawg

Your literal argument here is
"nooooo that didn't happen it's not like thaaaaat".
I see no evidence and a character having a completely different personality does indicate that the character is differrent which in turn shows us that the movie ain't canon.

Overall i indeed see no point in replying to you any further than that, you're just arguing out of personal bias and nothing else.

 

[theultimate5105]

Immunity to Cm1 and TD2 fits Arceus criteria if this is anything to go by

Aunn Komano

Aunn Komano is a Komainu living near the Hakurei Shrine. Without its owner's knowledge, she guards the Shrine against intruders. Tier: At least 8-B | Low 2-C Key: Physical World | Nameless Form Name: Aunn Komano Origin: Touhou Project Gender: Female Age: Predates reality itself Classification...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Thoughts?

It would be NEP Aspect 2 for the Immunity to CM1

 

[Arceus0x]

Immunity to Cm1 and TD2 fits Arceus criteria if this is anything to go by

Aunn Komano

Aunn Komano is a Komainu living near the Hakurei Shrine. Without its owner's knowledge, she guards the Shrine against intruders. Tier: At least 8-B | Low 2-C Key: Physical World | Nameless Form Name: Aunn Komano Origin: Touhou Project Gender: Female Age: Predates reality itself Classification...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Thoughts?

Idk if it's useful

 

[Thelastmlg]

At this point king is just showing how bias he has against arceus, and how hard he needs to stonewall to keep a debate going, he ignores basic logic and literal plot points with his own headcanon and twisted interpretation of lore.

The fact he still tries to say sylvally is above arceus when the text is talking about his ability, the fact he still believes the lake trio doesn't embody their concepts despite their birth literally bringing it AND them being called beings of emotion, willpower and knowledge and somehow still ignoring that true arceus is the origin of tbe entire verse, when at least a third of the god blog proves it, shows his desperation to downplay arceus.

I think the fact he literally said that the boss of gamefreak has less power over some tertiary company should tell you enough

At this point we should just leave him to those delusions, what is him going to do, a CRT that gets shot down by 10 supporters with actual scans? If he isn't trolling he is just stonewalling against stuff accepted by the wiki for years now

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Your literal argument here is
"nooooo that didn't happen it's not like thaaaaat".
I see no evidence and a character having a completely different personality does indicate that the character is differrent which in turn shows us that the movie ain't canon.

Overall i indeed see no point in replying to you any further than that, you're just arguing out of personal bias and nothing else.

Ok, if Ash acts very different in one episode, does that make it non canon? I also explained why Arceus doesn't even act that different, he just doesn't want to talk

At this point king is just showing how bias he has against arceus, and how hard he needs to stonewall to keep a debate going, he ignores basic logic and literal plot points with his own headcanon and twisted interpretation of lore.

The fact he still tries to say sylvally is above arceus when the text is talking about his ability, the fact he still believes the lake trio doesn't embody their concepts despite their birth literally bringing it AND them being called beings of emotion, willpower and knowledge and somehow still ignoring that true arceus is the origin of tbe entire verse, when at least a third of the god blog proves it, shows his desperation to downplay arceus.

I think the fact he literally said that the boss of gamefreak has less power over some tertiary company should tell you enough

At this point we should just leave him to those delusions, what is him going to do, a CRT that gets shot down by 10 supporters with actual scans? If he isn't trolling he is just stonewalling against stuff accepted by the wiki for years now

he ignores basic logic and literal plot points with his own headcanon and twisted interpretation of lore.

This is very dishonest, not a single person here was sending any scans or evidence for any claim

The fact he still tries to say sylvally is above arceus when the text is talking about his ability,

Where does it say that?

the fact he still believes the lake trio doesn't embody their concepts despite their birth literally bringing it AND them being called beings of emotion, willpower and knowledge

I never said this at any point

still ignoring that true arceus is the origin of tbe entire verse, when at least a third of the god blog proves it, shows his desperation to downplay arceus.

I even agreed that Arceus created the whole verse

I think the fact he literally said that the boss of gamefreak has less power over some tertiary company should tell you enough

This is also not true, I said that a game has more authority than the author

 

[Arceus0x]

This is also not true, I said that a game has more authority than the author

The mainline games, not the pmd games made by a third party with support from gamefreak.

If pokemon diamond said one thing but the author contradicted it i would have agreed with you.
However this time it is the guy who made primary games vs. A semi-third party spinoff that is inconsisten with the main lore.

 

[Arceus0x]

, if Ash acts very different in one episode, does that make it non canon? I also explained why Arceus doesn't even act that different, he just doesn't want to talk

1. Yes it does if he acts that way both in the diamon and pearl specials in pokemon journeys and pokemon legends arceus specials in the same series.
2. "Doesn't want to talk" Is a wild assumption considering he quite literally doesn't speak at all despite the fact that he took his time to call upon the characters and then explain to them everything without using words, despite the fact that he could've just said "yeah there's this big heatran, deal with it"

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Show me



Dialga/Palkia have erased the universe, twice. Once in the games, and I remember Dialga did to in the manga. And yes, Zygarde/Silvally exist within it. I wonder why Zygarde didn't attempt to stop it. Lmao. Dialga can just freeze them in time and beat the crap out of them what am I getting at? Erase their ass from time. Anime PIS that contradict the manga and games. They're the only Pokémon who's fight can tear reality apart, and no one can stop them but Arceus, Giratina or Lake Trio(when the red chain is involved)

I'd like to know what the flame plate was doing in the latest series when Arceus took them away after "supposedly" getting betrayed

Oh yeah. What was the flame plate doing in the latest series when Arceus took them away after supposedly getting "betrayed". Whatever. It's retconned, Arceus doesn't have 16 plates, and he certainly doesn't depend on the plates. In PLA, the plates are merely fragments of his being. He literally let's keep it, to use with his much weaker Avatar. Who's also a fragment of his True being

Wut? He's boss of GameFreak. His statements>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>an insignificant low tier tertiary canon. In fact the mainline games is the basis from which all the other materials are adapted from. Unfortunately for PMD, it's so, different that it doesn't even do such, it basically does its own thing so it's canonicity is extremely iffy. Specially during contradictions. And if you played PLA, it's much as clear as day, Arceus is God. Transcending the reality he created isn't hyperbolic or flowery in any way

Not the case in the games.

Arceus is conceptless. He existence precedes creation and all its laws and concepts. The CT and LT wished for the concepts of Matter and Spirit to exist. So they didn't exist before that.

And what proof do you have that they're just as powerful and not just cheap copies of themselves. And where do you get it that Silvally is stronger. I need proof of that.
When the universe is in danger, it's because of the CT, nor Silvally.



Yeah. I'd like to see more than 16 in JOL. I'd also like to know what the hell the flame plate was doing in the series after Arceus took them away in the movie

Game is primary canon, from which everything is adapted from. It's as simple as that. If game says it's 2, and anime says it's 4, we'll go with games

Show me

Here, the manuals are made by Nintendo. Even Ken Sugimori worked on it, so did masuda

Dialga/Palkia have erased the universe, twice. Once in the games, and I remember Dialga did to in the manga. And yes, Zygarde/Silvally exist within it. I wonder why Zygarde didn't attempt to stop it.

That was just EE, not pure AP. And Zygarde didn't feel the need to stop it because he knows that humans could handle it, while he knew the UBs are something humans alone couldn't

Lmao. Dialga can just freeze them in time and beat the crap out of them what am I getting at? Erase their ass from time.

Not even raw power

Anime PIS that contradict the manga and games. They're the only Pokémon who's fight can tear reality apart, and no one can stop them but Arceus, Giratina or Lake Trio(when the red chain is involved)

"No one can stop them". This is me when no one can stop me

I'd like to know what the flame plate was doing in the latest series when Arceus took them away after "supposedly" getting betrayed

It was just sitting there for an unknown reason, has no relevance

Oh yeah. What was the flame plate doing in the latest series when Arceus took them away after supposedly getting "betrayed".

What does this have to do with retcons? This happens in the game where the plates are just randomly on Earth too

All of that just means the plates in the games is different. But we treat the arceus in the anime and games as the same

Wut? He's boss of GameFreak. His statements>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>an insignificant low tier tertiary canon.

What is this arbitrary "tier of canon" you're making? His statements also just say Arceus transcends everything, and "everything is vague". There are statements in-universe which say other Pokemon like melmetal have the strongest punches of any Pokemon

Arceus is conceptless. He existence precedes creation and all its laws and concepts. The CT and LT wished for the concepts of Matter and Spirit to exist. So they didn't exist before that.

Not all concepts, just the concept of time, space, antimatter, and the ones the lake trio embody. They are also part of him. Has no relevance to anything here

Yeah. I'd like to see more than 16 in JOL. I'd also like to know what the hell the flame plate was doing in the series after Arceus took them away in the movie

The main character in DP took the plates away in the game, yet they can be found in BW and Sun and Moon. Does that make those games non canon? The flame plate could just have appeared on Earth for unknown reasons

 

[Arceus0x]

He quite literally disappears and ash just assumes "he was trying to say something" and then he remembers working to save sinnoh in the mainline canon, specifically the episode in the anime. He doesn't remember the movies at all

 

[XXKINGXX69]

The mainline games, not the pmd games made by a third party with support from gamefreak.

If pokemon diamond said one thing but the author contradicted it i would have agreed with you.
However this time it is the guy who made primary games vs. A semi-third party spinoff that is inconsisten with the main lore.

I told you why new info isn't an inconsistency, the games themselves have inconsistent lore, like Groudon and Kyogre never having more forms in RSE, but have them in remakes, because the original games are another universe to the remake universes

They got support from gamefreak which only makes it canon. Diamond and pearl remakes were also made by a third party

1. Yes it does if he acts that way both in the diamon and pearl specials in pokemon journeys and pokemon legends arceus specials in the same series.
2. "Doesn't want to talk" Is a wild assumption considering he quite literally doesn't speak at all despite the fact that he took his time to call upon the characters and then explain to them everything without using words, despite the fact that he could've just said "yeah there's this big heatran, deal with it"

"diamond and pearl specials in pokemon journeys"

2. "Doesn't want to talk" Is a wild assumption considering he quite literally doesn't speak at all despite the fact that he took his time to call upon the characters and then explain to them everything without using words, despite the fact that he could've just said "yeah there's this big heatran, deal with it"

Again, how does acting different mean something is non canon?

 

[XXKINGXX69]

He quite literally disappears and ash just assumes "he was trying to say something" and then he remembers working to save sinnoh in the mainline canon, specifically the episode in the anime. He doesn't remember the movies at all

This is like the only time you ever send scans. First of all, him not mentioning the movie doesn't mean its non canon, by that logic, every time Ash forgets or doesn't mention something later its non canon

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Mystery dungeon also appears in the TCG, which is part of the game canon, part of the anime, characters like cynthia are explicitly confirmed to be the same in TCG and anime, same for Steven, the games, TCG, anime, manga are all confirmed to be connected

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Detective Pikachu is also made by people other than just gamefreak but authors have said it takes place in the canon, since you guys like author statements a lot

 

[Sniper670]

Here, the manuals are made by Nintendo. Even Ken Sugimori worked on it, so did masuda

And this proves canon outside of simply selling them out. I'd very much like for you to show me Dark Matter existing anywhere but PMD. Or Dialga and time Gears being of relevance for Dialga to maintain time. Let me guess.... "bbb... But pmd" lmao

That was just EE, not pure AP. And Zygarde didn't feel the need to stop it because he knows that humans could handle it, while he knew the UBs are something humans alone couldn't

Headcannon.. He can't stop them even if he tried. Lol. As if they haven't erased a universe before

Not even raw power

In the manga, they were so strong that no Pokémon could stop them. In the anime of love to see anyone who's broken their fight

"No one can stop them". This is me when no one can stop me

You're using PMD again. Cos like, that's the only place where Dark Matter would ever exist for you to even attempt to use to downplay Arceus. I'd very much like for you to try using the mainline games.

It was just sitting there for an unknown reason, has no relevance



What does this have to do with retcons? This happens in the game where the plates are just randomly on Earth too

As I said before, he doesn't need the plates. It's always given to the player over and over again in any games Arceus makes an appearance. It's not his lifeforce as the anime falsely claimed. His True Self doesn't need it, since they're merely fragment

What is this arbitrary "tier of canon" you're making? His statements also just say Arceus transcends everything, and "everything is vague". There are statements in-universe which say other Pokemon like melmetal have the strongest punches of any Pokemon

Who created the multiverse and everything in them. Including that Mel metal. Have they gauged Arceus strength. Is Arceus in PLA?. His True form doesn't even exist within the multiverse.

Not all concepts, just the concept of time, space, antimatter, and the ones the lake trio embody. They are also part of him. Has no relevance to anything here

He existed before concepts.. So yes, he precedes all concept in reality.

The main character in DP took the plates away in the game, yet they can be found in BW and Sun and Moon. Does that make those games non canon? The flame plate could just have appeared on Earth for unknown reasons

Like I said before, Arceus doesn't need the plates. They're not his lifeforce, His True self doesn't need them. Which is why it's always given to the player whenever Arceus makes an appearance

 

[Sniper670]

Detective Pikachu is also made by people other than just gamefreak but authors have said it takes place in the canon, since you guys like author statements a lot

Alright. Show me author statements or anything at all proving PMD canon to the mainline games

 

[Zeifyl]

I told you why new info isn't an inconsistency, the games themselves have inconsistent lore, like Groudon and Kyogre never having more forms in RSE, but have them in remakes, because the original games are another universe to the remake universes

Yes. And that is part of the canon. It is also part of the canon that the Lake and Creation Trio as well as Arceus are in a position where the "alternate universe" argument can't be used. Palkia created every Universe. Arceus transcends all Space and Time, and thus, by definition, every Universe.

They got support from gamefreak which only makes it canon. Diamond and pearl remakes were also made by a third party

The difference between Mystery Dungeon/Masters/ect. and the Gen IV remakes in this case is the brand. The main canon of Pokémon has its own brand separate from everything else, but only in Japan. This brand is 『ポケットモンスター』シリーズ. If anything disagrees with 『ポケットモンスター』シリーズ, about stuff that can't be explained with parallel universes, alternate dimensions/timelines or such, 『ポケットモンスター』シリーズ wins the argument, due to being 『ポケットモンスター』シリーズ. Additionally, due to its position as primary canon, only 『ポケットモンスター』シリーズ can override author statements.
The games in the 『ポケットモンスター』シリーズ brand are as follows:
Red/Green/Blue/Yellow
Gold/Silver/Crystal
Ruby/Sapphire/Emerald/Firered/Leafgreen
Diamond/Pearl/Platinum/Heartgold/Soulsilver
Black/White/Black 2/White 2
X/Y/Omega Ruby/Alpha Sapphire
Sun/Moon/Ultra Sun/Ultra Moon/Let's Go Pikachu/Let's Go Eevee
Sword/Shield/Expansions for Sword and Shield/Brillaint Diamond/Shining Pearl/Pokémon Legends: Arceus
Scarlet/Violet
If there is disagreements within 『ポケットモンスター』シリーズ, the most consistent wins, and if the claims are equally consistent, the newest wins.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

And this proves canon outside of simply selling them out. I'd very much like for you to show me Dark Matter existing anywhere but PMD. Or Dialga and time Gears being of relevance for Dialga to maintain time. Let me guess.... "bbb... But pmd" lmao

Headcannon.. He can't stop them even if he tried. Lol. As if they haven't erased a universe before

In the manga, they were so strong that no Pokémon could stop them. In the anime of love to see anyone who's broken their fight

You're using PMD again. Cos like, that's the only place where Dark Matter would ever exist for you to even attempt to use to downplay Arceus. I'd very much like for you to try using the mainline games.

As I said before, he doesn't need the plates. It's always given to the player over and over again in any games Arceus makes an appearance. It's not his lifeforce as the anime falsely claimed. His True Self doesn't need it, since they're merely fragment

Who created the multiverse and everything in them. Including that Mel metal. Have they gauged Arceus strength. Is Arceus in PLA?. His True form doesn't even exist within the multiverse.

He existed before concepts.. So yes, he precedes all concept in reality.

Like I said before, Arceus doesn't need the plates. They're not his lifeforce, His True self doesn't need them. Which is why it's always given to the player whenever Arceus makes an appearance

In the manga, the Creation Trio got stomped by trainers

Who created the multiverse and everything in them. Including that Mel metal.

Melmetal could have grown stronger

You also haven't proved PMD wasn't canon, other than saying there are differences, but I told you why even the games have differences

As I said before, he doesn't need the plates. It's always given to the player over and over again in any games Arceus makes an appearance. It's not his lifeforce as the anime falsely claimed. His True Self doesn't need it, since they're merely fragment

This would just mean the anime plates are different, not that its non canon. Arceus has multiple plates

 

[Sniper670]

Mystery dungeon also appears in the TCG, which is part of the game canon, part of the anime, characters like cynthia are explicitly confirmed to be the same in TCG and anime, same for Steven, the games, TCG, anime, manga are all confirmed to be connected

Canon

m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

Read about the Pokémon canon

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Yes. And that is part of the canon. It is also part of the canon that the Lake and Creation Trio as well as Arceus are in a position where the "alternate universe" argument can't be used. Palkia created every Universe. Arceus transcends all Space and Time, and thus, by definition, every universe.


The difference between Mystery Dungeon/Masters/ect. and the Gen IV remakes in this case is the brand. The main canon of Pokémon has its own brand separate from everything else, but only in Japan. This brand is 『ポケットモンスター』シリーズ. If anything disagrees with 『ポケットモンスター』シリーズ, about stuff that can't be explained with parallel universes, alternate dimensions/timelines or such, 『ポケットモンスター』シリーズ wins the argument, due to being 『ポケットモンスター』シリーズ. Additionally, due to its position as primary canon, only 『ポケットモンスター』シリーズ can override author statements.
The games in the 『ポケットモンスター』シリーズ brand are as follows:
Red/Green/Blue/Yellow
Gold/Silver/Crystal
Ruby/Sapphire/Emerald/Firered/Leafgreen
Diamond/Pearl/Platinum/Heartgold/Soulsilver
Black/White/Black 2/White 2
X/Y/Omega Ruby/Alpha Sapphire
Sun/Moon/Ultra Sun/Ultra Moon/Let's Go Pikachu/Let's Go Eevee
Sword/Shield/Expansions for Sword and Shield/Brillaint Diamond/Shining Pearl/Pokémon Legends: Arceus
Scarlet/Violet
If there is disagreements within 『ポケットモンスター』シリーズ, the most consistent wins, and if the claims are equally consistent, the newest wins.

Yes, there are other universes, their true forms are the same, so you're just agreeing with me

he difference between Mystery Dungeon/Masters/ect. and the Gen IV remakes in this case is the brand. The main canon of Pokémon has its own brand separate from everything else, but only in Japan. This brand is 『ポケットモンスター』シリーズ. If anything disagrees with 『ポケットモンスター』シリーズ, about stuff that can't be explained with parallel universes, alternate dimensions/timelines or such, 『ポケットモンスター』シリーズ wins the argument, due to being 『ポケットモンスター』シリーズ. Additionally, due to its position as primary canon, only 『ポケットモンスター』シリーズ can override author statements.

This is the Pokemon company, and mystery dungeon is part of this brand