Pokemon Discussion Thread - Red & Blue arc

[Bobsican]

Checking for a type immunity, AKA, a multiplier of 0, otherwise, trigger as normal.

& nonetheless this doesn't seem to me like strong evidence of a connection to immunities.

I think other basises are needed.

Yeah, but it's not just multiplying damage taken by half, it triggers a not very effective flag, which is notable as this is different from stuff like Multiscale on not being mitigable by hitting a weakness. This is just supporting evidence anyways.

Interesting. I think we would need to check with other timeline evidence however, to see if it is plausible someone of the S/V player character's apparent age could be reincarnated in the time between those, though.
In the event of a possible contradiction from such, it may be worth noting that Pokemon has a variety of weird NPCs.

The timeline appears to get rather blurry in terms of time passed since Gen 7, and there's also some inconsistencies regardless, so this may depend on how we approach that and alternate timelines as well. In any case it'd be worth reminding that the Gen 9 main character is the one responding to the weird claims themselves with a specific region name, in particular nothing about Hisui is directly brought up elsewhere IIRC.

But they still design Tera Raids & promote online competitions, including timed event 7 Star Raid Battles. To say there isn't a designed meta for this is silly.
Plus, many rare, often Legendary or Mythical Pokemon have been featured in Raids, IIRC.

That wasn't what I meant to say, I meant on this translating to Arceus being able to Terastallize or not has no major impact on the metagames the developers care about.

They also haven't restricted Terastallization for almost any Pokemon.

Which further adds to the point as it's trivial to do, if there wasn't an intent on Multitype having less priority than a Terastallized type, that'd have been the case already.

The idea that Arceus & Tera Stellar have a connection because it's good specifically in Tera Raids, when Tera Stellar was designed for Tera Raids seems like weak evidence to me.

Yeah, it's just supporting evidence as well.

You suspect they scrapped a 2nd regional gimmick for Paldea?

Oh no, that was regarding the "what were they cooking?" bit.

Perhaps? Dendra says it in the context of a class, which has courses focused on Tera Raids; As a series of large tutorials, or very similar, I could believe game mechanics being involved in explaining this aspect.

Though, it not being game mechanics might mean that Tera Raid Pokemon are prone to patterned, specific sets of actions, no?

Probably, it's not like the normal actions (selecting moves at random) is much better in any case.

Well if it's not anything supernatural nor persuasiveness, that gives the unfortunate implication that trainers in Tera Raids are easily dismayed by Tera Shields.
Perhaps plausible, but a little disappointing, I suppose, no?

Considering that it's also stated around that most trainers don't get more than about 4 badges that doesn't sound too extraordinary either.

 

[Imaginym]

Yeah, but it's not just multiplying damage taken by half, it triggers a not very effective flag, which is notable as this is different from stuff like Multiscale on not being mitigable by hitting a weakness. This is just supporting evidence anyways.

To its credit, it does achieve the same end through a different means in the code, but yes, I'd call it supporting evidence at most.
I think something more overt than how the game's code that players usually aren't meant to see is necessary. Lore is typically presented to an audience.

The timeline appears to get rather blurry in terms of time passed since Gen 7, and there's also some inconsistencies regardless, so this may depend on how we approach that and alternate timelines as well. In any case it'd be worth reminding that the Gen 9 main character is the one responding to the weird claims themselves with a specific region name, in particular nothing about Hisui is directly brought up elsewhere.

I see. (Though, I forget if PL:A can be connected to games besides S/V. Plus, S/V was the only one released after it so far, right?)

That wasn't what I meant to say, I meant on this translating to Arceus being able to Terastallize or not has no major impact on the metagames the developers care about.

I would assume they care about Tera Raid Battles considering how many special ones they did.
Also, you had said "there's the matter of Tera Stellar Arceus being really good for Tera Raids in general, so I don't think this was done by accident."
Are(n't) you advocating for Tera Stellar Arceus being good in Tera Raids relevant to a lore connection between Arceus & Terastallization?
What are you advocating for, if you'll forgive my asking?

Which further adds to the point as it's trivial to do, if there wasn't an intent on Multitype having less priority than a Terastallized type, that'd have been the case already.

So do you think that if Arceus wanted to overwrite its Terastallized type with Multitype, it could not, because... all Pokemon (With 1 exception for a gimmick.) can Terastallize?
Did Arceus not create the types?

Oh no, that was regarding the "what were they cooking?" bit.

Ah.

Probably, it's not like the normal actions (selecting moves at random) is much better in any case.

But Pokemon acting at random isn't how we usually assume their behaviour; We have intelligence sections, feats & behaviour to go off of.
Hence my concern about Dendra's statement & patterned actions of Tera Raid mons, you know?

Considering that it's also stated around that most trainers don't get more than about 4 badges that doesn't sound too extraordinary either.

It is?
(Incidentally, this reminds me that I'm hoping we can soon discuss the, IMHO, messy scaling chain to untangle regarding Tera Raid scaling.)

 

[Bobsican]

To its credit, it does achieve the same end through a different means in the code, but yes, I'd call it supporting evidence at most.
I think something more overt than how the game's code that players usually aren't meant to see is necessary. Lore is typically presented to an audience.

Well, the mechanics can be seen first-hand indepenendly of the code by testing it, in particular this has an impact on a recent official competitive format as it enabled Terapagos into a reliable answer to Shadow Rider Calyrex.

I see. (Though, I forget if PL:A can be connected to games besides S/V. Plus, S/V was the only one released after it so far, right?)

Currently, yeah, there's no other manline game released after PLA than SV.

I would assume they care about Tera Raid Battles considering how many special ones they did.
Also, you had said "there's the matter of Tera Stellar Arceus being really good for Tera Raids in general, so I don't think this was done by accident."
Are(n't) you advocating for Tera Stellar Arceus being good in Tera Raids relevant to a lore connection between Arceus & Terastallization?
What are you advocating for, if you'll forgive my asking?

That's more so to encourage players to keep playing every now and then, which is also part of why there's Mystery Gift events as well as changes of rules for official competitive formats every now and then, this is common for games with post-release content these days.

What I'm advocating for is Tera Stellar Arceus being a cheap way to adapt to most Tera Raids supporting on the existence of a Terastallized Arceus not being an ignorable thing from the development side of things, thus if there was a desire to more accurately prevent it from Terastallizing it'd be the case.

So do you think that if Arceus wanted to overwrite its Terastallized type with Multitype, it could not, because... all Pokemon (With 1 exception for a gimmick.) can Terastallize?
Did Arceus not create the types?

We have yet to see Arceus overriding a Terastallized type change to itself with Multitype in the first place. In particular Multitype doesn't protect from other methods of changing type such as Soak, while Terastallizing does. Creating something does not inherently include having better control over it for a particular purpose.

But Pokemon acting at random isn't how we usually assume their behaviour; We have intelligence sections, feats & behaviour to go off of.
Hence my concern about Dendra's statement & patterned actions of Tera Raid mons, you know?

Oh, I meant that from the game mechanics side, sorry for going on a tangent. Frankly I don't think this stuff is of much use as it's simply vague as said before.

It is?
(Incidentally, this reminds me that I'm hoping we can soon discuss the, IMHO, messy scaling chain to untangle regarding Tera Raid scaling.)

Yeah, I don't recall where exactly as it's not a cutscene per-say, however.

As for the scaling, I presume you mean the way to scale Gen 9 characters involving paradoxes scaling to Champions, then Nemona (a Champion) scaling to Red by fighting each other in Masters, who basically has a scaling chain leading to Cyrus, thus 2-B paradoxes, Gen 9 legendaries and so on.

 

[Imaginym]

Well, the mechanics can be seen first-hand indepenendly of the code by testing it, in particular this has an impact on a recent official competitive format as it enabled Terapagos into a reliable answer to Shadow Rider Calyrex.

Indeed, although as is, I feel like there needs to be something establishing the immunity nearness stuff for Tera Shell as more than "mechanics", & something in lore would be nice.
& you know that GF is big on making their mons VGC viable.

That's more so to encourage players to keep playing every now and then, which is also part of why there's Mystery Gift events as well as changes of rules for official competitive formats every now and then, this is common for games with post-release content these days.

What I'm advocating for is Tera Stellar Arceus being a cheap way to adapt to most Tera Raids supporting on the existence of a Terastallized Arceus not being an ignorable thing from the development side of things, thus if there was a desire to more accurately prevent it from Terastallizing it'd be the case.

I think they didn't prevent Arceus from Terastallizing not because they're trying to establish lore or anything, but to support raids & because all Pokemon can Terastallize regardless.
Arceus presumably can Terastallize in lore. IDK why it wouldn't be able to.

We have yet to see Arceus overriding a Terastallized type change to itself with Multitype in the first place. In particular Multitype doesn't protect from other methods of changing type such as Soak, while Terastallizing does. Creating something does not inherently include having better control over it for a particular purpose.

Does Arceus not have other type control feats, like granting the powers of the types through the plates?
I'd wanna hear the opinions of others on this matter.

Oh, I meant that from the game mechanics side, sorry for going on a tangent. Frankly I don't think this stuff is of much use as it's simply vague as said before.

I guess we'll tackle the behaviour of Tera Raid Pokemon later?

for the scaling, I presume you mean the way to scale Gen 9 characters involving paradoxes scaling to Champions, then Nemora (a Champion) scaling to Red by fighting each other in Masters, who basically has a scaling chain leading to Cyrus, thus 2-B paradoxes, Gen 9 legendaries and so on.

IIRC, there was supposed to be an interview quote about Masters was supposed to have the games be canon to it, but not Masters canon to the game.
& in this case, besides, not sure I personally, care for it, since it seems to mostly just turn a consistently tiered scaling chain into one that goes to 2-B by cross-continuity scaling, & to a mobile game no less.

Anyway, quoting an old post of mine:



Jacq says that, thanks to protagonist, "our" (who's?) investigation, & their new data says Terastal energy is released from the Great Crater of Paldea "from time to time", which affects Tera Crystals - Tera Crystals hit by "especially strong blasts" of this energy become "black crystals". Tera Pokemon found at black crystals are "incredibly powerful", Jacq emphasizing such with "So much so that average Trainers wouldn’t stand a chance against them." & urging the protagonist not to take them on, even if they do find the location on their map app.

After the player completes one, Jacq calls & says "We just saw the Terastal energy reading from one of the black crystals disappear a moment ago. Do you know anything about that?!"
Jacq is surprised the protagonist succeeded, & says, among other things:
"Your efforts have helped us come to understand the laws governing Terastal energy emissions."
"Still, even after all this, it seems that the amount of energy being emitted is slowly growing."
"That means we may continue to see more black crystals appear in the future."

His quotes page may be useful here:

Jacq/Quotes

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

Put another way:

You need to see the credits to participate in 5 Star Raids. Meaning become Champion. AFAIK, that means clearing The Way Home; Beat the AI Professor.
Beat 15 5-Star Raids, & he warns the player character about 6-Star Raids, asserting that "You're anything but average, but I'm afraid this is too dangerous—even for you, <player>.".
Beat a 6 Star Raid, Jacq is shocked, glad protagonist is okay, & urges them to be careful, even saying "Ah, by the way, Director Clavell will be madder than a rampaging Primeape if he finds out, so let's keep this between us two!".

It's clear that even for Post-Champion-Rank trainers, 5 star raids are dangerous, & 6 even more so, such that a student apparently can't normally be permited to attempt them.
To say nothing of what that implies for 7 Star Raids.

Still, if nothing else, Tera Raid Pokemon can take on 4 at once, & are grouped by level, though I'm unsure if the levels are meant to be known.
But 1 5 Star Tera Raid Pokemon being equivalent to 4 Champion Rank Pokemon, a 6 Star Tera Raid Pokemon being superior, etc.


& that's just in the base game; The Academy Ace Tournament implies the Pokemon get stronger, at least through dialogue & Pokemon levels.

Which brings up the question of how much stronger they are; For example, Nemona's Pokemon team are implied to be stronger for the tournament; Does this apply for her Mochi Mayhem battle? The Blueberry Academy Battle?
Levels & dialogue suggest it, no?

It will also help to figure out Area Zero Scaling, since these at-the-time, near Champion Rank Trainers return & fight Paradox Pokemon, then later, a different group -Impleid to be stronger, because Blueberry Academy & power progression- goes down & battle Tera Stellar Pokemon.

The Paradox Pokemon are concerning because that might be a basis for scaling a whole subgroup. IMHO, it's our best bet, since they're fairly direct showing.
(Also, Glimmora, but it was early into Area Zero. Maybe on that level of power but lower?)