Piccolo Moon Feat Downgrade

[TataHakai]

When Master Roshi did it, the whole world seemed to have noticed a loud noise and the audience was blinded by the flashing light of the blast. They didn't notice that he aimed at the moon until he told them and they initially though the blast was close to the battle field. Implying the blast reach from the Moon to Earth. Piccolo's feat is pratically the same, we see the light sounding him as well, implying the light reached from the moon to Earth.
Also, false equvelency. Ki Attacks are always potrayed as nukes unless the blast objects smaller than the blast. A small projectile blasting a large object has always been a nuke.

Any yes, I knot the game was a joke, but I'm saying we should avoid bringing it up at all.

No...no they didn't, they literally didn't even know the moon was gone for like a good minute until Master roshi told them he destroyed the moon and not Goku, they were blinded by the light of the Kamehameha and also the fact that most of them ducked for cover as it went for Goku

Nobody is denying the blast reached the moon, it's just that it didn't necessarily create the explosion of mass that the calcs claim it does.

There have been Ki attacks that have atomized people, destroyed them at a spiritual level and yep, Vaporized objects too, do you need me to go back and bring up all the times rocks and areas have been vaporized by ki attacks? I mean the KHH that Roshi used on the Moon which supposedly didn't vaporize it also vaporized MT. FryPan like 30 chapters earlier, so that argument literally goes more ways than one

 

[Lightbuster30]

Extremity of the example doesn't negate the fact that it's the same fallacy being commited in the argument

It kinda does since your essentially saying it's that as unreasonable as the example you used when it isn't.

 

[TataHakai]

Extremity of the example doesn't negate the fact that it's the same fallacy being commited in the argument

It kinda does since your essentially saying it's that as unreasonable as the example you used when it isn't.

? My example was to point out the fallacy itself, not saying it's as extreme

Saying a bad childhood will always lead to being a serial killer is the exact same fallacy as saying a bad childhood will always lead to an unsuccessful life, it's just a more extreme example of the slippery slope fallacy

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

In quite literally each and every example in which they did vaporize or "Atomize" an object, they created a blast that dwarfed the object getting vaporized in size. Not once was a pea shooter fired and an entire planet was vaporized. Also, they did see the Kamahameha getting fired, they just didn't know where it fired and assumed it was at Goku. His Kamahameha dwarfed Mt FryPan in size.

Also, we can't argue a sometimes Vs an Always. Plus, I'm pretty sure Toriyama supervised the Anime and would consider the Anime explosion not too far off from the original manga's example.

 

[Akreious]

At the very least I disagree with points 2 and 3.

For point 2, it's literally just Toriyama being Toriyama; AKA inconsistent with his drawings. You can find multiple ways to calc the feat and each and all are equally valid; nothing about the calc is inherently wrong.

For point 3, it wasn't "impressive" that Vegeta could bust the Earth. Where the heck did you get that? It was only scary and impressive because Vegeta is using his final attack which Goku absolutely had to stand in front of or else pop goes his home.

Plus this is blatantly taking the lowest interpretation possible (That it's impressive because it's planet busting) when it is equally possible that Vegeta is simply the strongest being that Goku has ever faced, period (Which is true)

 

[Stefano4444]

For point 2, it's literally just Toriyama being Toriyama; AKA inconsistent with his drawings. You can find multiple ways to calc the feat and each and all are equally valid; nothing about the calc is inherently wrong.

That seen like a crappy excuse, do you really think that the "Toriyama is inconsistent" argument is enough to valide any kind of assumptions, even the ones which have little credibility?

I mean, what chances there are that the rubble's timeframe of falling and hitting the ground, its the same exaclty the same as Piccolo's ki blast reaching and destroying the Moon?

Even if you don't think the Moon was necessarily vaporized but it was indeed shattered/destroyed, the timeframe's validity is still very fishy to me.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

5-A is an example of a feat requiring timeframe, 5-B comes from a low-balled blast speed scaling from the minimal size of the blast. More akin to PE being the baseline KE of a launching object.

 

[Stefano4444]

5-A is an example of a feat requiring timeframe, 5-B comes from a low-balled blast speed scaling from the minimal size of the blast.

The 5-B version's timeframe is also determinated by using the rubble.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...t/Dragon_Ball_Z:_Piccolo's_Moonbust_revisited

 

[Lightbuster30]

1. Why is that relevant? Bigger biggatons should never be a factor in a calc being wrong.

2. I mean, the anime had the moon explode into dozens of country sized fragements, and somehow not a single one landed on the planet or near Piccolo and Gohans vincinity.

5. So what? I don't really get this point.

 

[Kepekley23]

We also don't use author intent here, which the "planet busting was treated as scary and impressive" relies on.

The Daizenshuu states that Vegeta's Galick Gun is distinct from his other attacks in that it's designed to specifically attack a wide area as opposed to his other, more condensed attacks, too. So it's less the power of the attack, but more like its area of effect that is fearsome.

 

[Kepekley23]

Other than the above, I am neutral, however.

 

[Lightbuster30]

We also don't use author intent here, which the "planet busting was treated as scary and impressive" relies on.
The Daizenshuu states that Vegeta's Galick Gun is distinct from his other attacks in that it's designed to specifically attack a wide area as opposed to his other, more condensed attacks, too. So it's less the power of the attack, but more like its area of effect that is fearsome.

Does it specifically call his other attacks more condensed?

 

[ByAsura]

Now that I think about it, vaporization itself is also kind of assumptive. I say we just go baseline Moon level.

https://www.narutoforums.org/xfa-blog-entry/piccolo-moon-busts-dragon-ball.18403/

It's not, I've explained this so many times but this argument is still being regurgitated with little to no proof.

He wouldn't, because he doesn't care. The point was that the moon was destroyed, not that it was fragmented across space. Except for Roshi's feat.

That calc uses the same 390 metres as Amelia's, which I showed was incorrect in the OP.

If all he did was vaporize the moon from sheer heat; it wouldn't be making a loud bang that could be heard across the world. Nor would it generate a bright light that covers the sky. Plus, the vaporized gas would be cold down back into solid form fast unless they overheated it.
Plus, as others have said; Ki attacks regularly nuke stuff as opposed to just simply heat up areas. Especially if we're talking about large objects such as planets.

Unless you want Piccolo to have an added genjutsu that would enable him to hax stomp all of Naruto given it effected Vegeta when he wasn't even on Earth and King Kai. Still, he clearly blew it up and expanded it. Anyway, the calc is actually lowballed, unless we want to use option 2 for this calc. There were explained problems with the vaporization method explained in the blog.

It would, vaporizing something, unlike Star Trek phasers, produces heat, light and a massive explosion. Though I doubt Toriyama would actually care, at all, how something gets destroyed in his fictional series. That's called fiction.

Who's said that? Toriyama? So what if ki attacks generally don't destroy shit, does that mean each and every single blast in the series doesn't? Also, Kid Buu obviously vaporized the Earth, those spheres that came out had exactly the same shape and appearance as the energy explosion that blew up the Earth.

1. Why is that relevant? Bigger biggatons should never be a factor in a calc being wrong.

2. I mean, the anime had the moon explode into dozens of country sized fragements, and somehow not a single one landed on the planet or near Piccolo and Gohans vincinity.

5. So what? I don't really get this point.

• 1. Let's repeat that again. You need evidence for using the high-ball, and this is high-balled to holy hell with no timeframe.
• 2. That's non-canon.
• 3. I'm showing it wasn't pulverized, or at least not instantly.

Also, we can't argue a sometimes Vs an Always. Plus, I'm pretty sure Toriyama supervised the Anime and would consider the Anime explosion not too far off from the original manga's example.

Do you have confirmation from him to support that? Also, from this we can gather that Toriyama more influenced designs and story/filler than scenes like this.


Piccolo Destroys the Moon DBZ Eng Dub (Fun) HD

The scene itself is also very different. In the manga, it's an instant attack, in the anime Piccolo has to charge up. In the manga, light instantly protrudes from the moon, in the anime a weird circle forms around it. And lastly, we see it being destroyed in the anime, with huge fragments going everywhere.

5-A is an example of a feat requiring timeframe, 5-B comes from a low-balled blast speed scaling from the minimal size of the blast. More akin to PE being the baseline KE of a launching object.

It doesn't matter if it's high-balled or low-balled, it's wrong outside of whether it was fragmentation or vaporization.

 

[Lightbuster30]

• 1. Let's repeat that again. You need evidence for using the high-ball, and this is high-balled to holy hell with no timeframe.
• 2. That's non-canon.
• 3. I'm showing it wasn't pulverized, or at least not instantly.

1. If we have a timeframe that checks out, then it's not exactly highballed is it?

2. That doesn't counter the core of my point in the slightest. Your argument was that the pulverization is wrong because we saw no dust clouds on or near Earth. The exact argument can be used to say the same for the Anime version, which also featured none of the Moon's remains on Earth.Literally the only difference is the timeframes and the Moon was fragmented rather than pulverized/vaporized. But the same logic applies.

3. Maybe the reason it was intact because it wasn't being destroyed yet? Notice that in the very next panel Piccolo is cringing with his eyes closed, clearly feeling the explosions shockwave from Earth. Yet in the panel before that, we see none of that.

 

[ByAsura]

It doesn't check out. That's the whole point.

It does. Simple, the anime is non-canon and very different from the anime portrayal in many areas, which I already explained to Medeus. It's that simple. The anime takes after the manga, not the other way 'round, so why would they show debris on Earth if it doesn't and isn't relevant to the story?

The huge, massive blast of light came right after he fired the blast. It had already hit and exploded. Except for the massive amount of light.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Then why not look for one that does?

Right. And what stops me from using that exact same logic for the manga?

That you can see the completely intact outline of the Moon within the light tells us it wasn't even being damaged by that point.

 

[ByAsura]

There isn't one. The only time frame I could gather is Piccolo looking away when the light hits.

Because there's also literally nothing to imply there is are debris in the manga.

Or it was mostly intact.

 

[Akreious]

I mean, the timeframe makes sense to me. From the one scene we see Oozaru Gohan to Aftermath, he didn't seem to move that much to me.

 

[TataHakai]

The timeframe isn't based on his movement though, it's based on the rock that was thrown in the air, the rock was off screen when the explosion happened so the timeframe doesn't really work

 

[ByAsura]

The rock height is also wrong to begin with.

 

[AKM sama]

We dont know if loud bang was produced in manga or not

You see those large characters written across the panel? That's how a loud BANG is produced in the manga.

 

[Antvasima]

So have you reached a conclusion here yet?

 

[ByAsura]

I'm thinking we could just leave it as baseline Moon level instead of the vaporization-end because we have no valid calc or timeframe, and we don't know exactly how it was destroyed.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that seems to make sense.

 

[Stefano4444]

Personally i disagree with baseline for Piccolo's Moon busting feat, as the explosion didn't left any big chucks of rock in space, vaporisatio or pulverization should still be used.

And for a given timeframe, we did previously agree to use 5 second, this could be used instead of the one given by the falling piece of rock.

 

[ByAsura]

5 seconds was the beam's speed, not the explosion.

 

[Stefano4444]

5 seconds was the beam's speed that actually hit the moon, not the explosion.

Yeah, you're right.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

You see those large characters written across the panel? That's how a loud BANG is produced in the manga.


^^ This

Anyway, I still heavily disagree with the downgrade and it would be a better idea to calculate the face that the sound wave would have to have a 240,000+ kilometer sound wave radius among other things.

 

[TataHakai]

Probably best to go with a 5-C rating

 

[Akreious]

Baseline 5-C is the definition of completely downplaying the feat. This feat is many things but baseline is blatantly under what we see

 

[TataHakai]

There's no way to calc it with a proper timeframe even assuming the moon even exploded like that, which again, is a big assumption

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It is calcable; stuff like this has been done before. And no one is countering the stuff AKM Sama has been saying.

 

[Akreious]

And assuming it's baseline requires even more assumptions, each of the downplaying variety that contradicts what we see

 

[M3X_2.0]

This is getting more complicated and difficult to resolve than it really should be. What happens is that the Moon was destroyed. Done. This is a 5-C feat. Why waste time arguing that the pieces of the Moon went flying at a certain speed, when that was not even shown?

It is really hard to accept that destroying a Moon is... Moon level?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It destroys a moon, and it generates an explosion that's far above the moon's initial size, which requires causing the moon's shards to shatter and launch at great speeds. It's far greater than Moon level. That's why. The size of the light shining and the sound waves reaching Earth instantly is proof.

 

[M3X_2.0]

No, it it doesn't. Unless you can scientifically prove this happens in real life, to use this as an argument.

Causing an explosion bigger than Moon's size isn't a proof of "pieces flying at high speeds". You can't see any piece of the moon flying, and you don't have a timeframe.

If the pieces were sent flyinf, some of them would land on Earth, and that's not the case

 

[TataHakai]

and it generates an explosion that's far above the moon's initial size, which requires causing the moon's shards to shatter at great speeds.

Yes, shatter at great speeds, doesn't mean they were sent flying

 

[UrsaBanks]

By exploding, it necessarily means the pieces flew out from the moon though. If you can't calc the moon, calc the explosion size and see how much energy it should have from there, And if not that, then assume the explosion just, ya know, blew up the moon so good the pieces were too small to see? Vaporization is a weirdchamp interpretation. Plus, how are you gonna say an explosion that's bigger than the moon that comes from the moon itself doesn't, like... Require the pieces to be pushed apart from high speeds? Isn't that explosion science 101? I think the idea was already scientifically proven, and appealing to emotion and saying "is it really hard to accept a moon level fear as moon lvl?" Is kinda manipulative tbh

 

[UrsaBanks]

Just going with it being baseline moonlevel is totally weird tho fr fr. Like, it ignores that baseline moon level destruction doesn't look like that in the aftermath, and it's not like there aren't ways to ******, like, make a calc based on what is shown. There's "nothing" to imply debris, but nothing to imply vaporization either, righ? Asid from there being light and no debris, which isn't proof or even evidence of vaporization. If it was basic moon level explosion, you still see stuff in the sky too, so it's contradictory still. Why not go with how thing this size have been blown up in the franchise consistently and calc from there?

 

[ByAsura]

I've already explained this; far smaller dust clouds are visible from near the moon, let alone fragments from the moon itself. Vaporisation does create a massive release of kinetic energy, light and sound.

Baseline is the minimum if it's not calcable. I'm using the baseline energy to destroy the moon because the method of destruction is unknown, I'm not suggesting vaporisation anymore. That's vehemently not true.