Dragon ball(Classic) Speed + Ap upgrade

[Omegabronic]

Here is the statement. The source is Episode 104 of Dragon Ball Super. When Dyspo fights Hit.

I concede on Dyspo then

The Dyspo question is a good hint.

... i don't get it? Dyspo is not even the main point of the majority of what i said

I'm not interested in debating with you any further. Particularly given much of what you have contested is accepted on VSBW and this CRT is not related to changing that.

If you have questions regarding the verse please redirect them to the Dragon Ball General.

I am contesting on if it is even really accepted to begin with... i keep asking for the thread on the specific thing you guys keep talking about was accepted, as neither the note links the thread nor does it says what you guys are saying it says

My point is that it isn't accepted to begin with, so it shouldn't be followed, that's the main point

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I am contesting on if it is even really accepted to begin with... i keep asking for the thread on the specific thing you guys keep talking about was accepted, as neither the note links the thread nor does it says what you guys are saying it says

My point is that it isn't accepted to begin with, so it shouldn't be followed, that's the main point

I'm going to ask you again, this will be the last thing I have to say to you here.

Restate your position. Clarify what exactly it is you are trying to argue. Do so in one post. So everyone knows what you are trying to say.

 

[Omegabronic]

I am saying that the note on the verse page doesn't say that raising one your stats proportionally raises of them by the exact same amount, then i questioned where this notion came from(Which thread made this accepted) as the supposed "rule" being treated as accepted some people here is not said in the note that keep being point, then people started giving me other scans about it and i argued with them.
Admittedly, I could have made this clear, regardless, i was also on the mind that the OP is trying to implement this rule given this section of the OP:

Extra:

"Several times" is at lowball x3

Speed increases along with strength

As such, i also started giving counter arguments to this

Overall, this is likely a happening of confusion and misunderstanding from all of us

 

[TiltedFN]

I am saying that the note on the verse page doesn't say that raising one your stats proportionally raises of them by the exact same amount, then i questioned where this notion came from(Which thread made this accepted) as the supposed "rule" being treated as accepted some people here is not said in the note that keep being point, then people started giving me other scans about it and i argued with them.
Admittedly, I could have made this clear, regardless, i was also on the mind that the OP is trying to implement this rule given this section of the OP:

As such, i also started giving counter arguments to this

Overall, this is likely a happening of confusion and misunderstanding from all of us

Omega this is literally in all of our AP and Speed blogs. You have worked on multiple of them. We sent MULTIPLE scans of this also being the case which you conveniently ignored. The OP isn't adding some rule. We have been using this forever, and now all of a sudden people don't believe it. We have shown you that it is proportional. I'm done with this absolutely useless back and forth over something that is already accepted. Anymore of this will be further derailment, so I suggest you stop.

 

[AmonInChains]

didn't Goku outpace Ginyu in speed despite having a power level that was a quarter lower than his

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

What did I miss?

 

[Omegabronic]

Omega this is literally in all of our AP and Speed blogs.

No? The blogs have several instances of specific strength increases that are not documented in speed increases

You have worked on multiple of them.

two of them, one which the DBS Anime one... which doesn't use this afaik, and the other is the current AP one i did alongside @Ednaxel2, which also contained Power increases not implemented in the speed scalling blog

in fact, a recent thread on this very statement suggested by the OP was rejected a while ago, so no, it isn't "literally in all of our AP and Speed blogs", and even if it was... if it all based on something not accepted, they should be reverted

You also conveniently ignored how the note on the verse page says nothing about all stats being proportionally raised by the same amount

So i ask again, show me the thread where it was accepted that each increase in any stat increases proportionally all stats, just show me this and this will end, if not? Well... make that accepted first then make threads about how it changes the scaling

We sent MULTIPLE scans of this also being the case which you conveniently ignored.

I literally answered all of them, stop lying, i ignored NONE, i commented on each and even got a translation for the one given on the first page... if you think i ignored any, sent me which you think i ignored

The OP isn't adding some rule.

Good to know... so when was this "rule" accepted then? Cause, as i said, i found no thread on the matter, and the note doesn't say what you guys are saying it says

We have been using this forever, and now all of a sudden people don't believe it.

Appeal to tradition, fallacy, Doing it "forever" doesn't make it right, nor does it make it accepted via the rules we have here or not

We have shown you that it is proportional.

You have not, i even took the time to translated one of the examples shown to show how it wasn't... which you and everyone else ignored

I'm done with this absolutely useless back and forth over something that is already accepted.

It isn't accepted... that's the point, if you say it is show me the thread, cuz the note doesn't say it is proportional

Anymore of this will be further derailment, so I suggest you stop.

It won't be, cuz you, as it turns out, need to provide the evidence when someone asks for something, you are affirming something that that the note on the verse page doesn't say, yet you are saying it says that... that is not how this works

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

No? The blogs have several instances of specific strength increases that are not documented in speed increases


two of them, one which the DBS Anime one... which doesn't use this afaik, and the other is the current AP one i did alongside @Ednaxel2, which also contained Power increases not implemented in the speed scalling blog

in fact, a recent thread on this very statement suggested by the OP was rejected a while ago, so no, it isn't "literally in all of our AP and Speed blogs", and even if it was... if it all based on something not accepted, they should be reverted

You also conveniently ignored how the note on the verse page says nothing about all stats being proportionally raised by the same amount

So i ask again, show me the thread where it was accepted that each increase in any stat increases proportionally all stats, just show me this and this will end, if not? Well... make that accepted first then make threads about how it changes the scaling


I literally answered all of them, stop lying, i ignored NONE, i commented on each and even got a translation for the one given on the first page... if you think i ignored any, sent me which you think i ignored


Good to know... so when was this "rule" accepted then? Cause, as i said, i found no thread on the matter, and the note doesn't say what you guys are saying it says


Appeal to tradition, fallacy, Doing it "forever" doesn't make it right, nor does it make it accepted via the rules we have here or not


You have not, i even took the time to translated one of the examples shown to show how it wasn't... which you and everyone else ignored


It isn't accepted... that's the point, if you say it is show me the thread, cuz the note doesn't say it is proportional


It won't be, cuz you, as it turns out, need to provide the evidence when someone asks for something, you are affirming something that that the note on the verse page doesn't say, yet you are saying it says that... that is not how this works

If you click some of the hyperlinks regarding the amplification of statistics on the Ki Manip page. You can see Kaioken amplifying ki and increasing statistics is shown to prove that a larger ki increases statistics. Just to clarify a Ki
increase is a boost proportionally in all statistics from your body.

Manipulating and increasing the ki in the body amplifies statistics, such as strength, overall power, destructive capacity, speed, defensive force and aerial capabilities,

It wasn’t just accepted in Chrollo’s thread, but it was accepted a while ago and added onto the verse page.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Just going to put the end to the whole @Omegabronic saga. He has more or less confirmed that he hasn't really read the manga:

TiltedFN: Omega, question. When is the last time you read dragon ball? Or even just went through it a decent bit?
Omegabronic: by reading you mean from chapter 1 to the end or something else?
TiltedFN: <Meme Image>
Omegabronic: Like, when i read a manga i already completed, i usually read my favorite chapters more than binge reading all through it, some times i do that do, i am currently doing it with Pokemon Adventures, will maybe do with Digimon Xros Wars as well the manga is much better than the Anime Xros Wars... legit cry everytime lol

So, don't take his args too seriously.

 

[MeiouHades]

So, don't take his args too seriously.

Never did. Never will.

 

[Omegabronic]

Just going to put the end to the whole @Omegabronic saga. He has more or less confirmed that he hasn't really read the manga:

TiltedFN: Omega, question. When is the last time you read dragon ball? Or even just went through it a decent bit?
Omegabronic: by reading you mean from chapter 1 to the end or something else?
TiltedFN: <Meme Image>
Omegabronic: Like, when i read a manga i already completed, i usually read my favorite chapters more than binge reading all through it, some times i do that do, i am currently doing it with Pokemon Adventures, will maybe do with Digimon Xros Wars as well the manga is much better than the Anime Xros Wars... legit cry everytime lol

So, don't take his args too seriously.

Fallacies

One thing to keep in mind, is that even if someone is using a fallacy, it does not necessarily mean that their argument is not true. It merely means that they are attempting to argue for it improperly. These are the examples that apply to this wiki, with the original list written by Endless...

vsbattles.fandom.com

"This is similar to ad hominem, except it is directed against other observers instead of your opponent. You say that there is something objectionable about a person, therefore people shouldn't listen to their arguments.

Example: "Person A is known for being a biased One Piece fanboy, therefore you shouldn't listen to him when he says Luffy can beat Ichigo."

Whether or not this accusation is true, it has no merit on the actual arguments being presented."

stop with the fallacies please

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Fallacies

One thing to keep in mind, is that even if someone is using a fallacy, it does not necessarily mean that their argument is not true. It merely means that they are attempting to argue for it improperly. These are the examples that apply to this wiki, with the original list written by Endless...

vsbattles.fandom.com

"This is similar to ad hominem, except it is directed against other observers instead of your opponent. You say that there is something objectionable about a person, therefore people shouldn't listen to their arguments.

Example: "Person A is known for being a biased One Piece fanboy, therefore you shouldn't listen to him when he says Luffy can beat Ichigo."

Whether or not this accusation is true, it has no merit on the actual arguments being presented."

stop with the fallacies please

Lol really? I mean I think your lack of Dragon Ball knowledge has shown itself for the last three pages.

 

[Omegabronic]

If you click some of the hyperlinks regarding the amplification of statistics on the Ki Manip page. You can see Kaioken amplifying ki and increasing statistics is shown to prove that a larger ki increases statistics. Just to clarify a Ki
increase is a boost proportionally in all statistics from your body.

I did click all of these links... literally none of them say anything about the increase being proportional to all stats, it simply says that Ki increases all stats... which was never denied

Manipulating and increasing the ki in the body amplifies statistics, such as strength, overall power, destructive capacity, speed, defensive force and aerial capabilities,

It wasn’t just accepted in Chrollo’s thread, but it was accepted a while ago and added onto the verse page.

What was accepted is that increasing Ki increases all stats, that is not the point of contention here

The note you quoted doesn't say the increase is proportionate to all stats, that's the point that no one is seemingly getting

 

[Omegabronic]

Lol really? I mean I think your lack of Dragon Ball knowledge has shown itself for the last three pages.

yes... what you have said, even if true, has no bearing on the argument being made... as it involves something on the wiki

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

I did click all of these links... literally none of them say anything about the increase being proportional to all stats, it simply says that Ki increases all stats... which was never denied


What was accepted is that increasing Ki increases all stats, that is not the point of contention here

The note you quoted doesn't say the increase is proportionate to all stats, that's the point that no one is seemingly getting

Dude read the scan that’s being used as evidence on the page. It LITERALLY talks about how speed, power, and defense are all multiplied by a larger ki, and the second scan literally says all of those things are doubled. That’s LITERALLY proportional. I don’t see how you’re ignoring a blatant scan that’s on the page.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

yes... what you have said, even if true, has no bearing on the argument being made... as it involves something on the wiki

I mean ignoring all the evidence is an interesting strategy. Don't know how well it will work.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

So is there like a reason why every single DB crt on the wiki even if simple or blatant gets yapped 50 pages without fail each and every single time.
This is like that one CRT where opposition was legitimately arguing “the anime timeframe cannot be used for the manga as it’s an unfaithful adaption due to lines not looking like motion lines!!!”

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

So is there like a reason why every single DB crt on the wiki even if simple or blatant gets yapped 50 pages without fail each and every single time.
This is like that one CRT where opposition was legitimately arguing “the anime timeframe cannot be used for the manga as it’s an unfaithful adaption due to lines not looking like motion lines!!!”

Obtuseness and stone walling. If something isn't spelled out verbatim, or if any semblance of reasoning is required, then it's this.

We could see a blue moon, but if nobody says its a blue moon than its 'where is it implied the moon is blue'.

Its a consistent effort to downplay. Its obvious bias from a verse opponent who wants to prevent upgrades and make threads needlessly difficult via hair splitting.

It'll happen again in a little bit, watch.

 

[Gp972]

Guys i got something, Goku Raditz saga should be 2x 23rd Tournament Saga Goku

1.8c and 26 Yottatons

"He's managed to double the strength he achieved with Kami-sama. By doing the Kamehameha, his strength increases to 1000!"

 

[StarShooter80]

So is there like a reason why every single DB crt on the wiki even if simple or blatant gets yapped 50 pages without fail each and every single time.
This is like that one CRT where opposition was legitimately arguing “the anime timeframe cannot be used for the manga as it’s an unfaithful adaption due to lines not looking like motion lines!!!”

It’s really an annoying process to undergo, it causes threads to get derailed, or too lengthy for any mod to care wasting their time on.

Guys i got something, Goku Raditz saga should be 2x 23rd Tournament Saga Goku

1.8c and 26 Yottatons

"He's managed to double the strength he achieved with Kami-sama. By doing the Kamehameha, his strength increases to 1000!"

Is there a Japanese translation? If I recall this is from the Super Exciting guide but I may be wrong. If you want to, add this to the OP so then everything is properly presented

 

[Gp972]

Is there a Japanese translation? If I recall this is from the Super Exciting guide but I may be wrong. If you want to, add this to the OP so then everything is properly presented

Yeah, i got one, so i should edit the thread?

 

[StarShooter80]

Yeah, i got one, so i should edit the thread?

Ask for a translation to see if it’s right, then put it

 

[Gp972]

Ask for a translation to see if it’s right, then put it

Oh, okay

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Fallacies

One thing to keep in mind, is that even if someone is using a fallacy, it does not necessarily mean that their argument is not true. It merely means that they are attempting to argue for it improperly. These are the examples that apply to this wiki, with the original list written by Endless...

vsbattles.fandom.com

"This is similar to ad hominem, except it is directed against other observers instead of your opponent. You say that there is something objectionable about a person, therefore people shouldn't listen to their arguments.

Example: "Person A is known for being a biased One Piece fanboy, therefore you shouldn't listen to him when he says Luffy can beat Ichigo."

Whether or not this accusation is true, it has no merit on the actual arguments being presented."

stop with the fallacies please

Lord have mercy just admit your stonewalling.

 

[Gp972]

Bump

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

Ask for a translation to see if it’s right, then put it

It's the one that says his power nearly doubled from training with Kami

 

[Gp972]

It's the one that says his power nearly doubled from training with Kami

It's the Raditz saga Goku, and the only time he trained with Kami was before the 23rd tournament.

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

It's the Raditz saga Goku, and the only time he trained with Kami was before the 23rd tournament.

 

[Gp972]

It's Goku raditz saga

He have 416 power
With his Kamehameha 924(nearly 1000)

It says vs raditz in his name

And the spanish version says

He managed to doble the strength the strength achievex with Kamisama

And thats the chinese translation

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

I checked the Japanese with MTL and it said the same thing.

 

[Gp972]

I checked the Japanese with MTL and it said the same thing.

That text is not referring to the Goku from the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, because from the very beginning, the text clearly indicates that it's about the battle against Raditz. The first kanjis literally say “Against Raditz,” and the number shown, 416, matches the power level recorded by Raditz’s scouter when he scanned Goku at that moment. Additionally, it mentions that Goku's power rises close to 1000 when charging the Kamehameha, which also aligns with what Raditz's scouter measured during the attack: 924. All of this firmly places the scene in the Raditz saga.

If the text were referring to Goku from the 23rd Tournament, it wouldn’t make sense for the guide to mention a "growth close to double," because we already know that Goku at that point was far stronger than his version from the King Piccolo arc. In fact, Piccolo Jr. himself stated that his power had grown several times over, and Goku was still stronger than him. In a grammatical context, "several times" is commonly interpreted as at least three times, so saying "double" would fall short if it were talking about that stage. That’s why the phrase only makes sense if it’s comparing Goku in the Raditz saga to Goku from the 23rd Tournament, where a near doubling in power fits with the numbers and narrative.

Now, maybe you would argue: “Then why does it say ‘double’? That fits if Goku had 260 after drinking the Ultra Divine Water, and now he has 416.” And sure, if you ignore all the other points, that’s a valid argument. But keep in mind that no official power level was ever given for Goku during the 23rd Tournament, and power levels in Dragon Ball were never handled with consistent logic. For example, young King Piccolo—who was stronger than his old version—was given a power level of 260. However, his older self, with less than half that power, still managed to defeat Goku when he had 180. If you do the math, it doesn’t really make sense. And if we follow that same loose logic of what "fits," we could just say that 260 was the last recorded power level for Goku, and that’s why they used it as the comparison to say "double"—but that’s a weak assumption. In the end, it doesn’t matter much, because the other arguments are far stronger and clearly support that the text refers to Goku during the Raditz saga.

Also the machine gave you that translation because you didn't give it enough context.

 

[Gp972]

Bump

 

[Gp972]

Bump

 

[Gp972]

Bump, i made a bit of changes on the op

 

[Nullflowerblush]

-snip-

Ain't how the language works. "倍近い成長" is a noun phrase; "growth" + (い) "nearly double" = "nearly double growth".

Goku achieved nearly double growth; he did not nearly double any specific growth from any specific source because the "growth" in question was what he gained through (で) Kami's training. Regardless of whether you think the text should be referring to Piccolo Jr. Saga Goku or Raditz Saga Goku, the only two ways the sentence can be accurately translated are: (1) "Goku achieved nearly double growth by training with Kami" or (2) "By training with Kami, Goku achieved nearly doubled growth".

Not that that really matters since he'd already scale above a Piccolo who is >3x more powerful than what Goku scales to before.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

thank you for reminding me about that part of forever though because i finally got my hands on both books which means i can use them in my scaling chains finally

 

[Gp972]

Ain't how the language works. "倍近い成長" is a noun phrase; "growth" + (い) "nearly double" = "nearly double growth".

Goku achieved nearly double growth; he did not nearly double any specific growth from any specific source because the "growth" in question was what he gained through (で) Kami's training. Regardless of whether you think the text should be referring to Piccolo Jr. Saga Goku or Raditz Saga Goku, the only two ways the sentence can be accurately translated are: (1) "Goku achieved nearly double growth by training with Kami" or (2) "By training with Kami, Goku achieved nearly doubled growth".

Not that that really matters since he'd already scale above a Piccolo who is >3x more powerful than what Goku scales to before.

It doesn't make sense, Goku only trained with Kamisama before tournament 23, why would they put Goku saga raditz as if he trained with Kamisama at that point?

Plus, the Spanish translation is official, so it's more reliable than a fan-made one.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Past tense.

 

[Gp972]

Past tense.

So like Goku radifz saga is still x2 23 Tournament Goku?

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Minor Bump