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Pretty much yes to all of that.
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You don’t have to.Low 2-C Palaces.
Arguments for: Palace’s are stated to be a mirror of the real world by various reliable sources, with no discernible evidence against this, with various characters saying things outside of the heavily distorted distortion being just as normal. This is further proven by moons, suns, and entire star clusters appearing in the sky. The word “world”, “dimension”, and “reality”, is often used to denote “universe” when it comes to contextual realms like this, with characters such as Marie, Databooks, Morgana, Elizabeth, Philemon, Maruki, who are all incredibly knowledgeable on the Metaverse.
Arguments against: We don't know what size palaces are, world doesn't denote size, so there's nothing for us to assume size off of besides what we can actually see and demonstrably prove. (From Dargoo) World doesn’t always mean universe, and requires context.
2-B Umr-at-Tawil & Scaling:
Arguments for: Umr passively and casually holds up countless realities with his very existence, even whilst fighting the P2 Cast.
Arguments against: We have vague or no standards for sustaining feats, this is no longer a Persona-verse problem, as other characters have sustaining feats as well (D&D, 682).
Immeasurable Speed:
Denied and getting removed anyways.
Lifting Strength:
Unanimously agreed on. However, Dargoo believes Mada’s universal lifting strength should be held off on till Low 2-C is dealt with.
Limitless Mental Stamina:
Denied due to extrapolation and not enough evidence.
Range:
Denied due to no reason to assume all spells have the same range as Cosmic Flare & Morning Star.
Yaldabaoth mindhax:
Unanimously agreed on.
Didn’t you say you were neutral on that, leaning towards agreement? Granted it was like 3 weeks ago, so.Low 2C I contest for all the previous reasons
Take your time.Yeah that was three weeks ago, I may have to reread everything again to be sure
Again. That is a problem of semantics, not necessarily logic. At this point, it's valid either way, so it's more or less a pure difference in opinion considering there are no wiki standards to point in either direction. Which is entirely why we're putting this to a vote among active contributors and members who can be trusted to be unbiased and reasonable.There's no evidence to palaces being universes. It's just a word association.
The Low 2-C Palaces are logically sound and are supported by the majority of scans. The only actual issue is that the interpretation can be thrown off severely if we posit the idea that the phrases "parallel world" and "alternate reality" don't necessarily refer to universes, despite direct allusion to the many worlds theory and many allusions to hindu concepts of the universe.That is not how we treat possible or likely rating at all, those ratings are for things that have been Accepted, but the evidence itself leaves room for interpretation or the staff who accepted it are still unsure. It's not for when theirs a deadlock between people who accept and the people who reject a CRT.
Stop with the snarkiness please. I have seen Eficiente and Matthew recurrently display high-level critical thinking elsewhere, so I do trust their abilities in this regard. The problem is that Matthew at least does not always make any effort in his responses.Ah yes, great critical thinking skills at work here.
The argument here is that Palaces are reflections of the real world as a whole, including external areas that are not immediately warped by their owner's worldview, and the first scan showing that this can extend into outer space-like areas is supposed to prove that the Palaces mimic the universe in general as opposed to just their immediate surroundings, yes?All Palace Rulers are Low 2-C at minimum via scaling to the size of their Palaces.
The scans just seem to indicate that Umr's death would dissolve the boundaries between the individual consciousness of the characters and the collective unconscious of humanity as a whole, hence why they refer primarily to the boundaries "between the collective unconscious and your human knowledge," and to their individuality being lost should those cease to exist. All of that stuff seems to be talking about destruction on the mental level, not some multiversal event that will destroy reality.Umr-at-Tawil from Persona 2 Eternal Punishment scales to the size of the entire Collective Unconscious, which is a countless 2-B structure.
This is actually proven by Yaldabaoth merging Mementos (a Low 2-C structure) with the universe, as to which Mementos is a Palace. Since Palace’s are reflections of the real world, it should also go to show that it’ll extend past the observable universe. It isn’t the first time Cognition has created entirely new space-times, as Maki created another world via her own will, and Maruki created a new one based on the desires of the Phantom Thieves, etc.If that's the case, then I'd be fine with saying the Palaces are Universal in scale, though I don't exactly understand why that would be Low 2-C and not just 3-A, given how the difference between the observable, spatial universe and the spacetime continuum as a whole is... Well, pretty big, and I'd want more evidence that Cognition extends this far.
It's because all of existence depends on the existence of the CU. The destruction of the CU would mean the destruction of the concepts that make up the physical world, since the physical world became a subset of the CU the moment the CU was formed. The destruction of the CU being synonymous with the destruction of the physical world is also outright stated by Virochana in a scan I posted earlier in this thread. Gimme a sec to find it.I am aware of all that, yes. My issue is that the scan itself doesn't state that Umr's death would lead to the physical world's destruction, just the destruction of the boundaries of the Collective Unconscious, which would in turn cause the characters to lose their individuality and have their consciousness dissolved into that of humanity's. As far as I see, the 2-B statements are all done while in reference to the physical world, so why would that feat scale to them?