Persona 3 Protagonist vs Persona 5 Protagonist

[MattadorProne]

You are completly incorrect about the nature of resistance to resistance negation, allow me to explain.

"Resistance Negation (actively with Break skills, passively with [Gun attacks and Almighty spells, which bypass Elemental Resistances"

Note the distinction between active and passive. An active use is the break skills. All they do is negate resistance and are therefore completly nullified. Almighty and gun skills are Energy Projection and Weapon/Gun skills first, with the effect of resistance nullification second (passively). They do not remove resistances like break skills, they bypass them.

If a charcter for example had immumity to energy projectiles (energy projectiles are used by almost all personas), Megidolao (which is just a large energy projectile) will bypass that and hit them full force (due to its resistance negation). Makoto does indeed have immunity to energy projectiles which is the first part of the actual justification for being immune to the almighty spells thrown at him. However Megidolaon does not bypass this resistance in game (it is nulled), so he is given resistance to resistance negation as the second part to account for that. It is the same reason why Joker has both as well (Rays of Control). Joker was immune to energy projectiles, and resistance to resistance negation made that resistance unable to be bypassed. What if they had resistance to resistance negation with no immunity to energy projectiles? It would hit them like normal, since no normal personas resist almighty attacks. Resistance negation can only apply to resistances one already has.

Since Makoto has no gun resistance, Sinful Shell will deal normal damage with its tremendous AP intact. Sinful shell is a gun attack (Fires a bullet composed of the Seven Deadly Sins to negate Immortality and deal colossal Almighty damage to 1 foe). It is not an energy projectile or physical skill. It is also not just resistance negation since we see it can deal damage and that explanation alone would not account for that (unless a character drops dead from having their resistances removed). It being almighty is game mechanic, we would in the same manner not say the Great Seal is a physical skill due to requiring HP to cast.

 

[MattadorProne]

@JesterofGames Lol I had actaully forgotton Messiah is weak to curse attacks: weak to Darkness Manipulation and Curse Manipulation (P5 first made non-instakill light and dark attacks, before these would all be the same thing as death manip.). I don't know if we are considering Nyx's Death as Death Manipulation but if we are Makoto should likely resist that (beyond the base amount allowed to all persona users; was able to survive but still took heavy damage; something like a greater resistance). However he has no reistance to the other two as far as I can see. Sataneal carries Maeigaon.

 

[DarkGrath]

My apologies everyone, but I'm feeling quite unwell today. I plan to continue this discussion, and I might even respond later on today if I'm up to it. But I won't be active on the VBW until at least tomorrow. My apologies again.

 

[Thatsafloridathing]

Hope you get well soon man

 

[MattadorProne]

Take all the time you need to feel better; there is no rush.

 

[DarkGrath]

Hey guys! Alright, I'm back. I wanted to let you all know that today I've been dealing with a... well, a bit of a conflict with a good friend of mine. Normally under any stressful conditions I'd just take a day off the wiki, but... well, I agreed I'd respond ASAP. I'll be active on the wiki for a little while longer today, I just said this because I wanted to let you all know in advance that I'm on a bit of a short fuse, so I apologise if I become aggressive. Thank you all for your patience with me, and I'll try my best to be polite in return. With that out of the way, my response.

"Sinful Shell is a gun attack"

No. It's fired out of a gun, yes. And it takes the form of a bullet. But in the context of actual skills, there is nothing in-game that even remotely differentiates it from any other almighty attack. The fact that it is fired out of a gun does not change this in the slightest. It's a particularly powerful almighty attack, that is capable of negating Type 8 Immortality, but not a gun-type attack in the slightest. And even if you look at the bullet itself, it quite clearly is not even remotely a normal bullet. It's an attack made out of whatever kind of energy Almighty attacks are made out of, and would be nullified if the "Almighty energy" could be nullified. Any claims beyond that are pure conjecture, to put it bluntly.

The situation here is being vastly overcomplicated. Almighty attacks are a special kind of energy, that is considered here on the wiki to be Resistance Negation. So people who can nullify Almighty Attacks get Resistance to Resistance Negation. Makoto can nullify Death, an almighty attack, so he gets the Resistance. Sinful Shell is also an almighty attack. Apart from things like animations, potentially damage output, and the Type 8 negation, there is nothing conclusive that separates the two attacks that doesn't require conjecture. As such, Makoto can nullify Death, therefore, he can nullify Almighty Attacks, therefore, he can nullify Sinful Shell. There is no reason for it to be as complicated as it's being made out to be.

"The rest shouldn't be several times weaker to the point they couldn't do a ton of damage to Yaldabaoth"

Let me rephrase what I said. No, I am not suggesting that every single attack Ren has would suddenly be hogwash. He should still be able to deal okay damage with his other attacks. But there is nothing to suggest it should even remotely be on the same level as Sinful Shell, so having Sinful Shell be negated is a massive detriment to his AP.

Also, the only possible way we have of actually measuring this AP difference is by using those skills in NG+. While this seems dubious, the very fact that Satanael has any skills outside of Sinful Shell is purely due to his NG+ appearance. He doesn't have any of his normal skills in the final battle. As such, this is the only way we have of measuring the actual strength of these skills. At best, these skills are able to harm Yaldabaoth's arms, but they still do almost nothing to Yaldabaoth himself. Whereas Sinful Shell, the main AP feat Ren is attributed to, managed to one-shot Yaldabaoth.

Now again, despite that point on NG+ I already made, I do still find that to be a dubious way of measuring the strength of his other skills. But even if you believe that they should be far stronger, practically anything beyond the assumption that it would deal mild damage to Yaldabaoth would be borderline wank, even with the little information we have on hand.

I'm not denying that Ren could do some damage with his other skills. But they are clearly not even remotely comparable to Sinful Shell, and so taking Sinful Shell out of the picture is a massive detriment to him.

"Satanael carries Maeigaon, Messiah is weak to Curse skills"

This is actually a genuinely reasonable point. The fact that Makoto is weak to curse skills should make that a problem. However... not nearly as much a problem as you probably think.

Maeigaon only deals Heavy curse damage, whereas all of Satanael's other elemental skills deal Severe damage. Against an enemy with no resistances either way, a Severe attack would deal more damage than a Heavy attack. That much is obvious. But a Heavy attack that the enemy is weak to only deals slightly more damage than a Severe attack that the enemy is not weak to (unless you are playing on Merciless difficulty, where these effects are amped up. But that's just pure game mechanics). As such, while Maeigaon would deal more damage than any of Satanael's other attacks, it wouldn't be by all that great of a margin.

You might also argue that it could be useful since it would knock Makoto down. To which I'd ask... why? In gameplay, it can be really useful because it allows them to go in for an All-Out Attack. But Ren can't do that alone. And Makoto would only take a second to get up anyway. The only major advantage this would provide him would be that Ren could (potentially) get another turn to attack, which... even for Persona, that's seriously stretching into game mechanics, given how it assumes the turn based system to be existent in-world (which is simply absurd).

Also, we're assuming that Ren would even figure out that Messiah is weak to Curse. Ren's opening move with Satanael would be Sinful Shell. In the event that get's nullified, Ren would then switch to his other options. With that in mind, why would he pick Maeigaon? As mentioned before, it only deals heavy damage while every other attack deals Severe damage. Chances are, he'd stick with a move once he knew that it worked against Makoto. In which case, he could logically go the entire battle without even trying Maeigaon once.

Again, this is a genuinely good point, and an advantage I'd say Ren has. But is it really that great of an advantage? I'm quite doubtful.

 

[Jesterofgames]

>Why would ren use an attack he didn't know works over an attack he could use the entire battle that does more damage.

Too search for weaknesses. Not to mention what about my other point about Makoto's only has one attack with messiah (god hand.) that will affect Ren with satanael and even then Ren takes less damage from that. I would also point out Godhand also eats into Makoto's health which he needs for the great seal but then I remembered Messiah also has Salvation.

Either way. Anything Makoto could hit Ren with would be negated or resisted with Satanael But Ren can use a nuke and Curse skills to harm Makoto without any issues.

Also I have to wonder are you implying Messiah's moves are around equal to sinfull shell or stronger then ren's normal moves. Messiah doesn't have any AP feats that suggest it could one shot or do major damage to Yaldaboth or nyx. It just sealed away Nyx from Erebus. I'm not trying to say your wanking Makoto I am just curious as to your reasoning.


Also by the way shocked you did not mention Makoto does in fact have resistance to gun skills.

As Aigis' basic attack launched with guns shows guns fall under piercing which Messiah nullifies. So Satanael's Riot gun wouldn't work.

 

[MattadorProne]

@JesterofGames there is nothing to back your statement of gun attacks being equivilant to pierce.

-The guns Aigis uses are real while the P5 squads are not; they are based off cognition and magical in nature.

-Double fangs, a piece skill in P3, is equated as a physical skill in P4 and P5. Twin Shot, Torrent Shot and Poison Shot, for example are also physical skills in P4.

-Gun, strike, slash and pierce skills are equalted as physical in Q2

We could go by the notion that all slash/pierce/strike/gun skills are physical but that does not translate back to P5, where physical and gun are seperate. Therefore it makes the most sense to just keep them seperate as neutral damage (since we lack definiative evidence and what we do have is contradictory)

 

[MattadorProne]

@DarkGrath

This is all based on the fact that Sinful shell has an almighty icon next to it? Because the Great Seal does too (The small nuclear symbol). And since sealing only bypasses conventional durability it would not bypass resistances (which Ren has the same feats and abilities listed to negate Almighty moves). By this logic the Great Seal is also an almighty attack and is nulled by Ren. Either they both work or they both fail.

 

[MattadorProne]

I apologize for the potato quality of the images.

 

[MattadorProne]

A clearer replacement for the first image

 

[DarkGrath]

I'm doubtful that the Great Seal would even be counted as an attack in the first place, as it does not directly attack the enemy in any physical way, and we see in The Answer that all it did was act as a seal to separate and contain Erebus. The fact that it had an almighty symbol next to it was more likely just because all the abilities in the game had to have a symbol next to it.

Even so, I'm willing to agree to disagree on that point, since there's a perfectly fair argument to be made for both sides there. If you still believe that it means the Great Seal would be nullified, so be it. It doesn't change much in the end though, since we already agreed by now that Makoto would have a very small chance of actually using it.

Also, just to clarify, I am not stating that Makoto's attacks are the best in the world here for this match. I am not stating that he'd one-shot Nyx or anything, that'd be pure wank. But with regards to my aforementioned problems with the scaling chain, both Makoto and Ren should have relatively equal AP (though with some minor problems meaning Ren probably has a slight advantage). Even so, this is negated by what I've mentioned before about Sinful Shell being nullified (which severely hinders Ren's AP) and Makoto's Empowerment (which made him nearly impossible to kill by even Nyx). While it would still be difficult, if we ignore the factor of the Great Seal (which we've been insisting on for quite some time) then the match comes down to AP and Durability. Ren gets massively debilitated in AP by not being able to use Sinful Shell, and Makoto only gets slightly debilitated in AP due to his best attack being resisted (and even then it could land a critical). Whereas Makoto gets Empowerment, essentially giving him an artificial AP boost beyond which Ren has ever bypassed, and Ren does not get anything that would suggest a massive increase in Durability.

If the Great Seal is ignored, and it comes down to AP and Durability, I'd still say Makoto takes the win.

Also, about the piercing point. While I do think that comparing Aigis' gun attack to Riot Gun is plausible, I'd have to disagree with saying that Makoto is definitely resistant to Gun attacks. Again, it's plausible, and worth discussion, but it seems like too much conjecture to me. It doesn't change much though, since there's still nothing to suggest that Sinful Shell would transform into a gun attack.

 

[Solacis]

Ren does not negate Almighty. He negates/resists Resistance Negation and Energy Projection. The same applies to Makoto. Both Death and Rays of Control are energy blasts with inherent resistance negation. Thus, they only nullify the associated abilities.

"Almighty" is a blanket category we apply to attacks that inherently bypass resistances in Persona. Unless you're capable of arguing that one feat of negating an Almighty spell is enough to grant invulnerability to every ability associated with Almighty and not sound like a total wanker, then there's no reason to assume that the Great Seal will be negated, nor would the same apply to Sinful Shell, which clearly isn't an energy blast either.

 

[MattadorProne]

Ren does not negate Almighty. He negates/resists Resistance Negation and Energy Projection. The same applies to Makoto. Both Death and Rays of Control are energy blasts with inherent resistance negation. Thus, they only nullify the associated abilities.
"Almighty" is a blanket category we apply to attacks that inherently bypass resistances in Persona. Unless you're capable of arguing that one feat of negating an Almighty spell is enough to grant invulnerability to every ability associated with Almighty and not sound like a total wanker, then there's no reason to assume that the Great Seal will be negated, nor would the same apply to Sinful Shell, which clearly isn't an energy blast either.

I agree. This is the point I was attempting to convey (although I probably did a poor job at it). Both abilities should work. The burden of proof lies on disproving them in this case rathar than proving them.

Simply put, immunity to energy Projection provides the nullification, and resistance to resitance Negation prevents the bypassing of this aforementioned immunity.

 

[DarkGrath]

Again, that's still conjecture.

Almighty is a very wide category, sure. It applies to a lot of things, but it is very clearly shown in-game to be its own attack category, just like every other attack. We consider characters who can negate ice attacks to negate all ice attacks within the series. We consider characters who can negate nuclear attacks to negate all nuclear attacks within the series. This is always the logic used completely regardless of what form the attack visibly takes, because the series has demonstrated it to be true time and time again. Attacks like Frei and Cosmic Flare are completely visually distinct when it comes to how the energy of the attack is projected towards the opponent. One is projectile, the other is a blast, yet they are both considered nuclear attacks, and anyone who can negate one of them can negate the other. Yes, as an attack category, it's quite unique and has a very broad range. But the series has already shown many times that the form in which the energy is projected towards the opponent has nothing to do with whether they resist it. Case and point, there is no reason for Almighty skills to be the exception here.

 

[ShivaShakti]

''Lesbian noises''

 

[Solacis]

It is not conjecture, Grath. If anything, what you're claiming is conjecture.

It's never been flat-out stated that either Makoto or Ren could null Almighty as an element. Simply that they nullified attacks that are classified as Almighty. Assuming that Ren and Makoto can nullify Almighty as a whole based on a single feat of nullifying an Almighty attack is guesswork and unsubstantiated.

Fire is still fire, Ice is still Ice. All forms of Nuclear attacks take the form of irradiated explosions. All forms of Psychokinesis attack the mind. Meanwhile, there are Almighty ailments and Almighty absorptions, Almighty physical attacks and so on. The level of variation between the different attacks is on a different scale entirely.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

I'm voting Ren.

Higher AP according to Solacis' scaling chain, more elements and abilities to draw from overall, and Makoto isn't likely to use the great seal in this fight considering it isn't exactly a battle for the fate of the world.

 

[MattadorProne]

Agreed. Ren has more win conditions and versatility:

-Makotos weakness to curse element, which Sataneal carries. Would effectivly allow for Ren to "move twice per turn", temporarily stun Makoto, or a relative equivalent.

-Ren's nuclear (and Psy moves) are effectivly almighty moves with technical damage potential. Gun attacks are also unresisted by Makoto.

-Ren no longer needing SP; victory via stalling (Makoto can regen 7 SP and 6% HP per turn, but most powerful moves require significantly more of both. Makoto can use Spirit Drain for a net gain of 15 SP)

-Advantage in range and overall versatility (guns, acrobatics allowing for dodging, third eye allows for enhanced senses)

-Sataneal resists every element and nulls bless and curse. Though, to be fair, I'm unsure how we would equate the physical resistances.

-Sinful Shell spam. Has shown no limits in number of uses and it should be an extremly powerful attack.

-Staus aliments leading to Makoto's incapatation. Ren is immune to mental status while using Sataneal.

Makoto Win Conditions (so far; not an exhaustive list by any means):

-Possibly with the Great Seal. Only noted to work on Erebus so may not work on the stronger Ren. Difficult for Makoto to use based on its requirements, can miss (Ren has dodged the larger scale Big Bang Burger Attack), and is unlikely to be used at all due to being out of character and against human survival instinct.

Debunked Makoto Win Conditions:

-Armageddon (Would not one or likely even two shot based on Elizabeth's scaling. Would use up at least 50% of Makoto's SP whereas Ren can infinitely heal to full)

I would also like to note empowerment is not useful in this kind of battle. By definition it is circumstantial and would require something like Ren or Makoto's friends to be in danger to activate further. I say further as it is partially the basis for the awakening of Ultimate personas, but that is already included in key.

 

[Tonygameman]

Joker FRA.

 

[DarkGrath]

It is not conjecture, Grath. If anything, what you're claiming is conjecture.

It's never been flat-out stated that either Makoto or Ren could null Almighty as an element. Simply that they nullified attacks that are classified as Almighty. Assuming that Ren and Makoto can nullify Almighty as a whole based on a single feat of nullifying an Almighty attack is guesswork and unsubstantiated.

Fire is still fire, Ice is still Ice. All forms of Nuclear attacks take the form of irradiated explosions. All forms of Psychokinesis attack the mind. Meanwhile, there are Almighty ailments and Almighty absorptions, Almighty physical attacks and so on. The level of variation between the different attacks is on a different scale entirely.

You're still completely ignoring my argument here. The reason it is conjecture is because there is no proof whatsoever that the elemental resistances are based on how the energy of the attack is projected. Even when there is variance in attacks within an attack type, it has no impact on whether or not the attack is nullified.

To date, there has not been a single mention or scrap of evidence throughout the series even suggesting that resistances are based on anything other than the attack type. And as we've seen with every other attack type, nullifying just one move means you can nullify all of them. Almighty moves may have more variance than other types, but there is still clear variance, regardless of the attack type.

So, 1: The variance in the way that the attack is projected has never been proven to have an impact on whether the attack is resisted

2: Attack types other than Almighty still have great deals of variance, even if to not quite the same extent

3: Even if you argue that all attacks of the different types are the same kind of energy, the only evidence for this is the identical colour palette which also applies to Almighty attacks

4: With every single other attack type, nullifying one move has been demonstratively shown to mean you can nullify every move, with little reason to suggest that Almighty would be the exception.

The reason I'm calling your argument conjecture isn't to sound fancy. Bouncing the conjecture argument back at me won't do anything, because your argument is genuinely conjecture. I've seen conjecture used so, so many times in DMC discussions due to the lack of information the series gives to the player, and it is rejected 100% of the time. I have seen these exact kinds of arguments rejected over and over again, and I'm not going to pretend that it's valid now.

 

[Tyranno223]

I'd say Joker for FRA just has way more win conditions, which he's also way more likely to use before Makoto.

 

[DarkGrath]

Alright, let me just sum up my points here.

The argument about how the energy is projected affecting whether or not the attack is nullified requires coming to a completely definitive conclusion based on data that is incomplete and beliefs that are plausible at best from what we see. That is literally the definitio of conjecture, and an argument from conjecture is inherently invalid. This also applies to the argument that Almighty attacks is a purely blanket term, as it requires assuming that Almighty attacks have inherently different kinds of energy when there is nothing to suggest this. There's not even a proper debate to be had on this point, it is conjecture.

With that in mind, Makoto can nullify Almighty attacks because

1: He's nullified an Almighty attack before 2: The series has consistently shown through its logic that nullifying one attack of any type allows you to nullify all attacks of that type. This has been depicted and replicated consistently throughout the series.

This falls under a valid argument format. The series has shown consistently that if you can nullify "x", you can nullify anything in the "set" that "x" is apart of. Makoto can nullify "x" (which in this case is Death), and Death is apart of the set of Almighty Attacks. Therefore, Makoto can nullify Almighty Attacks, going off of the logic the series has shown. Sinful Shell is an Almighty Attack, Makoto can nullify Almighty Attacks, therefore Makoto can nullify Sinful Shell.

So why does this matter? Because Ren has no feats of strength with his other skills even close to Sinful Shell. Sinful Shell is scaled based on the fact that it could one-shot Yaldabaoth. The only feats we have of his other skills are from either different Personas, or by using Satanael in NG+. In both cases, Satanael's other skills are barely even able to touch Yaldabaoth.

Also, even if we use the scaling chain suggested by Solacis, only making the changes I suggested that he himself explicitly agreed with, Ren would have AP with Sinful Shell at best roughly comparable to Nyx. Nyx, while spamming their strongest attack (which with the previous comment in mind, should be roughly comparable to Sinful Shell) was not even able to kill Makoto while he was already on the last inch of his life.

If Sinful Shell And Death Are at all comparable, then this would mean that even if Sinful Shell wasn't nullified, it would still be incredibly difficult for Ren to properly kill him. If even a move that one-shot Yaldabaoth couldn't finish the job, then assuming that Ren could get the win using skills that can hardly even harm Yaldabaoth would be complete wank.

Also, it'd be absurd to say that Maeigaon would allow Ren to "get another turn". Even by Persona standards, the JRPG turn based battle system is very clearly game mechanics. Also, while Makoto is weak to curse attacks, the chance that he would actually attempt to use Maeigaon is being exaggerated. It's the weakest of all of Satanael's major skills, meaning that at most we can assume reasonably that he wouldn't try it until trying out everything else first. Also, even with the weakness in mind, because it's only a heavy attack compared to his severe attacks, at best this would still only deal slightly more damage than a normal attack. We've already established that this is not much compared to what Makoto has easily tanked.

The only major win-con for Ren I can agree with is ailments. Even so, the chance that Ren has ailments on Satanael is low at best, and should not be assumed. Most likely, to even try an ailment would require switching out of Satanael, which would give him a massive penalty to his durability.

Also, as a parting note, I just wanted to say that I'm likely going to take a break from this thread for a few days (and likely Persona threads in general). This discussion has, admittedly, been leaving me very burnt out, and I'd hate to lose interest in Vs Debating as a whole because of it. I'll still likely be active on Devil May Cry threads, since there are some major revisions going on, and if you want me to respond to something on here or on a different Persona thread just let me know on my message wall. But for now, I'm taking a break.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I love how a summary of your points is still a wall of text someone has to read.

 

[AllanShadow78]

Does ren's gun fire here or is it useless ?

 

[MattadorProne]

His gun works. There in no proof in game for nullification. What this argument is based on is one instance where an almighty move possibly is nullified (since it is the profile writer's interpertation). However even the profile refutes this statement since, without more evidence, we cannot justifiably state whether it can apply to more cases (listed to only work on energy projections which a gun attack is not, being a physical bullet).

Somehow that is being overblown and extended to all cases. The justification given by @DarkGrath is that it should apply to all types of attack formats like in game resistances do. However that is unsubstantiated and false equvilancy. Saying a single instance, that could honestly be labeled off as Plot-Induced Stupidity, is somehow equivalent to the mounds of evidence backing in game resistances (literally every elemental skill in game game can be tested and verified to be nulled) is reaching at best and wanking at worst. There is zero reason why this justifcation should be seriously considered.

 

[MattadorProne]

1/ AP arguments: Ren and Makoto are around equal in AP and Durability. Stating that Death vastly surpasses Rays of Control (which Ren tanked like a champ) or vice versa is without any real evidence. Makoto also tanking Death does not mean he could tank Sinful Shell, the whole boost is circumstantial and applied to Ren as well (see empowerment, was added specifically to justify this. Ren also has empowerment and arguing which is stronger, basically whos friends love them more, would be a waste of time). Makoto does not scale even close to death anyways since it nearly kills him. Stating that Rens base attacks are somehow vastly weaker than Sinful Shell is without any proof. You could argue some degree's of strength variation, but complete (or the effective equivilant of) nullification is a wank.

Likewise Nyx dosn't have any really substantial AP feats beyond Death and Universe Makoto literally has none beyond his previous key, other than a like 6 damage basic attack visably doing nothing (Only used great seal on erebus. Even if it was used on Nyx it bypasses durability, making it useless for AP calcs by definition). These arguments are similar, but would likely be thrown out also due to current scaling. Ren and Makoto are more or less equal in strength. Jumping Makoto to stomp level nullification is without any good evidence. This has been already stated before numerous times.

2/ Curse is a weakness, that is simply how the weaknesses are scaled. A weak jack frost is completly immune to even big-boy Satan's Diamond Dust. By the same logic, Messiah is weak to curse, even from starting persona Arsene. Going back to the starting area, you will still be downed by weaknesses from the weakest personas/shadows. Satanels curse skills are still very strong, there is no evidence to suggest otherwise. In normal cases to justify this, you would need entire tier jumps for this kind of weakness ignoring rational, or entire feats (which do not exist) and even the former has been shown (as above) to not apply up to both Ren and Makotos tiering. Ren also has no repercusions in using curse skills, so stating he simply won't is without proof.

Also just because something is a game mechanic does not make it invalid when it is supported by lore. Weaknesses and possibly knockdowns

(we could equate this as being temporarily disoriented or stunned for example; short lived paralysis. I won't force this part though. I am not overly versed with the anime for example, so I don't remember how they play out there.)

are lore based, and navagator characters will outright state so (being the majority of their role). The weakness aspect must stay, otherwise the resistances would also be invalid. There is also no reason to believe it would do no significant damage when all evidence points to the contrary. An invalid game mechanic would be like infinite time for move selection.

3/ Makoto has no win conditions at this point.

 

[AllanShadow78]

If the gun works whats stoping him from gettin close and shooting makoto? Makoto doesnt have resistance to gun based skills so they could help a bit and what about down shot? Does it work or is it nul cuz game mechanic or something?

 

[Ted_Ed]

makoto fra