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Persona 3 Protagonist vs Persona 5 Protagonist

Well, it's quite likely that Makoto is going to be upgraded to Low 2-C in the future, but I digress. Going off of their current ratings, Ren should have a pretty notable AP advantage. The feat that Makoto is scaled from is pretty baseline (at least, I think it is) while Ren is far superior to a character who performed a feat that is considered 4-A at a minimum. Considering how similar the Persona protagonists are ability-wise, due to all of them being wild-card Persona users, I think the AP difference is enough to give Ren the win here.

Again though, this is still just assuming that Makoto doesn't get upgraded to Low 2-C. I'm pretty sure Low 2-C Makoto would even beat Low 2-C Ren.
 
That's incon at best, Dark.

Also, Makoto is definitely getting upgraded to Low 2-C, since he scales to fighting Elizabeth pre-NG+ in P3P.

Putting that aside... Currently, Ren has the AP advantage, plus has elements outside of Makoto's resistances. Psychic and Nuke spells would be the equivalent of Almighty, in that case, but with the added bonus of Technical damage if he manages to inflict Burn or any mental ailments. That said, Makoto does have Armageddon, but if Ren dodges by amping his reactions with Third Eye or face-tanking it with Enduring Soul, it's over for Makoto.

Ren also has a reliable ranged option with his gun, which would force Makoto to waste his SP on magic if he keeps his distance. Ren also has stealth mastery, better senses and mobility, which would serve him well considering this takes place in Central Park. Persona spells don't have very large AOEs despite their AP, so even nuking the park wouldn't do much if Ren just retreats into the city proper.

Makoto's only definite shot is the Great Seal, but not only does that force an incon, but based on the current scaling chain, Ren would easily break out. The Great Seal only stops Erebus, who's currently 7-A at best, while True Nyx is a neutral being that wouldn't even try to escape.

That's a vote for Ren from me.
 
While I do still agree with Joker winning, sealing does still seem like a win-con for Makoto here.

1: Tiering very, very rarely affects the usefulness of sealing (with the exception of higher/beyond dimensional stuff).Normally it's more about resistances, specifically, resistances to things like sealing and BFR. The fact that Akira is far higher tier than Erebus doesn't really mean much here unless he had some resistances to sealing.

2: If sealing/BFR works for more than a week, then it's considered a win for the character who sealed them away. While yes, the process of sealing would kill Makoto, we've seen in-game that under ideal conditions he can still survive for well over a month, far more than enough time for him to be considered the winner.

Again, still pretty sure Joker wins this, but sealing is applicable here.
 
Remember that this is still in-character. Makoto isn't likely to seal unless it's his last resort, and even then, it's doubtful for him to sacrifice himself when Ren isn't exactly a world-ending threat. It's a fight where their morals are bent just enough to have no qualms killing the other, but that doesn't really translate into willingness for self-sacrifice.
 
Yes, I understand. And once again, I'm still voting for Joker since he overall still has the better skills, abilities and AP. I was simply making that in response to what you mentioned before about the comparison to Erebus as reasoning that Joker should be able to break out of the sealing, which I disagree with. Even so, I don't intend to say that Makoto would rely on it.
 
Yeah, I could see that. My reply was just a response of my own to your pointing out that Sealing would still work.
 
Since upgrades came, i switched to Endgame Makoto vs Endgame Ren without Santanel

Votes are reset
 
Hmm... I'm pretty sure Makoto has wayyy too much of an AP advantage in these conditions. Ren with Satanael might be a bit more fair, since I think Makoto only has a slight AP advantage. Unless you meant Late Game Makoto instead of Endgame with Messiah.
 
Gotcha. Okay, let's see...

I still think Makoto has at least a slight AP advantage from scaling to Nyx, though it shouldn't be anything stompy. Just notable.

That AP/Durability advantage would actually help Makoto given the ways in which Persona attacks work by "breaking through their physical shell" as it's been described before. Maybe not quite so much AP, but his Durability advantage would allow him to take quite a few more hits.

Ren does have a notable versatility advantage, along with things like enhanced senses. I doubt stealth mastery would help much if they are fighting face-to-face though. Psychokinetic and Nuclear attacks are useful given how they'd be somewhat similar to Almighty attacks, though still not quite the same.

Makoto can quite easily just use Armageddon and one-shot Ren, especially if he has Spell Master and he can use it twice. He could also theoretically use the Great Seal as a win-con, though I quite seriously doubt he'd use it as a first move.

Overall, I think I'd have to give the edge to Makoto. Makoto has both Armageddon and the Great Seal as quick and easy win-cons. Even though I doubt he'd rely on the Great Seal instantly, he'd have more then enough reason to use Armageddon if need be and even then, if he saw Ren as a serious threat he'd surely eventually be willing to use the Great Seal. Also, as mentioned prior, Makoto does have the durability advantage, so even without those two win-cons he'd likely outlast Ren. Sinful Shell should be incredibly powerful, but there isn't anything about it that would necessarily make it excellent against Makoto under these conditions. It would still be a notable threat, but nothing like what Makoto was able to handle from Nyx. Apart from versatility and mobility, Ren doesn't have enough to say he'd get the advantage here.

Voting for Makoto.
 
Let's see here...

Both are pretty much tied in most regards, however, like Grath said, Makoto has the edge in raw stats. Joker does have the edge in versatility, though I'd say it's a really slight one. He does have 2 elements Makoto has never seen before. But Makoto has both Armageddon and the Great Seal if he needs a fall-back option.

Overall they fight for a bit and are roughly equal, but when Joker starts pulling Nuke and Psy attacks, Makoto gets pushed into a corner and uses Armageddon, which would likely one-shot. Assuming he has Spell Master, it will definitely kill on first usage.

So yeah, Bad Toaster Jesus for Grath's reasons.
 
Honestly, considering the discussion and that I disagree with our scaling chain. I think it's safer to say that they are even in stats and that this stays incon overall via them being even in every category..
 
I heavily disagree with us putting Nyx above the others tbh. Based around what I've seen, the final bosses from P3-P5 should be more or less even in power and less one above the other.
 
Well, then Makoto still has Armageddon and the Great Seal. Both of which would end the fight in his favor, though one would have him die outside of the SBA time limit.

So vote isn't changed.
 
That's fair, but Joker would (likely, Player Characters and all that) use Sinful Shell later in the fight than Makoto would use Armageddon. Once Joker pulls moves that Makoto can't resist (Nuke and Psy), he'd immediately default into using his most powerful move, Armageddon. If that fails, he'd likely use the great seal.
 
Why aren't we assuming the same happens to Joker? He gets pushed back and uses Sinful Shell. Regardless, it's a time bomb. Joker uses SS, he wins. Makoto uses Arma, he wins. Great Seal seems like something Makoto would not use right away in which is actually quite bad as this depends on wether SS or Arma is used first. I mean I could argue that this Joker would use SS off the bat seeing as it was the first thing he did when he got Satanael.
 
He only used Sinful Shell right after he unlocked his Satanael because he needed to end Yaldabaoth right then. Up until that moment they were fighting a heavily pitched battle that had all of the Phantom thieves on the brink of death. There's no reason to suspect that he would see another Persona user and immediately default to using his nuke option.

Makoto uses Armageddon against troublesome foes that take too long to die or are able to harm him in a signifigant way.

In this case, Armageddon is one of Makoto's main options, whereas Sinful Shell and The Great Seal are both Final/Later options. One is definitely being used before the other, and Makoto can cast Armangeddon twice thanks to Spell Master. Meaning that if Joker can survive one Armageddon, he will not surive the next that immediately follows it.
 
Even if we assume this, you overestimate this "final/later options" thing. We have no idea how long it would take for them to use these, if we cannot assume they wouldn't use them in the beginning, we absolutely cannot assume they use them at the end, unless it's Great Seal and has a downfall. Joker only got Sinful Shell when he unlocked Satanael and thus, his character when using it is unknown, meaning that for all we know, he could use it at anytime. Same for Makoto and Arma. This means that regardless, we cannot assume when these attacks will be launched. All we know is that one dies when one uses their win moves. Simple as that. Hence, inconclusive as the timing for them to use their win cons are completely unknown.
 
Dragonmasterxyz said:
I heavily disagree with us putting Nyx above the others tbh. Based around what I've seen, the final bosses from P3-P5 should be more or less even in power and less one above the other.
Click to expand...
I never really stated that Nyx was vastly above all the others. Those were the other people responding on that thread. I'm about to address it now, actually, if you'd like to see it.
 
Satanael has resistance to resistance negation, yes, since he nullified Rays of Control.

Also, a reminder that Armageddon can be tanked with Enduring Soul, and it can only be fired off twice at the most before Makoto is effectively helpless. Even then, it has to be his first move or else he won't have enough SP to fire it off a second time.

Ren also has resistance to sealing now, too, scaling to the extent of Yaldy's reality warping. So, the Great Seal isn't even guaranteed to work, because it's only ever been used on Nyx, who has no evidence of having resistance to sealing.

That, added to my reasons from before the Low 2-C revision, as well as Ren being able to cast spells as much as he wants due to having effectively infinite SP, makes me retain my vote for Ren.
 
Would Makoto also get resistance to resistance negation by nullifying Death? Because if so... well, we run into a bit of a problem. Makoto's best moves are Great Seal and Armageddon. Ren's best move is Sinful Shell. If everything we know so far + this is correct, then they both essentially completely resist eachothers best moves.
 
Can't armageddon be tanked by being durable enough as well?

Makoto can't one shot Nyx's avatar or Elizabeth with Armageddon. He has to weaken them first then one shot them. Seems like his 2 win conditions can be countered. Though same can be said for Ren's Sinfull shell. Because Makoto's infinity move which can block moves strong enough to one shot Makoto... well at least pre universe arcana Makoto.

Edit: Makoto should also have resistance to resistance negation via infinity. Which can negate almighty moves.
 
@DarkGrath

He would.

@Jesterofgames

Infinity takes a massive chunk of SP though. Makoto's at a massive disadvantage with the way SP works in his game being percentage-based instead of set values like in P5. His only method of restoring it is through Invigorate, while Ren has zero qualms in spamming Sinful Shell.
 
Hmm... well, if Makoto resists Ren's Sinful Shell, to probably a greater extent (given how he completely nullified Death) then Sinful Shell doesn't really seem like a viable win-con for Ren.

Also, I'm pretty sure Fusion Spells taking a percentage of SP rather than a set amount is mostly GC. I'm fully willing to believe that Fusion Spells are far more exhausting to use than regular spells, but I'm pretty sure that the set percentages were simply done so that they would be viable at every level yet still not overpowered at later levels.

Really, I still think this is a pretty damn close match. But considering that Makoto managed to survive a Death attack from True Nyx (that managed to crit him, mind you) and still not only survived, but got up just a few seconds later puts Makoto's AP and Durability notably above Ren's.

With both Sinful Shell removed as a win-con, and with how Persona attacks need to break the enemies physical "shell" to hurt them, Makoto's Durability simply outmatches Ren's AP by a bit too much to ignore as a major factor here. Ren just hasn't shown any AP feats without Sinful Shell that could finish him off.

Ren still has a few advantages here and there, such as greater versatility. And I'm not denying that Ren surely could beat Makoto. But I just don't see any reason it would be more likely.

I'm retaining my vote for Makoto.

P.S: Should I, or just anyone willing to do so, add Resistance to Resistance Negation to Makoto's profile?

by the way is anyone going to acknowledge that the OP called Satanael, Santaneal? I feel like this + the final battle of Persona 5 happening just before Christmas is not a coincidence
 
Putting aside the fact that Armageddon and Death yield the same damage values in terms of gameplay (9999 damage), putting them in roughly the same tier of attack in the same way Niflheim and Diamond Dust are both Tier 4 ice spells, we already consider Makoto surviving Death as a feat of Empowerment, not Durability. Nyx and Yaldy are, as far as the scaling is concerned, roughly equal.

Also, while Ren has no feats of AP on the same level as Sinful Shell, Makoto has no feats of AP scaling to Nyx at all. So if anything, it's Makoto that's lacking in AP.

Besides that, Grath, the physical shell only needs to be 'broken' to affect the soul with regular attacks. This really only applies to opponents that can continue fighting indefinitely as a disembodied soul. Both Ren and Makoto will die if their physical bodies are destroyed. We also consider SP costs as non-game-mechanics, or else we'd have no way of measuring how much Persona-users can cast before tiring.

And yes, add Resistance to Resistance Negation to Makoto's profile.
 
I don't really see why Makoto surviving Nyx's attack through Empowerment of Durability is an argument against it here. Empowerment is essentially just increasing stats through means that wouldn't normally result in an increased power level. In this case it is Empowerment of Durability through Willpower. While I'm willing to accept that this means his Durability wouldn't exactly be on the same level as it was in the Nyx fight (making it a bad example, my apologies about that) it's pretty clear in the fight that simply gaining the Universe Arcana gave him the Willpower he needed. Accepting that his Durability wouldn't be quite as high as it was in the Nyx fight is fine and reasonable, but it should still be relatively comparable.

And considering that even a miniscule fragment of Nyx was enough to compare to the Collective Unconscious (no, don't worry, I haven't forgotten. I know that Nyx didn't create the Collective Unconscious, but it's still established in-lore that the tiny bits of Nyx's psyche was still powerful enough to compare to the Collective Unconscious), I'm a bit doubtful about Nyx and Yaldy being comparable.

When you again consider that Ren has shown nothing outside of Sinful Shell and resistances that compared him to Yaldabaoth, I still don't see how Ren would have the AP advantage here.

Oh, and I've added the resistance to Makoto's profile.
 
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