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Akira Kurusu FRA
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Persona 3 Protagonist vs Persona 5 Protagonist
- Thread starter Overlord775
- Start date
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Alright! I'm finally back. I told ya'll I'd be back with my reasoning, and here I am! I dread writing long posts on Versus Threads, so I'll try to get this out of the way ASAP and elaborate further if necessary. So, here we go.
AP and Durability: While I was admittedly incorrect before about Makoto having the superior AP (which I apologise for, it was quite presumptous of me) in this blog postin the comments, I mentioned the major problems I had with the scaling chain and gave the scaling chain revisions based on what I had noticed. With that in mind, Makoto and Ren would actually have completely equal AP and Durability (at least, relatively comparable AP and Durability). As such, the argument in favour of Ren due to the AP advantage is not applicable, unless I've made any major problems with the scaling chain I wrote up.
Willingness to use Sealing: Ren has since had his resistance to Sealing removed, and so Makoto's Great Seal is now an applicable move to instantly take out Ren. However, an argument that has been presented was that Makoto would be unwilling to use Sealing since it results in his death (and for clarification, no, it doesn't kill him for well over a month, so it would fall under SBA win-cons). This is an argument I find myself strongly disagreeing with. When Makoto first came up against Nyx, the moment he was actually physically capable of making a move he instantly chose to use Sealing. And while it could be argued that Sealing was his only choice, remember that it's already been agreed that both Satanael and Messiah have all of their moves. If we limited Messiah to only the Great Seal, Satanael would be limited to Sinful Shell (which not only has already been agreed to not be applicable, but it would be far more of a disadvantage for Ren if it was the case, as I'll explain soon). Using the Great Seal may result in Makoto's death, but against an opponent with great power he's very clearly shown his willingness to use it if he must.
Ren's applicable AP: This is another problem I have to address. Makoto has resistance to resistance negation, because he can nullify Almighty attacks. This would then allow him to nullify Satanael's Sinful Shell. There has been one major argument against this. Ren's AP advantage over Nyx means it could bypass this. This is not only not currently correct, but it completely ignores the way that AP has worked alongside resistances in Persona before. A level 99 Lucifer using an ice attack against a level 10 Jack Frost would be nullified, as just one example. AP has never translated to resistances before, and there's no reason it should now.
So why does this matter? Because Sinful Shell is the only move that grants Ren serious AP. I'm willing to believe that Satanael is still far stronger than Late-Game Ren with his other attacks, but to say that all of his attacks would be just as strong is also stating that he could one-shot Yaldabaoth with a cosmic flare. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that his other attacks would be as strong as Sinful Shell, and with that in mind, Ren would not applicably be able to use the same amount of AP as Makoto in this fight, since Sinful Shell is nullified.
Makoto's Empowerment: One last point that should be made. While both of them have a great deal of empowerment, Makoto's specific feat of empowerment far outweighs what Ren has done. For those of you who don't know, Makoto's Empowerment is based on having survived an attack that would normally be a one-shot from Nyx, without having to nullify it, while on the brink of death. Unless there are any problems with my aforementioned scaling chain, both Makoto and Ren have equal AP and therefore Nyx would be capable of one-shorting both of them. However, even with only 1 point of health left and clearly on his last straw, through Empowerment Makoto managed to tank a hit that would normally be a one-shot despite already being on death's door, proceeding to get up a few seconds later.
With this in mind, and with Ren's Sinful Shell out of the equation, Ren has no abilities or powers that would reasonably be capable of finishing off Makoto. If Makoto can tank a hit from a being with a one-shot difference in AP compared to Ren While already on the brink of death, there's little to suggest that Ren could achieve such a feat himself.
So, here are the advantages for both of them:
Makoto Yuki:
- Can Seal for instant win-con, which he'd be willing to do
- Can nullify Ren's best attack
- Has the potential to use attacks with greater AP than Ren
- Through Empowerment, has shown haxxed Durability leagues beyond Ren's best AP feats
Ren Amamiya:
- Would remove Makoto's ability to seal if he managed to notably hurt him
- Can use abilities without SP (though there is no confirmation if this works outside of Sinful Shell)
- Can use Dormina for an incap win (though this would require switching out of Satanael, reducing his AP and Durability)
- Can use Makajam to remove Makoto's Persona abilities (though again, this is not one of Satanael's abilities)
My vote is still for Makoto.
AP and Durability: While I was admittedly incorrect before about Makoto having the superior AP (which I apologise for, it was quite presumptous of me) in this blog postin the comments, I mentioned the major problems I had with the scaling chain and gave the scaling chain revisions based on what I had noticed. With that in mind, Makoto and Ren would actually have completely equal AP and Durability (at least, relatively comparable AP and Durability). As such, the argument in favour of Ren due to the AP advantage is not applicable, unless I've made any major problems with the scaling chain I wrote up.
Willingness to use Sealing: Ren has since had his resistance to Sealing removed, and so Makoto's Great Seal is now an applicable move to instantly take out Ren. However, an argument that has been presented was that Makoto would be unwilling to use Sealing since it results in his death (and for clarification, no, it doesn't kill him for well over a month, so it would fall under SBA win-cons). This is an argument I find myself strongly disagreeing with. When Makoto first came up against Nyx, the moment he was actually physically capable of making a move he instantly chose to use Sealing. And while it could be argued that Sealing was his only choice, remember that it's already been agreed that both Satanael and Messiah have all of their moves. If we limited Messiah to only the Great Seal, Satanael would be limited to Sinful Shell (which not only has already been agreed to not be applicable, but it would be far more of a disadvantage for Ren if it was the case, as I'll explain soon). Using the Great Seal may result in Makoto's death, but against an opponent with great power he's very clearly shown his willingness to use it if he must.
Ren's applicable AP: This is another problem I have to address. Makoto has resistance to resistance negation, because he can nullify Almighty attacks. This would then allow him to nullify Satanael's Sinful Shell. There has been one major argument against this. Ren's AP advantage over Nyx means it could bypass this. This is not only not currently correct, but it completely ignores the way that AP has worked alongside resistances in Persona before. A level 99 Lucifer using an ice attack against a level 10 Jack Frost would be nullified, as just one example. AP has never translated to resistances before, and there's no reason it should now.
So why does this matter? Because Sinful Shell is the only move that grants Ren serious AP. I'm willing to believe that Satanael is still far stronger than Late-Game Ren with his other attacks, but to say that all of his attacks would be just as strong is also stating that he could one-shot Yaldabaoth with a cosmic flare. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that his other attacks would be as strong as Sinful Shell, and with that in mind, Ren would not applicably be able to use the same amount of AP as Makoto in this fight, since Sinful Shell is nullified.
Makoto's Empowerment: One last point that should be made. While both of them have a great deal of empowerment, Makoto's specific feat of empowerment far outweighs what Ren has done. For those of you who don't know, Makoto's Empowerment is based on having survived an attack that would normally be a one-shot from Nyx, without having to nullify it, while on the brink of death. Unless there are any problems with my aforementioned scaling chain, both Makoto and Ren have equal AP and therefore Nyx would be capable of one-shorting both of them. However, even with only 1 point of health left and clearly on his last straw, through Empowerment Makoto managed to tank a hit that would normally be a one-shot despite already being on death's door, proceeding to get up a few seconds later.
With this in mind, and with Ren's Sinful Shell out of the equation, Ren has no abilities or powers that would reasonably be capable of finishing off Makoto. If Makoto can tank a hit from a being with a one-shot difference in AP compared to Ren While already on the brink of death, there's little to suggest that Ren could achieve such a feat himself.
So, here are the advantages for both of them:
Makoto Yuki:
- Can Seal for instant win-con, which he'd be willing to do
- Can nullify Ren's best attack
- Has the potential to use attacks with greater AP than Ren
- Through Empowerment, has shown haxxed Durability leagues beyond Ren's best AP feats
Ren Amamiya:
- Would remove Makoto's ability to seal if he managed to notably hurt him
- Can use abilities without SP (though there is no confirmation if this works outside of Sinful Shell)
- Can use Dormina for an incap win (though this would require switching out of Satanael, reducing his AP and Durability)
- Can use Makajam to remove Makoto's Persona abilities (though again, this is not one of Satanael's abilities)
My vote is still for Makoto.
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Regarding that in character point. That does not mean he will use it in an instant. We blatantly argued whether Joker would start with Sinful Shell due to the circumstances in which they started with it not being the same as well as I want to know how this sealing works. Is it a projetile? If so, it can be dodged. But back to the in character, he would not use it off the bat, in fact nothing you posted supports this and screams of theory crafting as you are going by assumption that this and that will happen.
Also this whole surviving an attack from Nyx with one HP screams of being PIS or an Outlier overall as it is completely inconsistent. Even if we accept it nothing suggest Ren cannot use an ability outside of Sinful Shell. Unlike Makoto, Ren never showed to be drained after he used it. And so Makoto survives Sinful Shell, he uses another move. Ii also feel that you are being blatantly disingenuous in terms of the AP. You assume Sinful Shell is his only skill being that powerful when we have no confirmation of this. Only thing we know is that Sinful Shell is the only move Ren used against Yaldabaoth. You assume nothing will kill Makoto afterwards which I find dubious at best and theory crafting at worst as nothing you posted convinces me the earlier arguments are not legitimate.
I will go in more detail if I have to later, but I am not in the mood to respond to and in text walls today. However, I personally found these arguments to be disingenuous to Ren's side and more on the wank side for Makoto, not that this is what you attempted to do Either way, my vote sticks firmly to Ren.
Also this whole surviving an attack from Nyx with one HP screams of being PIS or an Outlier overall as it is completely inconsistent. Even if we accept it nothing suggest Ren cannot use an ability outside of Sinful Shell. Unlike Makoto, Ren never showed to be drained after he used it. And so Makoto survives Sinful Shell, he uses another move. Ii also feel that you are being blatantly disingenuous in terms of the AP. You assume Sinful Shell is his only skill being that powerful when we have no confirmation of this. Only thing we know is that Sinful Shell is the only move Ren used against Yaldabaoth. You assume nothing will kill Makoto afterwards which I find dubious at best and theory crafting at worst as nothing you posted convinces me the earlier arguments are not legitimate.
I will go in more detail if I have to later, but I am not in the mood to respond to and in text walls today. However, I personally found these arguments to be disingenuous to Ren's side and more on the wank side for Makoto, not that this is what you attempted to do Either way, my vote sticks firmly to Ren.
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Let me just do a TL;DR for each of the sections, since I know I'd start a riot if I expected people to read through all of that.
AP and Durability: While the scaling chain suggested by Solacis would give Ren a notable AP advantage, there are multiple cases of major inaccuracies that bump up the statistics for Persona 5 characters (such as stating that the individual Phantom Thieves Post-Qliphoth are all stronger than Caroline and Justine) And also cases of the Persona 3 statistics being unrealistically downplayed (such as stating that Erebus is comparable to the Nyx Avatar). With the most notable inaccuracies removed, Makoto and Ren have mostly equal AP.
Willingness to use Sealing: Despite what has been stated earlier in this thread, Makoto has demonstrated with the Universe Arcana that he is fully willing to use Sealing in-character if his opponent is a notable threat. As such, Sealing is still a win-con that Makoto could easily use.
Ren's Applicable AP: Through Resistance to Resistance Negation, Makoto can nullify Almighty attacks. Considering how resistances to attacks have worked throughout the series thus far, with AP having no effect whatsoever on characters nullifying attacks, even if Ren had the AP advantage he could not use Sinful Shell. And without the AP advantage, it's a completely moot point. The only attacks Ren can use in that circumstance are demonstratively shown to be nowhere near as powerful, meaning that Ren cannot use his AP to its full extent.
Makoto's Empowerment: Under the aforementioned scaling chain, Nyx has an AP advantage over both Ren and Makoto that would cause a one-shot. While Makoto does not have comparable AP to Nyx, through Empowerment Makoto was able to survive Nyx's strongest attack while already at Death's Door, essentially using hax to tank an attack while already nearly dead that is far beyond anything Ren has ever done. As such, Ren likely doesn't have the abilities or advantages that would allow him to finish Makoto off.
AP and Durability: While the scaling chain suggested by Solacis would give Ren a notable AP advantage, there are multiple cases of major inaccuracies that bump up the statistics for Persona 5 characters (such as stating that the individual Phantom Thieves Post-Qliphoth are all stronger than Caroline and Justine) And also cases of the Persona 3 statistics being unrealistically downplayed (such as stating that Erebus is comparable to the Nyx Avatar). With the most notable inaccuracies removed, Makoto and Ren have mostly equal AP.
Willingness to use Sealing: Despite what has been stated earlier in this thread, Makoto has demonstrated with the Universe Arcana that he is fully willing to use Sealing in-character if his opponent is a notable threat. As such, Sealing is still a win-con that Makoto could easily use.
Ren's Applicable AP: Through Resistance to Resistance Negation, Makoto can nullify Almighty attacks. Considering how resistances to attacks have worked throughout the series thus far, with AP having no effect whatsoever on characters nullifying attacks, even if Ren had the AP advantage he could not use Sinful Shell. And without the AP advantage, it's a completely moot point. The only attacks Ren can use in that circumstance are demonstratively shown to be nowhere near as powerful, meaning that Ren cannot use his AP to its full extent.
Makoto's Empowerment: Under the aforementioned scaling chain, Nyx has an AP advantage over both Ren and Makoto that would cause a one-shot. While Makoto does not have comparable AP to Nyx, through Empowerment Makoto was able to survive Nyx's strongest attack while already at Death's Door, essentially using hax to tank an attack while already nearly dead that is far beyond anything Ren has ever done. As such, Ren likely doesn't have the abilities or advantages that would allow him to finish Makoto off.
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Just to address Dragonmaster's point.
While yes, it is entirely possible for Ren to prevent the Sealing from happening, there are a multitude of ways that Makoto can counteract this. If Ren tries an ailment and it fails, Makoto can use Sealing. If Ren misses an attack, Makoto can use Sealing. If Makoto nullifies one of his attacks (like Sinful Shell, which is often regarded as Ren's starting move), Makoto can use Sealing.
While admittedly, looking back on that comment, I have slightly exaggerated the situation, it does need to be clear that Makoto has been clearly shown to not mess around against opponents with a great deal of power. And it was shown in his battle with Nyx that he's willing to use it as a first move. To say that Ren can potentially counteract it is correct, to say that Makoto outright wouldn't use it would just be ignoring the evidence at hand.
Also, it works as something akin to an AOE attack judging by the animation. It's not clear how large the AOE is, but it was large enough to seal Nyx, who is physically the size of the Moon, and created a bright enough light to be seen from the surface of Earth. If they are starting at a reasonable range, Ren simply couldn't dodge it, especially given that speed is equalised.
Also, Makoto's entire Empowerment is based on that very scene with Nyx. He was able to survive that attack due to Empowerment. That's a detail that has long been agreed upon, and arguing against it would best be handled on a CRT, not here.
I don't mean to imply that nothing will kill him no matter what. That'd be pure wank on my part. Nor am I saying that it would be physically impossible for Ren to kill him. What I'm saying is that it would be far, far more difficult than if Makoto only had Durability to rely on.
Either way, I won't bother you if you're not in the mood to reply at the moment. I just wanted to address those arguments with my rebuttals.
And, for the record, no. I'm not trying to wank Makoto here, even if it seems like it. If anything, I far prefer Ren as a character and would be more likely to wank him if it came down to it (not that I would, but... you know what I mean). I just always play Devil's Advocate in my head when deciding my opinions on these debates, since I don't like basing my opinions purely on the majority. While usually the majority are actually 100% valid, this was just a case where I had to disagree after looking through all the evidence in my POV.
While yes, it is entirely possible for Ren to prevent the Sealing from happening, there are a multitude of ways that Makoto can counteract this. If Ren tries an ailment and it fails, Makoto can use Sealing. If Ren misses an attack, Makoto can use Sealing. If Makoto nullifies one of his attacks (like Sinful Shell, which is often regarded as Ren's starting move), Makoto can use Sealing.
While admittedly, looking back on that comment, I have slightly exaggerated the situation, it does need to be clear that Makoto has been clearly shown to not mess around against opponents with a great deal of power. And it was shown in his battle with Nyx that he's willing to use it as a first move. To say that Ren can potentially counteract it is correct, to say that Makoto outright wouldn't use it would just be ignoring the evidence at hand.
Also, it works as something akin to an AOE attack judging by the animation. It's not clear how large the AOE is, but it was large enough to seal Nyx, who is physically the size of the Moon, and created a bright enough light to be seen from the surface of Earth. If they are starting at a reasonable range, Ren simply couldn't dodge it, especially given that speed is equalised.
Also, Makoto's entire Empowerment is based on that very scene with Nyx. He was able to survive that attack due to Empowerment. That's a detail that has long been agreed upon, and arguing against it would best be handled on a CRT, not here.
I don't mean to imply that nothing will kill him no matter what. That'd be pure wank on my part. Nor am I saying that it would be physically impossible for Ren to kill him. What I'm saying is that it would be far, far more difficult than if Makoto only had Durability to rely on.
Either way, I won't bother you if you're not in the mood to reply at the moment. I just wanted to address those arguments with my rebuttals.
And, for the record, no. I'm not trying to wank Makoto here, even if it seems like it. If anything, I far prefer Ren as a character and would be more likely to wank him if it came down to it (not that I would, but... you know what I mean). I just always play Devil's Advocate in my head when deciding my opinions on these debates, since I don't like basing my opinions purely on the majority. While usually the majority are actually 100% valid, this was just a case where I had to disagree after looking through all the evidence in my POV.
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I'll address your post....probably....later...assuming I stop playing FE: Three Houses for one second.
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Yeah, it came out last Friday.
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EXFTudXg7pgDragonmasterxyz said:
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Grath nukes the thread with a Makoto argument.
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@DarkGrath
Gonna have to politely disagree with you here:
The idea that the great seal is a unfalable win condition is baseless. Let lay out the facts:
- It was used to seal erebus not true nyx, whom is far weaker than true nyx, joker, and even the nyx avatar (you yourself have argued nyx avatar >> erebus).
-Makoto using the seal at the start makes no sense. In game he had the pep talk with Igor and knew he had to die. He there is no reason for him to suicide tactic from the start if in character. He cannot gauge power levels of opponents like Joker can.
-Joker's AP scaling is far higher than Makoto's. Your argument hinges on Nyx being far far stronger than Yald and the other collective subcouncious administrators which simply isn't true. Nyx has no feats to suggest it is (at least arsurdly) stronger and is a massive wanking of Nyx's strength and therefore Makotos. We have already noted that creating the CU is a feat of humanity, not Nyx. Joker is far far stronger than an admin, while Makoto is far far weaker. While it would not nessasraly affect the use of the seal, it would make it far more difficult to activate. Empowerment is not a good argument since Joker posseses it as well and has shrugged off similar strength moves (rays of control). It is also only effective in certian situations and is uncontrollable (noted on the page). In these keys, both are already empowered. There is nothing beyond this. It is not a magical tank hit ability usable in any application.
-No one has stated what the seal exactly does. Like if no one here can explain it, then there is no use in such a shaky argument. Ren resists BFR, Pocket reality, spacial manipulation and power null so those applications are moot. These scale to Yald who is stronger than Minato (and more or less equal to Nyx). Remember the seal scales to Erberus. It cannot kill since Erebus lives. Joker also has resistance to resistance negation, so the seal cannot bypass these. What does it do?
-The seal always landing is a game mechanic. Sinful shell can also not miss in game. If it misses Makoto dies. Judging on animation isn't very valid since there are plenty of screen nukes in game that characters will casually dodge. Even moves stated to never miss (Pokemon Aerial Ace for example) are not held to that standard in vs. wiki battles.
Other Note:
Sinful shell is not resistance negation. It is listed as conceptual manipulation. It will hurt Makoto. There is no reason to sell off Sealing as this cure-all and completly disregard Sinful Shell. At best it is a who fires first situation, which is more likely for Joker since he can Sinful Shell with no concequnce and can gauge power levels (Third Eye).
Personally I would say its still Jokers win.
Gonna have to politely disagree with you here:
The idea that the great seal is a unfalable win condition is baseless. Let lay out the facts:
- It was used to seal erebus not true nyx, whom is far weaker than true nyx, joker, and even the nyx avatar (you yourself have argued nyx avatar >> erebus).
-Makoto using the seal at the start makes no sense. In game he had the pep talk with Igor and knew he had to die. He there is no reason for him to suicide tactic from the start if in character. He cannot gauge power levels of opponents like Joker can.
-Joker's AP scaling is far higher than Makoto's. Your argument hinges on Nyx being far far stronger than Yald and the other collective subcouncious administrators which simply isn't true. Nyx has no feats to suggest it is (at least arsurdly) stronger and is a massive wanking of Nyx's strength and therefore Makotos. We have already noted that creating the CU is a feat of humanity, not Nyx. Joker is far far stronger than an admin, while Makoto is far far weaker. While it would not nessasraly affect the use of the seal, it would make it far more difficult to activate. Empowerment is not a good argument since Joker posseses it as well and has shrugged off similar strength moves (rays of control). It is also only effective in certian situations and is uncontrollable (noted on the page). In these keys, both are already empowered. There is nothing beyond this. It is not a magical tank hit ability usable in any application.
-No one has stated what the seal exactly does. Like if no one here can explain it, then there is no use in such a shaky argument. Ren resists BFR, Pocket reality, spacial manipulation and power null so those applications are moot. These scale to Yald who is stronger than Minato (and more or less equal to Nyx). Remember the seal scales to Erberus. It cannot kill since Erebus lives. Joker also has resistance to resistance negation, so the seal cannot bypass these. What does it do?
-The seal always landing is a game mechanic. Sinful shell can also not miss in game. If it misses Makoto dies. Judging on animation isn't very valid since there are plenty of screen nukes in game that characters will casually dodge. Even moves stated to never miss (Pokemon Aerial Ace for example) are not held to that standard in vs. wiki battles.
Other Note:
Sinful shell is not resistance negation. It is listed as conceptual manipulation. It will hurt Makoto. There is no reason to sell off Sealing as this cure-all and completly disregard Sinful Shell. At best it is a who fires first situation, which is more likely for Joker since he can Sinful Shell with no concequnce and can gauge power levels (Third Eye).
Personally I would say its still Jokers win.
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Joker FRA
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Let me address those arguments.
- First, AP has nothing to do with resistances to Sealing. Yes, while it is true that Ren definitely has a far higher AP than Erebus, this does not at all translate to Ren being unsealable. That is baseless.
- Admittedly, I think you have a point on the second comment. I have overexaggerated the extent to which Makoto would be willing to use Sealing, my point is just that it is still a viable win-con.
- This point just misunderstands my argument. This has nothing to do with the Collective Unconscious or anything of the sort. Looking at the provided scaling chain, there were multiple baseless points that boosted Ren's statistics far higher than it would be, and also many baseless points that dropped Makoto's statistics far lower than they would be. I address all of these problems in the link I provided, and update the scaling chain to account for them. With the major problems accounted for, Makoto and Ren are equal on the scaling chain. Again, this has nothing to do with assumptions about the Collective Unconscious or anything of the sort; this is explicitly the scaling chain.
- I'm not sure I entirely understand what your argument is on this point. I won't argue for or against it, I just want some clarification since I don't quite get what you're saying. Joker has no resistance to Sealing, at least, not anymore. It works by Sealing his opponent. So a Seal would work on him. Right? Could you elaborate?
- It is only conceptual manipulation due to having physically formed the Seven Deadly Sins into its bullet. It does not manipulate the concepts of its opponents in any way. It works exactly the same as every other Almighty attack, with the exception of the special conditions that led to its creation and the fact that it nullifies Type 8 Immortality, both of which are useless here. This is a moot point, and misunderstands where the conceptual manipulation for Sinful Shell comes from due to the fact that the concept Manip is not combat applicable.
- First, AP has nothing to do with resistances to Sealing. Yes, while it is true that Ren definitely has a far higher AP than Erebus, this does not at all translate to Ren being unsealable. That is baseless.
- Admittedly, I think you have a point on the second comment. I have overexaggerated the extent to which Makoto would be willing to use Sealing, my point is just that it is still a viable win-con.
- This point just misunderstands my argument. This has nothing to do with the Collective Unconscious or anything of the sort. Looking at the provided scaling chain, there were multiple baseless points that boosted Ren's statistics far higher than it would be, and also many baseless points that dropped Makoto's statistics far lower than they would be. I address all of these problems in the link I provided, and update the scaling chain to account for them. With the major problems accounted for, Makoto and Ren are equal on the scaling chain. Again, this has nothing to do with assumptions about the Collective Unconscious or anything of the sort; this is explicitly the scaling chain.
- I'm not sure I entirely understand what your argument is on this point. I won't argue for or against it, I just want some clarification since I don't quite get what you're saying. Joker has no resistance to Sealing, at least, not anymore. It works by Sealing his opponent. So a Seal would work on him. Right? Could you elaborate?
- It is only conceptual manipulation due to having physically formed the Seven Deadly Sins into its bullet. It does not manipulate the concepts of its opponents in any way. It works exactly the same as every other Almighty attack, with the exception of the special conditions that led to its creation and the fact that it nullifies Type 8 Immortality, both of which are useless here. This is a moot point, and misunderstands where the conceptual manipulation for Sinful Shell comes from due to the fact that the concept Manip is not combat applicable.
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Just saying, Sealing is a power based around AP. Unless a seal has shown to seal someone comparable to Ren, we cannot assume it'll work on someone higher than Erebus.
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Didn't it seal Nyx?
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When has it been based around AP? In all the matches I've been involved with where there are characters who use Sealing (such as Dante), Sealing has always been considered a viable win-con, even against enemies with higher AP. Never once have I seen Sealing be assumed to be AP based. Could you elaborate on that?
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It sealed ErebusSchnee One said:
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Yeah, I also rememebering in Dante vs Sol that this AP gap was brought up and we had to debate whether Dante was on the level of Sol's AP. For as long as I know this has always been the case. Hence why a guy who can seal a 3-C shouldn't be automatically assumed to seal a 3-A and so on and so forth as they've never sealed something this powerful. If Dante has verdicts based on Sealing someone far above his sealing paygrade then those fights should be re-evaluated.DarkGrath said:
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I remember Grays sealing being removed from his AP section because it was considered Hax and he was going to seal a High 6C.
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Sealing is an ability, but an ability can be AP based. And if he had feats of sealing a High 6-C, then of course his Sealing is that powerful/AP value. Sealing shouldn't be in an AP section
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Yeah, it was debated whether Dante was on Sol's level of AP, but that was never the reason why it was agreed it wouldn't work. It was agreed that Dante's Sealing wouldn't work because it works as a projectile and Sol has many easy ways of counteracting projectiles. It had nothing to do with the fact that Sol had higher AP.
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But the fact that Sol would've had such an AP gap would've made the Sealing null and Void regardless. I can make a thread on this later.
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Also, even if the Sealing is considered AP based, it still needs to be noted that it worked against Nyx. It may have directly affected Erebus, but Nyx was being controlled by Erebus and gained a great deal of power from it. It Sealed Erebus by splitting Erebus apart from Nyx, so if AP is a factor it should still be scaled to Nyx.
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I'll make it now since it concerns the match.Dragonmasterxyz said:
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I'll let you guys who know P3 sort that AP out. From what I see, you guys still need to get this AP scaling issue sorted out as we seem to have multiple diverging opinions. Not to menion we have to confirm whether Nyx is on the level of the PT. Also, did it work on Nyx or Erebus, I am getting two stories here. If it was Erebus, then nothing you posted puts it on Nyx's level. It controlling and powering Nyx up doesn't mean it scales.DarkGrath said:
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It worked on Nyx, Solaris mentioned it wasn't trying to escape but if it's AP based that's irrelevant
Did the thing https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3330579?useskin=oasis&cb=7126
Did the thing https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3330579?useskin=oasis&cb=7126
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Erebus was not controlling Nyx. Nyx was genuinly convinced by Erebus that humanity desired death. Thats it. It did not affect Nyx directly. Also we have not come to a decision on your scaling chain so at the moment we are using what Solacis has provided. We can assume Joker and Makoto are equal in AP, but your chain overinflates feats of Nyx that would be useful here.DarkGrath said:
My point on the application of sealing is that in lore it prevented Erebus from reaching Nyx in the sea of souls. Thats it. How does that apply to Joker? He isn't in the sea of souls nor trying to contact nyx. I reccomend reading the page on sealing. Sealing is a method of delivery, like how Yalds abilities are done through reality warping. Through reality warping Yald can BFR, Create, Null etc.
Sealing is described as two types: 1/ Sealing someone into a container or living being or 2/ Sealing away a concept or atribute. No one has specified which one is applicable, and I feel as if most only people assume Makoto has sealing because its in the name "Great Seal" and havn't bothered to look up the mechinics of it. It is definatly not 1, since there is no vessel and even if it was Ren resists BFR.
Therefore it is type 2. How would this affect Ren? Only way I can see is sealing away his connection to the sea of souls. However this is power nulling by definition and therefore resisted by Ren. Sealing can bypass conventional durability, but it cannot bypass resistances, especially since Ren has resistance to resistance negation. Saying sealing would bypass his resistance to power nulling in this case (which in this verse is blocking the use of a persona) is a massive no-limits fallacy. That would be the same as saying any character without sealing resistance would lose, which is a massive wank. It is a hax ability, but all hax need to be scrutinized on a case to case basis. Otherwise there is no converstaion to be had most of the time (and would be a stomp with the battle discarded).
Also Joker has concept manipulation because Yald is an abstract exsistance (Type 2). To put him down permanantly (mementos collapsed; treasure destroyed), Joker needs concept manipulation by definition (see Abstract Existance). And no it wasn't a feat of the people. Stating that people suddenly lost all desire for sloth is a massive overreach. People believed in the Phantom Theives, they didn't become perfect handworking humans. Sae even states the world is still full of garbage people.
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"Erebus was not controlling Nyx"
Yes, they were. Nyx was completely dormant and asleep, and it's been very well established that they were not malicious in the slightest. Erebus used Nyx as a catalyst for power, with Nyx then going dormant again once Erebus was removed. This is not grasping at straws or making assumptions; this is just a blatant part of the lore.
"We are using what Solacis has provided"
I trust Solacis greatly, especially with Persona related matters. But his scaling chain is incorrect, no matter how you look at it. It considers the individual Phantom Thieves (individual, as in, all by themselves) to be stronger than Caroline and Justine. It also considers Erebus and the Nyx Avatar to be equal, which is directly contradicted by what we see in their battles.
Also, there has been zero official consensus on the scaling chain Solacis has provided. Nobody has approved of it, even he stated that it was purely for the sake of discussing it, and it has several notable problems that severely over and underexaggerate the statistics for various characters (those were only two examples of the many I've provided). There is no reason to use what he has provided, and saying that it would be best to use it would be nothing but an appeal to authority.
"The seal prevented Erebus from reaching Nyx in the Sea of Souls"
We see in the end-game of The Answer that it is a physical seal created from Makoto's soul, that prevents Erebus from moving outside of a designated area, and therefore not able to reach Nyx. If you squint really hard at it, you could argue that it is BFR and that therefore Ren would resist it. But this is hardly substantied, and in practice it works just like a container.
"Joker has concept manipulation due to Yaldy being an abstract existence"
What? That's not the reason at all. That's not even remotely the reason. All shadows are abstract existences, and Persona users can affect them through NPI and Soul Manipulation. Ren's Concept Manip is literally listed on his page as being due to having created a bullet made of the Seven Deadly Sins, so turning a concept into physical form.
Seriously, this is almost always brought up on Versus Threads involving Joker. Someone says that he can one-shot with Concept Manip, and it has always been rejected since it is not combat applicable.
Makoto get's his Resistance to Resistance Negation from being able to nullify Almighty Attacks. Sinful Shell is an Almighty Attack. We've seen in the series so far that attack resistances are completely independant from AP, at least to the extent that there is no way you could reason that Ren would be able to get through it. Satanael casting Cosmic Flare on a level 10 being immune to nuclear attacks would get his attack nullified, so would literally anyone.
"And no, it wasn't a feat of the people"
I literally never said, claimed, or even implied this.
Yes, they were. Nyx was completely dormant and asleep, and it's been very well established that they were not malicious in the slightest. Erebus used Nyx as a catalyst for power, with Nyx then going dormant again once Erebus was removed. This is not grasping at straws or making assumptions; this is just a blatant part of the lore.
"We are using what Solacis has provided"
I trust Solacis greatly, especially with Persona related matters. But his scaling chain is incorrect, no matter how you look at it. It considers the individual Phantom Thieves (individual, as in, all by themselves) to be stronger than Caroline and Justine. It also considers Erebus and the Nyx Avatar to be equal, which is directly contradicted by what we see in their battles.
Also, there has been zero official consensus on the scaling chain Solacis has provided. Nobody has approved of it, even he stated that it was purely for the sake of discussing it, and it has several notable problems that severely over and underexaggerate the statistics for various characters (those were only two examples of the many I've provided). There is no reason to use what he has provided, and saying that it would be best to use it would be nothing but an appeal to authority.
"The seal prevented Erebus from reaching Nyx in the Sea of Souls"
We see in the end-game of The Answer that it is a physical seal created from Makoto's soul, that prevents Erebus from moving outside of a designated area, and therefore not able to reach Nyx. If you squint really hard at it, you could argue that it is BFR and that therefore Ren would resist it. But this is hardly substantied, and in practice it works just like a container.
"Joker has concept manipulation due to Yaldy being an abstract existence"
What? That's not the reason at all. That's not even remotely the reason. All shadows are abstract existences, and Persona users can affect them through NPI and Soul Manipulation. Ren's Concept Manip is literally listed on his page as being due to having created a bullet made of the Seven Deadly Sins, so turning a concept into physical form.
Seriously, this is almost always brought up on Versus Threads involving Joker. Someone says that he can one-shot with Concept Manip, and it has always been rejected since it is not combat applicable.
Makoto get's his Resistance to Resistance Negation from being able to nullify Almighty Attacks. Sinful Shell is an Almighty Attack. We've seen in the series so far that attack resistances are completely independant from AP, at least to the extent that there is no way you could reason that Ren would be able to get through it. Satanael casting Cosmic Flare on a level 10 being immune to nuclear attacks would get his attack nullified, so would literally anyone.
"And no, it wasn't a feat of the people"
I literally never said, claimed, or even implied this.
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''Lesbian noises''
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Grath drops another epic truth bomb
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I agree with Darku-Chan btw
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Can we keep this discussion off of the Versus Threads? We have a discussion thread for this exact reason, even a CRT for the specific topic of the scaling chain.
Regardless, AP isn't too big of a factor concerning this match.
It all comes down to whether Makoto can Great Seal before Ren can take him down.
Personally, I don't see how Makoto can pull off the Great Seal, what with the amount of pressure Joker can dole out with his gun spam, effectively-infinite SP and massive AOEs with spells like Cosmic Flare and Morning Star, save for an immediate follow-up off of Diarahan. Even then, that's assuming he chooses to Seal in the first place, which is already highly unlikely.
Regardless, AP isn't too big of a factor concerning this match.
It all comes down to whether Makoto can Great Seal before Ren can take him down.
Personally, I don't see how Makoto can pull off the Great Seal, what with the amount of pressure Joker can dole out with his gun spam, effectively-infinite SP and massive AOEs with spells like Cosmic Flare and Morning Star, save for an immediate follow-up off of Diarahan. Even then, that's assuming he chooses to Seal in the first place, which is already highly unlikely.
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Erebus: Whatever the means is, there is nothing pointing towards a power corrolation in the two. It is entirly possible to control someone stronger than you. Even then it was not direct control or puppetry of some sort. There is nothing concrete to suggest an AP corrolation.
Solacis: When I said we, I should have said I. I'll apolagize for that. I will admit I came across as abrasive.
Seal: Fair enough. However it still stands that it can miss and the BFR resistance is relevant since sealing only bypasses conventional durability and not reistances.
Abstract: Shadows are abstract existances most of the time. Shadows of individuals are not since if they die the user dies. "Persona" shadows are, but they are never killed. Type-2 abstraction states that they will enlessly regen so long as the abstraction remains. But your right. Damn ya got me. This point was stupid.
Solacis: When I said we, I should have said I. I'll apolagize for that. I will admit I came across as abrasive.
Seal: Fair enough. However it still stands that it can miss and the BFR resistance is relevant since sealing only bypasses conventional durability and not reistances.
Abstract: Shadows are abstract existances most of the time. Shadows of individuals are not since if they die the user dies. "Persona" shadows are, but they are never killed. Type-2 abstraction states that they will enlessly regen so long as the abstraction remains. But your right. Damn ya got me. This point was stupid.
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Summary:
However the BFR resistance does still remain if we have agreed on the method of sealing (Erebus had reached Nyx to call about the fall; makoto banished it to the shadow relm). Ren also carries a resistance to resistance negation so the seal will not bypass this (only ignores durability). Makoto also can miss with the seal and realistically would not use it at the start with his inability to gauge power levels. He needs to be at full health to cast the seal and is vunerable to nuclear and gun attacks, both which Sataneal carries. Sleep or forget statuses could be used on Makoto to good effect, but require a persona switch on Jokers part.
Resistance to resistance negation would also not cancel out Sinful Shell. As noted above somewhere it would translate it to pure damage of whatever aspect it is originally (negate its negation) and apply Makotos resistance to it. Like Makoto would be immune to Megidolaon because it is raw energy projection, something he is immune to (not sure this applies to nuclear). Sinful shell would be reduced to a very strong gun attack, AP wise still doing heavy damage to Makoto, since he holds no resistance to them. Joker also has infinite SP and is invunerable to energy projection as well, so physical attacks are all Makoto has outside the seal (as far as I recall; I aknowledge I may be missing something here). So, yeah.
Edit: Yeah, my bad Solacis. Not the place for AP arguments.
However the BFR resistance does still remain if we have agreed on the method of sealing (Erebus had reached Nyx to call about the fall; makoto banished it to the shadow relm). Ren also carries a resistance to resistance negation so the seal will not bypass this (only ignores durability). Makoto also can miss with the seal and realistically would not use it at the start with his inability to gauge power levels. He needs to be at full health to cast the seal and is vunerable to nuclear and gun attacks, both which Sataneal carries. Sleep or forget statuses could be used on Makoto to good effect, but require a persona switch on Jokers part.
Resistance to resistance negation would also not cancel out Sinful Shell. As noted above somewhere it would translate it to pure damage of whatever aspect it is originally (negate its negation) and apply Makotos resistance to it. Like Makoto would be immune to Megidolaon because it is raw energy projection, something he is immune to (not sure this applies to nuclear). Sinful shell would be reduced to a very strong gun attack, AP wise still doing heavy damage to Makoto, since he holds no resistance to them. Joker also has infinite SP and is invunerable to energy projection as well, so physical attacks are all Makoto has outside the seal (as far as I recall; I aknowledge I may be missing something here). So, yeah.
Edit: Yeah, my bad Solacis. Not the place for AP arguments.
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"Ren also carries resistance to resistance negation so the seal will not bypass this"
The Great Seal is not an almighty attack. It's not an attack at all. Ren gets his resistance to resistance negation from nullifying Rays of Control, an almighty attack. Ren's resistances don't do anything here.
"the BFR resistance does still remain if we have agreed on the method of sealing"
I already addressed this. It's could only potentially be a form of BFR, and this is contradicted by what we see in game. In the fight against Erebus, they note the fact that they are in exactly the same place as they were when Makoto sealed him away, so Erebus was not physically moved out of the way by the seal.
"As noted above somewhere it would translate Sinful Shell to pure damage"
This is backed up by nothing. Seriously, it's not even an argument. Makoto's resistance to resistance negation allows him to nullify Almighty attacks. It has been explicitly shown to nullify almighty attacks, not reduce their damage or change it to a different type. Sinful Shell may have some special properties on top of being an extremely powerful almighty attack, but there is zilch to suggest this. An argument is a conclusion, backed up by premises. This is not even an argument, it is just a conclusion. And without premises, the point is moot.
"However, it still stands that it can miss"
This is based off of very little. Yes, Joker has dodged AOE attacks before, and the Great Seal is an AOE. But on an absurdly larger scale. Even the most massive AOE attacks Ren has dodged like Morning Star are, at best, a few dozen metres in diameter. The Great Seal was shown to consume the entire moon in it's radius and was easily visible from the surface of Earth. Stating that Ren could dodge the Great Seal because he's dodged AOE's before is a massive NLF.
And to address the Sealing points...
Yes, while I have admitted a few times that I exaggerated the extent to which Makoto would be willing to use the Great Seal, it's still perfectly viable and plausible.
First, Makoto has no reason to underestimate Satanael. Makoto has repeatedly shown throughout Persona 3 to put himself and his wellbeing underneath his duty. And if he believes that Satanael is a big enough threat, he'd be willing to use it. He's demonstrated as such perfectly against Nyx, using it the first moment he possibly could when he knew that he couldn't beat Nyx otherwise.
Also, it wouldn't turn into an infinite loop of "Ren attacks, Makoto has to heal, repeat". Remember, Makoto still nullifies Almighty Attacks. If Ren tries to use Sinful Shell or an Almighty attack while Makoto is at full health, he can use the seal. If Ren misses an attack, he can use the seal. If Ren tries an attack that Makoto nullifies, he can use the seal. If Ren attempts to use an ailment and it fails, he can use the seal. And considering that Messiah has Salvation, it'd be easy enough for him to heal up every time Ren attempted to attack him until the moment that he'd get the chance to swing back.
Look, I'm definitely not saying that Ren can't win here. Ren is fully capable of taking the win through ailments, serious damage capacity, or anything of the sort. However, with all of my previous arguments in place, I think the chance that Makoto would either win with the Great Seal or by using his other attacks is far more likely and applicable.
Also, one final note. Looking back at my previous comments, it's clear that I've begun to sound aggressive again. I apologise again for that, I've mentioned before that I have a tendency to sound far more aggressive than I really am when I'm trying to get my point across. I just want to be clear I have absolutely no malice towards anyone I debate against.
The Great Seal is not an almighty attack. It's not an attack at all. Ren gets his resistance to resistance negation from nullifying Rays of Control, an almighty attack. Ren's resistances don't do anything here.
"the BFR resistance does still remain if we have agreed on the method of sealing"
I already addressed this. It's could only potentially be a form of BFR, and this is contradicted by what we see in game. In the fight against Erebus, they note the fact that they are in exactly the same place as they were when Makoto sealed him away, so Erebus was not physically moved out of the way by the seal.
"As noted above somewhere it would translate Sinful Shell to pure damage"
This is backed up by nothing. Seriously, it's not even an argument. Makoto's resistance to resistance negation allows him to nullify Almighty attacks. It has been explicitly shown to nullify almighty attacks, not reduce their damage or change it to a different type. Sinful Shell may have some special properties on top of being an extremely powerful almighty attack, but there is zilch to suggest this. An argument is a conclusion, backed up by premises. This is not even an argument, it is just a conclusion. And without premises, the point is moot.
"However, it still stands that it can miss"
This is based off of very little. Yes, Joker has dodged AOE attacks before, and the Great Seal is an AOE. But on an absurdly larger scale. Even the most massive AOE attacks Ren has dodged like Morning Star are, at best, a few dozen metres in diameter. The Great Seal was shown to consume the entire moon in it's radius and was easily visible from the surface of Earth. Stating that Ren could dodge the Great Seal because he's dodged AOE's before is a massive NLF.
And to address the Sealing points...
Yes, while I have admitted a few times that I exaggerated the extent to which Makoto would be willing to use the Great Seal, it's still perfectly viable and plausible.
First, Makoto has no reason to underestimate Satanael. Makoto has repeatedly shown throughout Persona 3 to put himself and his wellbeing underneath his duty. And if he believes that Satanael is a big enough threat, he'd be willing to use it. He's demonstrated as such perfectly against Nyx, using it the first moment he possibly could when he knew that he couldn't beat Nyx otherwise.
Also, it wouldn't turn into an infinite loop of "Ren attacks, Makoto has to heal, repeat". Remember, Makoto still nullifies Almighty Attacks. If Ren tries to use Sinful Shell or an Almighty attack while Makoto is at full health, he can use the seal. If Ren misses an attack, he can use the seal. If Ren tries an attack that Makoto nullifies, he can use the seal. If Ren attempts to use an ailment and it fails, he can use the seal. And considering that Messiah has Salvation, it'd be easy enough for him to heal up every time Ren attempted to attack him until the moment that he'd get the chance to swing back.
Look, I'm definitely not saying that Ren can't win here. Ren is fully capable of taking the win through ailments, serious damage capacity, or anything of the sort. However, with all of my previous arguments in place, I think the chance that Makoto would either win with the Great Seal or by using his other attacks is far more likely and applicable.
Also, one final note. Looking back at my previous comments, it's clear that I've begun to sound aggressive again. I apologise again for that, I've mentioned before that I have a tendency to sound far more aggressive than I really am when I'm trying to get my point across. I just want to be clear I have absolutely no malice towards anyone I debate against.
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I'll address this tomorrow need to sleep. Don't worry though, I'm not offended and I never really assume someone is offended by my comments. Its more so that I feel embarrased when I break proper conduct. My Canadian-ness won't allow it (seriously its a thing; genuinely feel terrible if I don't hold the door open for someone)
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Regarding AOEs, Ren has dodged Big Bang Order and Cosmic Flare before. Both attacks massively eclipsing the Great Seal in range.
You're completely misunderstanding Makoto's mindset here, Grath.
He's viewing this similarly to a random encounter with a Shadow; that is, he's willing to kill without hesitation. That's it. There's nothing to imply that he sees this as a climactic battle at the end of a long journey in which his loss means the end of the world. It's not a matter of arrogance preventing him from using the Great Seal by underestimating his opponent. It's a matter of willingness for sacrificing his soul to stop an enemy that poses no risk to anyone but himself.
"I'm about to die if this battle goes on. I know, I'll give up my life to save my life!" If that isn't a ridiculous train of thought, I don't know what is. So much for a tactical genius. Makoto is more likely to attempt to flee and fight another day than he is to just give up his life and afterlife to beat an enemy that's threatening no one but himself. That results in a loss in the context of this match, but for him, it's standard procedure.
There's no reason for Makoto to use the Great Seal in this match at all. He needs to be bloodlusted for him to use it in ANY match, unless the OP specifies that it's a battle to decide the fate of the world or at least his friends.
You're completely misunderstanding Makoto's mindset here, Grath.
He's viewing this similarly to a random encounter with a Shadow; that is, he's willing to kill without hesitation. That's it. There's nothing to imply that he sees this as a climactic battle at the end of a long journey in which his loss means the end of the world. It's not a matter of arrogance preventing him from using the Great Seal by underestimating his opponent. It's a matter of willingness for sacrificing his soul to stop an enemy that poses no risk to anyone but himself.
"I'm about to die if this battle goes on. I know, I'll give up my life to save my life!" If that isn't a ridiculous train of thought, I don't know what is. So much for a tactical genius. Makoto is more likely to attempt to flee and fight another day than he is to just give up his life and afterlife to beat an enemy that's threatening no one but himself. That results in a loss in the context of this match, but for him, it's standard procedure.
There's no reason for Makoto to use the Great Seal in this match at all. He needs to be bloodlusted for him to use it in ANY match, unless the OP specifies that it's a battle to decide the fate of the world or at least his friends.
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Even if we assume that he is unlikely to use the Great Seal, it's certainly not Makoto's only win-con.
I've already addressed that Sinful Shell would be nullified by Makoto. If you'd like to continue debating that, sure, I'm more than willing to. But you haven't provided any further arguments to that point.
The problem here is that, without Sinful Shell, Ren has very few good offensive options against an opponent with similar AP. I'm fully willing to believe and accept that Satanael's other attacks are also extremely powerful. But there is nothing to even remotely suggest that his other attacks would be as good as Sinful Shell in AP. If you took Type 8 Immortality out of the equation, saying that all of his attacks would be just as powerful as Sinful Shell is like saying that Ren would one-shot Yaldabaoth with a Maegaion. It'd be an extraordinary claim, and as we all know, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. As such, Ren's options here are limited.
Comparitively, Makoto does not have any "special" attack with Messiah where his AP comes from, and all of his attacking moves are relatively equal in strength. As such, there is not any loss here in applicable AP if Makoto chooses to use different abilities.
On top of all this, Makoto's Empowerment has explicitly worked in helping him survive attacks against beings with notably greater AP while already on Death's Door. It'd be NLF to say that Ren therefore can't kill him, which I definitely wouldn't say. But it'd be far, far more difficult to kill him than if Ren was fighting a being with just comparable Durability.
As such, Ren can't use his best options when it comes to AP, while Makoto can, and Makoto's Empowerment would make him far more difficult to kill than a regular person at his durability level.
Even if we assume that the chance of Makoto using the Great Seal is low, I'd still argue Makoto has the advantage.
I've already addressed that Sinful Shell would be nullified by Makoto. If you'd like to continue debating that, sure, I'm more than willing to. But you haven't provided any further arguments to that point.
The problem here is that, without Sinful Shell, Ren has very few good offensive options against an opponent with similar AP. I'm fully willing to believe and accept that Satanael's other attacks are also extremely powerful. But there is nothing to even remotely suggest that his other attacks would be as good as Sinful Shell in AP. If you took Type 8 Immortality out of the equation, saying that all of his attacks would be just as powerful as Sinful Shell is like saying that Ren would one-shot Yaldabaoth with a Maegaion. It'd be an extraordinary claim, and as we all know, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. As such, Ren's options here are limited.
Comparitively, Makoto does not have any "special" attack with Messiah where his AP comes from, and all of his attacking moves are relatively equal in strength. As such, there is not any loss here in applicable AP if Makoto chooses to use different abilities.
On top of all this, Makoto's Empowerment has explicitly worked in helping him survive attacks against beings with notably greater AP while already on Death's Door. It'd be NLF to say that Ren therefore can't kill him, which I definitely wouldn't say. But it'd be far, far more difficult to kill him than if Ren was fighting a being with just comparable Durability.
As such, Ren can't use his best options when it comes to AP, while Makoto can, and Makoto's Empowerment would make him far more difficult to kill than a regular person at his durability level.
Even if we assume that the chance of Makoto using the Great Seal is low, I'd still argue Makoto has the advantage.
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"Comparitively, Makoto does not have any "special" attack with Messiah where his AP comes from, and all of his attacking moves are relatively equal in strength. As such, there is not any loss here in applicable AP if Makoto chooses to use different abilities."
i mean couldn't you argue something similar for Ren? Yeah sinful shell is his strongest move but the rest shouldn't be several times weaker to the point they couldn't do a ton of damage to yaldaboth. Not to mention Messiah's options are INSANELY limited. It has 2 offensive options gods hand and megadolaon. One of which Ren negates the other Ren heavly resists. Meanwhile Makoto doesn't resist Nuclear attacks and Messiah is weak to Curse attacks.
(Though to be fair Makoto negates riot gun.)
i mean couldn't you argue something similar for Ren? Yeah sinful shell is his strongest move but the rest shouldn't be several times weaker to the point they couldn't do a ton of damage to yaldaboth. Not to mention Messiah's options are INSANELY limited. It has 2 offensive options gods hand and megadolaon. One of which Ren negates the other Ren heavly resists. Meanwhile Makoto doesn't resist Nuclear attacks and Messiah is weak to Curse attacks.
(Though to be fair Makoto negates riot gun.)
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