Persona 3 Protagonist vs Persona 5 Protagonist

[Solacis]

Those fragments of Nyx inciting the creation does not make it comparable to the Collective Unconscious, Grath, unless you're referring to a different statement. I'd also like to point out that we've already settled that Nyx isn't the absolute top-dog of the Persona universe simply due to the lack of information and feats. Nyx's raw feats top out at 4-A due to creating the dimension full of stars, with the only reason she's Low 2-C being that she can one-shot her own Avatar.

As far as the scaling is concerned, Nyx is massively stronger than UA Makoto, who is roughly stronger than Nyx Avatar, which can take on the combined forces of end-game SEES, who are not too much stronger than either Elizabeth or Lavenza.

Meanwhile, GoC Yaldabaoth is much stronger than the combined forces of the end-game Phantom Thieves, who are roughly stronger than HG Yaldabaoth, who is much stronger than the combined might of Igor and Lavenza (presumably Margaret, too, since it's out-of-character for her to leave).

Putting it like that, I'd say Satanael Ren, who's massively superior to GoC Yaldabaoth, would have an equally massive AP advantage here.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

i still retain my vote for joker fra seems more convincing imho

 

[Jesterofgames]

Also voting Joker FRA

 

[DarkGrath]

Hmm... I'm leaning towards neutral at this point, simply because there are a few things I don't quite understand. This is not an argument, just a clarification. Where does Ren's resistance to Sealing come from?

 

[DarkGrath]

Alright, I've just looked through the previous threads to figure it out. And I'll be blunt, I have a massive problem with his End-Game resistances.

They are based purely on the fact that Yaldabaoth has all of those hax, and yet they weren't outhaxxed in the battle against him. The big problem here is that Yaldabaoth never even attempted to use his hax (such as sealing) in that battle. Not only was he completely stomping them through AP alone, but even if you wanted to suggest that they were comparable, that's not evidence that they resist his sealing when Yaldabaoth never even attempted it. That's moreso just evidence that Yaldabaoth doesn't use his hax in character (which is especially applicable for sealing, which he used only once in a 100+ hour game). Assuming that they have resistance to Sealing just because Yaldabaoth didn't attempt to use sealing on them is fallacious reasoning.

With that in mind, I'm still sticking with Makoto here. As we see with the scenes in which they gain the Universe Arcana and Satanael, Ren leads with Sinful Shell, which Makoto would nullify through Resistance to Resistance Negation. It's even shown clearly that Ren doesn't have any other abilities with Satanael, so his only choice is to use a different Persona (which would in turn massively reduce his AP and Durability). Makoto, on the other hand, is shown to lead with the Great Seal. And considering that Ren's Resistance to sealing is quite faulty reasoning, this should logically work and take Ren out immediately.

And to address the elephant in the room, yes, using the Great Seal does kill Makoto. But the only requirement for sealing to be considered a win is if it can keep the opponent sealed away for over a week, and Makoto can survive for over a month after using the Great Seal. So it'd still be a win for Makoto. Also, if Ren is willing to kill in this match, and Makoto sees him as a threat, then he'd almost certainly be willing to use it (since Makoto has been shown quite clearly to be willing to sacrifice himself in the event of a major threat).

So Ren's only possible way of hurting Makoto would require switching out of Satanael, which would massively reduce his AP and Durability, almost certainly below Makoto's level. His only move on the same level as Makoto, Sinful Shell, is nullified. And Makoto's in-character move would seal Ren away for well over a week without killing either of them, which would give Makoto the win.

I'm not going to insist on this just yet, mind you. Ren does still have Resistance to sealing listed on his profile, so if I'm arguing that the reasoning is faulty I'll have to bring that up on a CRT first before it can be considered applicable. I'll bring it up on the massive Persona CRT going on and if it goes through, I'll get back to this thread. But for now, I still think Makoto takes the win.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

i have a better question.


Who is the better ladies man And cheater

 

[DarkGrath]

i have a better question.


Who is the better ladies man And cheater

Obviously Makoto.

He literally sacrificed himself to stop a God just so that he wouldn't have to confront all the girls he dated on Valentines Day, whereas Ren got caught.

the absolute madlad

 

[ShivaShakti]

Door-Kun FRA

 

[DarkGrath]

@Thatsafloridathing, it's because the line-through command in the quote wasn't finished. It drew the line through the end of the quote and thought it was still going.

 

[Thatsafloridathing]

I think that's 3 for the better cheater emo messiah

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Well that's one way to run away from dating sims. Truly madlad. He inherit the joestar secret technique


Changing my vote to doorkun for dat reaso

 

[HST_Master]

i have a better question.


Who is the better ladies man And cheater

Makoto. Mans dates all the girls and doesn't ever get caught. GG

 

[Solacis]

Ren leads with Sinful Shell, which Makoto would nullify through Resistance to Resistance Negation. It's even shown clearly that Ren doesn't have any other abilities with Satanael, so his only choice is to use a different Persona (which would in turn massively reduce his AP and Durability).

Uh, Satanael has several innate skills, like Riot Gun and Cosmic Flare. Besides that, we don't restrict the power-up to just Satanael at Joker's peak. If we did that, then Makoto wouldn't get his Universe Arcana/Messiah power-up when using Armageddon, because he'd be equipping either Helel or Satan.

Also, as I've previously mentioned, Makoto's AP is notably inferior to Ren's. The same applies to their durability. Ren would be able to tank Armageddon with his own Resistance to Resistance Negation. Also note that Makoto needs to be at full HP to use the Great Seal. One hit and he'd need to use Diarahan just to try again, and that just gives the significantly more agile Joker the chance to follow up with Sinful Shell.

Even assuming the Great Seal would work, how would Makoto manage to pull it off while Joker is spamming his zero-cost spells?

 

[DarkGrath]

Satanael is quite clearly shown in the final battle to only have Sinful Shell as an ability. Abilities like Cosmic Flare are only available when you fuse him in NG+, which I really shouldn't have to explain why that isn't canonical. You can quite clearly see Joker can only use Sinful Shell while he has Satanael, and it's clearly established that his massive power boost is ''because'' of Satanael. There's no reason to assume that gaining Satanael also made every single one of his other Personas more powerful than Yaldabaoth.

Also, no, I'm not arguing Makoto would use skills like Armageddon. Ren would resist those, so it's not even a considerable win-con, and so I wouldn't think he'd even try to use it.

Again, we run into the same problem here. Satanael has nothing that can actually harm Makoto due to resistances, while Makoto has an easy win-con through the Universe Arcana. Even if you argue that Ren with Satanael has a higher AP then Makoto with the Universe Arcana, Ren without Satanael definitely isn't even close. Ren's only two options are to either switch out of Satanael and get stomped through AP, or stick with Satanael and have absolutely nothing that could harm Makoto, just sticking there as an impenetrable wall until Makoto uses the Great Seal. Ren doesn't have any risk-free win-cons here, in fact, his only win-cons put him at risk of getting completely stomped before he can even use them. Yet the very first thing Makoto does with the Universe Arcana is an easy win-con that should work against Ren. And considering that Ren's opening move with Satanael is Sinful Shell, which we already established Ren nullifies, Makoto would easily be able to remain at full health.

In summary, Ren has no way of harming Makoto without intentionally putting himself at a massive disadvantage, and Makoto can easily use the Great Seal to take Ren out in-character.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Makes Lesbian noises at DarkGrath

Awoo!

 

[DarkGrath]

Makes Lesbian noises at DarkGrath
Awoo!

thank you, as usual

 

[Eganergo]

Can you even resist armageddon? It bypasses even innate resistance and deal constant damage of 9999 (The highest damage possible in one attack). I would assume that will insta-kill joker or anyone else.

 

[DarkGrath]

Yes, actually, Joker would likely resist it. Since Armageddon is an Almighty Attack, which works as a form of resistance negation. Joker resists resistance negation due to nullifying Rays of Control. Technically it's possible that he would be harmed by Armageddon, since statistically speaking it is far more powerful than Rays of Control, but there isn't enough evidence for that. While I still think that Makoto would win, I can fully agree that Armageddon isn't a win-con.

 

[Solacis]

Satanael is quite clearly shown in the final battle to only have Sinful Shell as an ability. Abilities like Cosmic Flare are only available when you fuse him in NG+, which I really shouldn't have to explain why that isn't canonical. You can quite clearly see Joker can only use Sinful Shell while he has Satanael, and it's clearly established that his massive power boost is ''because'' of Satanael. There's no reason to assume that gaining Satanael also made every single one of his other Personas more powerful than Yaldabaoth.

Why would the NG+ depiction of Satanael be non-canon if it's in the base game, and Satanael himself specifically alludes to when Joker first awakened to him? Also, we've always considered the protagonists' second awakenings to have a positive effect on the AP of all their abilities. For Makoto, it's because we attribute the strength to the Universe Arcana. For Yu, it's him attaining the World. For Ren, it's the support of the masses and later also obtaining the World. This is the reason we gave the protagonists such a high degree of Empowerment in the first place.

Besides, I think you're really underselling the AP gap here. To remind you, these are their current respective scaling chains:

For Makoto: Makoto Yuki w/ The Universe >/= Nyx Avatar >> End-Game SEES = Erebus = Late-Game Makoto Yuki >/= Elizabeth >/= Lavenza

For Ren: Satanael Joker >>>>> God of Control >>> Post-Qlipoth Phantom Thieves > Holy Grail >> Lavenza

Makoto is definitely not tanking Sinful Shell when the end-game Phantom Thieves are already comparable to Nyx Avatar. Yaldabaoth one-shots Nyx Avatar and Makoto w/ The Universe. Ren one-shots Yaldabaoth. Sinful Shell would obliterate Makoto, and Ren can spam it.

 

[DarkGrath]

Remember, Makoto has resistance to resistance negation. Sinful Shell would be nullified. Also, the fact that Satanael's depiction in NG+ alludes to when Joker first awakened to him is just even more evidence that it isn't canonical, since then you're arguing that Satanael said that before Joker first awakened to him. You'd also be arguing that:

1: NG+ exclusive content is canonical, which has never been accepted as legitimate in Persona. That's why we don't consider the Twins Fight canonical either.

2: You'd be arguing that Joker could use Satanael before quite clearly awakening to him in cutscenes, which is baseless and contradicted by the game itself.

3: You'd still then be arguing that Satanael with all of his other skills is still nowhere near as strong with any of his other skills as he is with Sinful Shell, as even bringing Satanael into the final battle still gets Ren completely stomped by Yaldabaoth.

Satanael being available in regular play is just a non-canonical NG+ feature. NG+ has never been used in Persona as a way of determining statistics, with it even being rejected plenty of times in the past, and there is absolutely no reason this would be the only exception, especially considering how much it contradicts.

 

[Solacis]

Remember, Makoto has resistance to resistance negation. Sinful Shell would be nullified.

Resistance Negation isn't a form of attack on its own. All it says is that Makoto resisted an attack that's inherently incapable of being resisted. Otherwise, it's pure non-elemental damage that was just shrugged off.

Assuming that Makoto nullifies Almighty as a whole just because he can keep it from piercing his resistances is erroneous, and assuming that Makoto shrugs off Sinful Shell is No-Limits Fallacy. Makoto shrugged off Death. Nyx has AP comparable to Yaldabaoth since both can one-shot Nyx Avatar. Death and Rays of Control are comparable in AP, and both were shrugged off by Makoto and Ren respectively.

On the other hand, Ren one-shot Yaldabaoth. Sinful Shell >>>>> Rays of Control = Death. Makoto would get destroyed; if not by one shot, then by the successive ones that Ren can throw out casually.

As for the thing about New Game+, you're just blatantly wrong. NG+ has always counted as a way of determining certain statistics. How would we know that Elizabeth has Masakado, Nebiros, Alice, etc. if we didn't look at her NG+ boss fight? It's obvious we've never looked at P3P before I brought it up in the revisions, otherwise Makoto would have always scaled to Elizabeth. The same applies to Margaret and the Twins. We consider their movesets canon based on their appearance in NG+. The same applies to any cutscenes exclusive to NG+ that expand on characters and lore.

This isn't even the first time we've used NG+ movesets for ultimate personas. It's right there on Yu Narukami's page: Izanagi-no-Okami's moveset is listed as per its appearance in NG+.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I am in agreement with Solacis here.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Im in agreement with Dark Grath

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Dark grath and solacis will argue about dis for al eternity and eventually making out so we have user doujin and P3 and p5 protag doujin with P4 sliding in somewhere

 

[ShivaShakti]

Dark grath and solacis will argue about dis for al eternity and eventually making out so we have user doujin and P3 and p5 protag doujin with P4 sliding in somewhere </div>

It ends with me turning both of them into women with my divine eldritch powers, and then forcing them to submit to my will OwO

 

[Jesterofgames]

By the way can people still vote for Makoto fra when most the reasons where debunked. Such as Armageddon (deemed it doesn't one shot ren and isn't a win condition.) Higher AP (that was deemed false.) And The great seal (which at most makes this a tie.)

 

[DarkGrath]

Heyo everyone! Just letting you know, I'm currently debating the resistance to Yaldy's hax against Solacis on a CRT right now. This has so far been one of the more interesting versus battles I've been involved with, considering how in-depth you can go for both sides of the argument. However, there really isn't much I can debate here until the resistance revisions are either accepted or rejected. I have not abandoned this thread, and I would absolutely love to continue, but there isn't much to say right now. I'll be back to debating on here soon.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

1 eternity later darkgrath then used great seal to stop solacis from debating and as a result caused an eternal stalemate

 

[DarkGrath]

1 eternity later darkgrath then used great seal to stop solacis from debating and as a result caused an eternal stalemate </div>

great thinking though I think Kira's idea is more likely

 

[Solacis]

lesbian noises

 

[DarkGrath]

lesbian noises

you know, it'd be a great idea to argue about that

 

[ShivaShakti]

''Happy Lesbian Noises''

 

[Overlord775]

'*'Touhou noises

OvO

 

[Solacis]

Well, with the changes to the Phantom Thieves' resistances to Sealing and my personal oversight in the mechanics of Almighty, Makoto can probably win with the Great Seal. That said, only IF he chooses to use it, which is honestly really out-of-character, and even then, only IF he manages to, since he needs full HP to do it.

Ren has several options to keep him from using the Great Seal:

- So much as scratching Makoto would force him to heal/regen before he could use it. Ren can easily keep up the pressure with his more reliable ranged options and greater spam capabilities.

- Makoto has no resistance to Sleep Manipulation, so Ren's Dormina would instantly incapacitate him.

- Makoto has no base resistance to Memory Manipulation, so Ren's Makajam would also incapacitate the moment Makoto switches to a Persona without Unshaken Will.

Still voting for Ren.

 

[MattadorProne]

I don't understand the reasoning why the seal is a win condition anyways. This is a battle in-verse, so we don't have to, and shouldn't, use a catch all sealing application.

The seal has been demonstrated to block entities in the seal of souls, never directly affecting Nyx (Its only shown to prevent Erberus from contacting Nyx). Even if it was BFR, Joker resists that. Therefore its application, imo, would be power nullification via sealing, preventing Joker from accessing the sea of souls and thus seal his persona. Victory for Makoto would have to make these assertions:

-Makoto is capable and willing to do this. Erburus is notably weaker than Elizabeth (although admittadly this Elizabeth is in the P4A key) and Joker. He also will 100% die doing this so it would be irrational to consider it his first move. He needs full health for an attempt too. He would also need to seal the entirity of Jokers sea of souls, all his personas, not just Sataneal (who at least matches Messiah in power).

-Makoto can sucessfuly cast this (it always landing is a game mechanic, especially if we are allowing the similar sinful shell to possibly miss). It requires all his resources to cast, failing this he dies (missed skills still cost hp). Joker can spam sinful shell all day (which negates Makotos Regenerationn, since it is listed as immortality. Since Makoto is listed as an immortal it will mess him up, possibly outright kill him since the immortality was what kept him alive vs Nyx). Joker is also notable more acrobatic than him and has greater ranged options to make attacking him more difficult.

-Makoto also must seal Jokers rebellious will. It is not the same thing, as it does not come from the sea of souls, but is an aspect of himself (was able to access it, but not his personas, during his execution; will not resist or be weak to anything during this). This allows him everything in his without personas key (standard attacks, gun). Edit: This would be his theif outfit

-Assume that Makoto can still use his persona without his soul (which is stated to be lost on his profile upon sealing) and has the energy to continue, even stay awake. Otherwise the match is either inconclusive or Jokers win if they chill for a month.

Joker has far more win conditions to win this always, without the need for any large assumptions. Hell, he could just pick-pocket Makotos evoker (one of Morganas confident abilities to steal items from enemies; SEES memebers have dropped them before, including Makoto in Q2 if we count that). If a suicidal tactic is Makotos only win condition, then I'd argue there is little chance for his victory. Armageddon (with its 2 max uses) also can miss, borders on a no limits fallacy, and would be an all or nothing tactic. Therefore my vote is for Joker

 

[MattadorProne]

On armageddon: Both Joker and Makoto are both stronger than Elizabeth. Elizabeth has 20 000 health (I think, it definatly can't one shot her) while armageddon does 9999 damage. It can at best 2 shot her and therefore at best 2 shot Joker. The actual damage numbers are game mechanics. Makoto wastes 50% or 100% of his SP and Joker casts Diarahan for basically nothing. I'd argue it would take even more than 2 to begin with since Joker is far far stronger than Elizabeth (and Nyx Avatar).

I know it was already debunked, but I thought I'd definativly exclude it since I noted it. I'm basically saying Makoto has no options left.

 

[Jesterofgames]

Doesn't great seal at most make the inconclusive btw?

 

[Solacis]

Makoto can last well over a day without his soul. So technically, anyone caught by the Great Seal would be incapacitated for over a day, while Makoto is still 'alive'.

 

[DarkGrath]

My apologies for being so inactive the past few days. I've been doing a playthrough of Dark Souls, which... Well, I shouldn't need to elaborate why that's been taking up my time, amongst other things in the day mind you. I have quite a large response to this topic planned, but I'm on mobile right now so it's be obnoxious to write it up. I will be back!

 

[Overlord775]

bump