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Part II Naruto Revisions

LordTracer

LordTracer

He/Him
VS Battles
Thread Moderator
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Credit to @M3X, this is all directly quoted from his sandbox.

In this thread we are going to discuss the powerscaling, keys, multipliers and calculations for the Shippuden part of the manga.

To make this thread easier, I think we should discuss things keys first, and then multiplier, then the calcs, and after all of this, the scaling.

Keys
First of all, the keys. There are some keys we should remove, some we should add. For example, Kakashi's keys. Kakashi has a Part I and a Part II keys, but he didn't train or did something between the timeskip of Part I and II. Kakashi should have the following keys:

Pre Great Ninja War | Great Ninja War | Double Mangekyō Sharingan | New Era

And put his base AP and the Susano AP for the third key, like "X levelnormally, Y level with Susano". This key isn't a Susano exclusive key, so his base AP should be there as well.

Gaara
Gaara is another character that has a lot of keys, and some of them are useless, like the Kazekage rescue arc. This key is useless because there are no difference between this Gaara and the War Gaara, the only difference are his clothes. So, for him (Shippuden and above keys):
Part II | New Era
The New Era key should include the The Last movie, I don't remember any impressive feat for Gaara in this movie, so I don't even know if that's worth to create a key.

Naruto
Yeah, our boy Nardo. He has a lot of useless keys for some transformation, and we should put them in the same key. Like that
Tier: X in his base form, X2 with 4 Tails, X3 with Sage Mode, X4 with 6 Tails | Y | Z with Chakra Cloak, Z2 with Kurama Avatar, Z3 with Sage Mode | W, W2 with Kurama Avatar, W3 with Senjutsu
Base | Kurama Chakra Mode | Bijū Mode | Sage of Six Paths Mode
  • Note: I wrote with letters and numbers because we will need to discuss the Tiers.
Changes:
  • Put 4 and 6 Tails within the base key, as well for Sage Mode. (Considering 6 Tails > Sage Mode > 4 Tails > Base)
  • Make a Tier for Naruto using Kurama Cloak (Bijū Mode), and one for the Kurama Avatar. The reasons for this is, Naruto using only Kurama Avatar could match Edo Madara, if we consider what I said above, then Madara would only scale to Naruto's AP using the cloak, not the Low 6-B AP rating from Kurama Avatar. This would make scaling better. The Madara thing was the first example that I remember, but there are more.
  • Make a Tier for SOSP Naruto, one for Kurama Avatar and another using Senjutsu.
Hashirama
For some reason, Hashirama has an Edo Tensei key, and only this key has the Sage Mode. We all know that's wrong. Hashirama should have only one key with all his AP and abilities together (except for Edo stuff). All Tiers should remain like that, since he has different jutsus with different Tiers, wouldn't make any sense to scale the stronger jutsu to his normal AP.

Sasuke
Sasuke has the same problems as Naruto, useless keys. That's what we should do
Hebi | Mangekyō Sharingan (Taka) | Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan | Rinnegan Sasuke
Changes:
  • Put Kirin and Curse Mark ratings within his base form, no need for a Curse Mark key
  • If his base form is weaker than the Kirin (I think only the first to keys are) then we put the base AP rating there, and a different Tier for the Kirin, just like with Naruto transformations for his base key
  • Separe his base AP rating from Susano or some other abilitie
The names of fhe first two keys should be Hebi and Taka. Hebi is the name of his team, this Sasuke is the one from the start of the Shippuden til the Itachi defeat, with the Curse Mark and such, after that, he got the Mangekyō Sharingan, lost the Curse Mark and such. Just to point out the difference.

We should also remove all Edo Tensei keys when the character doesn't show anything different, with the exception of Itachi and Nagato for the obvious reasons. Anything the Edo forms can do, the prime version of the character can do as well, since the Edo body is limited and weaker than the prime one. With rare exceptions but that's it.
 
Last edited:
Just to note regarding the calculations that the "Sasuke's Kirin" calc is currently being contested so it probably should be in the list until that is sorted out.

Also M3X's Rock Lee destroys a meteor calc needs to be updating to use the correct number of Shinobi involved which if I recally correctly is eleven or twelve, not six.

Aside from that - regarding the Edo Tensei keys, I'm 99% sure that the main reason most of those keys exist is because the Edo Tensei versions have immortality and regeneration that the original selves do not possess.
 
Edo Tensei exists because they have Low Godly, Infinite Stamina, and being already dead.
 
Now, I would like to list my disagreements with the proposals.
LordTracer said:
For example, Kakashi's keys. Kakashi has a Part I and a Part II keys, but he didn't train or did something between the timeskip of Part I and II.
Click to expand...
Kakashi in Part I was complete fodder to the Sannin. In his own words and inner thoughts, he’d get obliterated by Orochimaru if they were to fight. On top of that, Kabuto, his equal, could get one-shot by a rusty Tsunade.

But Kakashi in Part II is a candidate for Sixth Hokage, can square up with the Deva Path, fight Kakuzu (who should be Kage level for reasons I’ll list later) and should therefore at least be nearing the level of Tsunade.
LordTracer said:
This key is useless because there are no difference between this Gaara and the War Gaara
Click to expand...
HEAVY disagree here. Gaara during the War was able to match Rasa, he was stated to be comparable to Shukaku, and he was able to block attacks from Madara’s Susano’o and hold back his Tengai Shinsei (granted, with help from Ōnoki). Gaara from the Kazekage Rescue Arc’s feats don’t match up to that level.
 
So why is Madara so far below Sage Mode Hashirama when he literally fought Hashirama after the Kyuubi was gone to the point where both of them were completely exhausted and pretty dead on there feat? I kinda doubt he would just drop out of it when he was clearly trying to either apprehend or kill him, which he does at the end by catching him off guard with a clone.
 
I would like if we discuss about the keys first, and in the next thread, the ratings. We can't discuss ratings now if their keys will change
 
So yeah, I think Gaara and Kakashi’s keys are fine the way they are.

However, I think the jinchūriki need new keys since they were amped in the War Arc, as stated by the Eight-Tails. So their alive selves are much weaker (meaning the Pre-War Bijuu wouldn’t scale to the 6-C calcs), and would therefore need new keys. I think they should be:

Base | Version 1 | Version 2 | Bijuu Mode | Six Paths Edo Tensei
 
Naruto Uzumaki (Part II)​

Tier: A-1, A-2 with 1-3 Tailed Form, A-3 with 4 Tailed Form, A-4 with Sage Mode, A-5 with 6 Tailed Form | B-1 | C-1, C-2 with Kurama Avatar, C-3 with Sage Mode | D-1, D-2 with Kurama Avatar, D-3 with Six Paths Kurama Avatar

Key: Base | Kurama Chakra Mode | Bijū Mode | Six Paths Sage Mode

Sasuke Uchiha (Part II)​

Tier: A-1, A-2 with CS2 or with Kirin | B-1, B-2 with Susanoo | C-1, C-2 with Susanoo, C-3 with Juugo Curse Mark | D-1, D-2 with Susanoo, D-3 with Six Paths Susanoo

Key: Hebi | Taka | Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan | Rinnegan

Naruto Uzumaki (New Era)​

Tier: A-1, A-2 with Bijū Sage Mode | B-1, B-2 with Six Paths Sage Mode

Key: The Last | New Era

This is absolutely what the key arrangement should be
 
It might be worth separating out Sage Mode from that first key for Naruto, and putting it between the Base key and the Kurama Chakra Mode key.
 
Actually I’m gonna go back a bit. I have a slight disagreement with Part II Naruto’s keys. He did get stronger in between the Tenchi Bridge Arc and Hidan/Kakuzu arc. He went through all that training to create the Rasenshuriken, and he’s stated/implied throughout that arc to be capable of surpassing Minato, and it’s implied that he did so with the Rasenshuriken (a volume summary even says that the Rasenshuriken rivaled Minato in power), so I think he should maybe have Pre-Rasenshuriken Training and Post-Rasenshuriken Training keys.
 
Sage Mode doesn't need it's own key, because it is stacked on both Naruto's Base Form and Biju Mode, so that makes it work out better

His Tailed Beast Transformations may need one though if we had to separate them
 
I'm fine with separating either the Tailed Beast Transformations or the Sage Mode. One or the other because that first key will get real cluttered otherwise.
 
I feel like they should all be the same key, because no matter which one you separate it, it would look weird.

Like, if we separate Sage Mode and keep the Kyuubi Chakra forms in the base key. KN6 is stronger than Sage Mode. But Sage Mode is the key after it.

Or if we separate the Kyuubi Chakra forms and keep Sage Mode with the base key. KN0 through KN5 is weaker than Sage Mode. It doesn’t seem like proper progression.
 
@LordTracer; it's not a completely smooth progression but not all keys are like that. Some later keys can be weaker than the keys that came before them.
 
Damage3245 said:
@LordTracer; it's not a completely smooth progression but not all keys are like that. Some later keys can be weaker than the keys that came before them.
Click to expand...
I know they can be. Kakashi’s keys would be like that since New Era would be after Dual Mangekyō Sharingan. But with Naruto, the majority of the Kyuubi chakra forms wouldn’t have different tiers so it’s not that cluttered. At least IMO.

Going by the current tiers, Naruto would look something like this:

7-C, higher up to Three Tails, 7-A with Four Tails, higher with Sage Mode, even higher with Six Tails, 6-C with Eight Tails

Granted, that is still fairly cluttered. But I think it’d look better than:

7-C, higher up to Three Tails, 7-A with Four Tails higher with Six Tails, 6-C with Eight Tails | 7-A OR 7-C, 7-A with Sage Mode | 7-C up to Three Tails, 7-A with Four Tails, higher with Six Tails, 6-C with Eight Tails

But whatever, I won’t push it. Whatever the majority decides.
 
I agree with the Jinchuriki having a pre-war key thats below 6-C, that way we can scale the Akatsuki to them without breaking the scaling. Also 6 tailed Naruto has a High 7-A calc, he is not simply "higher" in the 7-A tier. Also base Naruto in the later arcs of part 2 needs to be above 7-C since he can fight with Deva path in hand to hand.
 
LordTracer said:
So yeah, I think Gaara and Kakashi’s keys are fine the way they are.

However, I think the jinchūriki need new keys since they were amped in the War Arc, as stated by the Eight-Tails. So their alive selves are much weaker (meaning the Pre-War Bijuu wouldn’t scale to the 6-C calcs), and would therefore need new keys. I think they should be:

Base | Version 1 | Version 2 | Bijuu Mode | Six Paths Edo Tensei
Click to expand...
Obito also scales above those Bijuu because he's the one who amped them in the first place and he could fight KCM2 Naruto who pretty much Solo'd all of them.
 
Actually, now that I think about it, giving Naruto more than one key for his base form could fix the clutter problem.

Pre-Rasenshuriken Training | Post-Rasenshuriken Training | Pain Arc | Fourth Shinobi World War | Kyuubi Chakra Mode | Bijuu Mode | Sage of Six Paths

Then it would look more like:

A, A-1 with One Tailed Cloak, A-2 with Four Tailed Cloak | B, B-1 with Rasenshuriken | C, C-1 with Sage Mode, C-2 with Six Tailed Cloak, C-3 with Eight Tailed Cloak | D, D-1 with Sage Mode | E | F, F-1 with Kurama Avatar, F-2 with Sage Mode | G, G-1 with Kurama Avatar, G-2 with Six Paths Kurama Avatar

I think this fixes all of the clutter problems, while keeping it properly progressing.
 
Sasuke’s keys are fine as:

Hebi | Taka | Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan | Rinnegan

A, A-1 with CS2, A-2 with CM2, A-3 with Kirin | B, B-1 with Mangekyō Sharingan, B-2 with Susano’o | C, C-1 with Susano’o, C-2 with Jūgo Curse Mark | D-1, D-2 with Susano'o, D-3 with Six Paths Susano'o

I think Taka Sasuke should have a tier without his MS, since he did have his feats of fighting with Post-Pain Arc Naruto.
 
LordTracer said:
Actually, now that I think about it, giving Naruto more than one key for his base form could fix the clutter problem.

Pre-Rasenshuriken Training | Post-Rasenshuriken Training | Pain Arc | Fourth Shinobi World War | Kyuubi Chakra Mode | Bijuu Mode | Sage of Six Paths

Then it would look more like:

A, A-1 with One Tailed Cloak, A-2 with Four Tailed Cloak | B, B-1 with Rasenshuriken | C, C-1 with Sage Mode, C-2 with Six Tailed Cloak, C-3 with Eight Tailed Cloak | D, D-1 with Sage Mode | E | F, F-1 with Kurama Avatar, F-2 with Sage Mode | G, G-1 with Kurama Avatar, G-2 with Six Paths Kurama Avatar

I think this fixes all of the clutter problems, while keeping it properly progressing.
Click to expand...
That actually seems kinda fair.
 
LordTracer said:
Actually, now that I think about it, giving Naruto more than one key for his base form could fix the clutter problem.

Pre-Rasenshuriken Training | Post-Rasenshuriken Training | Pain Arc | Fourth Shinobi World War | Kyuubi Chakra Mode | Bijuu Mode | Sage of Six Paths

Then it would look more like:

A, A-1 with One Tailed Cloak, A-2 with Four Tailed Cloak | B, B-1 with Rasenshuriken | C, C-1 with Sage Mode, C-2 with Six Tailed Cloak, C-3 with Eight Tailed Cloak | D, D-1 with Sage Mode | E | F, F-1 with Kurama Avatar, F-2 with Sage Mode | G, G-1 with Kurama Avatar, G-2 with Six Paths Kurama Avatar

I think this fixes all of the clutter problems, while keeping it properly progressing.
Click to expand...
To me, that's way too many keys and it feels very cluttered
 
Metalija said:
I agree with the Jinchuriki having a pre-war key thats below 6-C, that way we can scale the Akatsuki to them without breaking the scaling. Also 6 tailed Naruto has a High 7-A calc, he is not simply "higher" in the 7-A tier. Also base Naruto in the later arcs of part 2 needs to be above 7-C since he can fight with Deva path in hand to hand.
Click to expand...
Scaling comes latee. Oh my
 
I think it more reasonable to break them down like this:

I think we can reasonably break Naruto down into four keys:
Pre-Pain
Pain
War Arc
Sage of Six Paths

Pre-Pain: My reasoning is that before pain, we don't really have to big an upgrade for Naruto besides his acquisition of Rasen Shuriken which is just an attack, so all of shippuden before then should reasonably fall under this key with the transformations included.

Pain Arc gives us a new transformation with its own host of powers and probably a boost to Naruto's base tier though to what extent I don't know.

War Arc has him upgraded again with some more training, the gaining of a new transformation and the loss of his old Kurama-related ones. We can also add biju mode to this one since it's just an evolution to his KCM mode without any noticeable boost to base.

SOSP because this is when we see Naruto's base gets another boost alongside an evolution of his KCM.

So it would look something like this:

A, A-1 with One Tailed Cloak, A-2 with Rasenshuriken, A-3 with Four Tailed Cloak | B, B-1 with Sage Mode, B-2 with Six Tailed Cloak, B-3 with Eight Tailed Cloak | C, C-1 with Sage Mode, C-2 with KCM, C-3 with Kurama Avatar, C-4 with KCM-Sage Mode | D, D-1 with Kurama Avatar, D-2 with Six Paths Kurama Avatar

I don't actually remember all the transformations clearly so correct me if I'm wrong in any of them.
 
KCM and KCM2/Bijuu Mode are two forms of their own, which can’t be stacked like Sage Mode, so I think they should be their own keys.

I could agree with changing the base keys to Pre-Pain Arc | Post-Pain Arc | Fourth Shinobi World War though.
 
After we reach a conclusion on Naruto’s keys, I’d like to discuss adding some new keys for the Sannin.
 
Eight Tailed Naruto broke out of Pain’s Chibaku Tensei, it would have a different tier, so...
 
LordTracer said:
KCM and KCM2/Bijuu Mode are two forms of their own, which can’t be stacked like Sage Mode, so I think they should be their own keys.

I could agree with changing the base keys to Pre-Pain Arc | Post-Pain Arc | Fourth Shinobi World War though.
Click to expand...
I understand you can't stack the forms but I think it reasonable to still place them within the same key due to how the new forms happen within the same arc, are themselves just a progression of one another, and because Naruto's actual base remains unchanged. So keeping them within the same key helps cut down on unneeded repetitiveness
 
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