Part 2: Bleach God Tiers

[AKM sama]

This is closely related to a couple of previous threads. For context, here they are:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/sennas-feat-2-ft-bleach-cosmology.128164/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/im-still-based-bleach-edition.122601/

Posting this thread after discussing with some of the knowledgeable members on Bleach (Arc, Cyber and Damage). This is going to be short. I mostly agree with almost everything from Arc's previous thread (the second one that is linked). We just need to re-analyze Reio's and Yhwach's ratings as per the conclusions reached in the previous thread (the first one that is linked).

Reio's current rating comes from this:

Reio stabilizes the Soul Society. Reio's death results in destruction of the planet. Which, in turn, results in destruction of everything connected to it. From the previous thread, this is a 5-B feat. But since everything else is also getting destroyed as a result this will lead to 3-A/Low 2-C Environmental Destruction as per the currently accepted size of the Garganta.

Yhwach's current rating comes from this:

Yhwach wanted to destroy the Soul Society, and along with it, the Living World, and everything else connected to it too. So that the boundary between life and death is removed, making them one, a single world without fear. Him destroying the Soul Society would have accomplished that. This is also a 5-B feat, same as above, resulting in 3-A/Low 2-C Environmental Destruction.

There is a fair bit of scaling involved, above the 5-B feat, due to multipliers and all. I'll let Arc get into it.

---

My second issue is with Prime Soul King's AP rating, which reads:

His almighty power was used by the Five Noble Families as the foundation for splitting the original Universe into the world of Kishi, the world of Reishi, and Hueco Mundo; stated to possess power that transcends everything

We know he created the entire world structure in Bleach, but we have no information about the time frame (whether he did it in one-shot or took years), or method (could most probably be reality warping which may not scale to other stats), or any specific information about this to form a concrete opinion.

Due to that, I think "Unknown, at least [God tier's rating], likely much higher" is more suitable for him rather than any absolute rating.

 

[Everything12]

Makes sense.

 

[Kingcrim212]

This seems fine to me.

 

[Theendzero13]

So the proposal is changing the 3-A ,possible low 2-C to : 5-B , with 3-A, possible low 2-C environmental destruction?

 

[Antvasima]

This seems to make sense to me as well.

 

[Antvasima]

So the proposal is changing the 3-A ,possible low 2-C to : 5-B , with 3-A, possible low 2-C environmental destruction?

Or some form of reality warping that does not scale to physical power, I think.

 

[AKM sama]

So the proposal is changing the 3-A ,possible low 2-C to : 5-B , with 3-A, possible low 2-C environmental destruction?

For WSK and Yhwach, yes.

For Prime SK, "Unknown, at least [God tier's rating], likely much higher".

 

[SilentBob34]

Yhwach has an extremely casual planet level feat with raising the Seiretei to SK palace, so him using all his power to destroy a single planet makes sense to me. Honestly the 3A environmental stuff is unnecessary since like Antvasima said it could be a reality warping effect

 

[Worthless]

Is SK universal durability still stays the same?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This looks good to me

 

[Dalesean027]

Okay and just making sure I have this right Senna's feat has now moved to now being the pushing of two planets/worlds correct so that it's consistent to this. That's all I'd like to know otherwise I agree

 

[Kingcrim212]

Okay and just making sure I have this right Senna's feat has now moved to now being the pushing of two planets/worlds correct so that it's consistent to this. That's all I'd like to know otherwise I agree

Yes it's going back to planetary

 

[AKM sama]

Is SK universal durability still stays the same?

No.

Okay and just making sure I have this right Senna's feat has now moved to now being the pushing of two planets/worlds correct so that it's consistent to this. That's all I'd like to know otherwise I agree

Yes.

 

[SilentBob34]

Oh @AKM, I also agree with this by the way, just wanted to let you know lol

 

[Lormac_CC]

Agree with this

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

method was via his power, as in raw power/energy as was clarified on the previous thread dealing with the raw scans

just gonna clarify that and leave it there since i dont really have an interest in the thread.

 

[Nierre]

 

[PrinceofPein]

The low 2c well is something i dont think should even be there at all, while the dangai and well any universe is a low 2C construct that does not make the destruction low 2c as a 3A or a H3A would still get the job done.

 

[Tyri456]

Prime soul king created the Garganta and the Dangai… not just the realms, how he can be any lower than high 3A.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I'll let Arc get into it.

Get into it I shall.

Preface
Tentatively I agree with AKM's proposals. I feel without a cosmic supporting feat, coupled with planet sized realms, it's far more consistent to rate the God Tiers as planetary. No one is saying that the universe isn't being destroyed, it's just a case now where it's not concrete that they're destroying something like Garganta directly, and the scans do imply it's more environmental destruction. This isn't a case of "the Bleach universe isn't being destroyed", this is a case of how it is happening. As AKM described, destroying the foundation (Soul Society) causes everything else (ie Garganta) to get destroyed with it; in which case, without any cosmic supporting feats and planet sized realms, universal destruction occurs via destroying the Soul Society (a planet) leading to Garganta collapsing as well (a universal dimension). I'd like to imagine I've seen every universal Bleach argument, so unless someone pulls some uber megamind argument out of thin air, I think tier 5 God Tiers is most consistent without any tier 3 supporting feats to back up the universal interpretations. Anyways, onto the scaling.

Scaling
So a few things to get out of the way, I'm not going to bother posting scans unless contested, because this is stuff we already accept scaling-wise with our current ratings.
Gran Rey Cero is vaguely above a 10x AP amp (it was decided in the GRC thread months back that there was sufficient evidence to suggest GRC is a greater amp than Cero Oscuras, CO is stated to be a 10x AP amp)

• Ichigo's Hollow transformations scale to or above a 10x AP amp as well (Ichigo used his Hollow Mask to match Grimmjow's GRC when they were relative base to base, Ichigo used his Hollow Mask to match Gin's Buto Renjin which is stated to be a 10x AP amp in the databooks when they were relative base to base)
• WSK's durability scales to his stability based on how the energy system in Bleach works (this has been beaten to death forever and is how we treat it currently)
• WSK's durability upscales Senna's feat and is 5-B (this is how we treated it in the past and how we treated it with the uni scaling as well, Senna's explosion did no visible harm to the realm's dimensional barriers wherein WSK nearly shattered those barriers instantly, plus numerous statements that the realms will cease to exist without WSK's stability)
• Any Soul King character has 3-A/Low 2-C Environmental Destruction (destroying SS causes Garganta to collapse which is its own universal spacetime, it's unclear of if the contents would be destroyed or if the entire structure would be destroyed hence the 3-A, possibly Low 2-C as per usual)
• PSK is either vaguely higher than God Tiers or scales to Garganta (PSK created Garganta and while the time frame is unknown, it's not implied to have take 10^26 years [that's how long it would take for the feat to drop from 3-A to 4-A], so I think it's fine to rate him as possibly/at most Garganta tier)

The above bullet points AKM and I have discussed and found acceptable, and forms the ground work for the scaling. I'll type out the scaling, which hasn't changed, but is just being replaced with new values.

• True Shikai Ichigo scales to WSK (he cut WSK, he's stated to be capable of replacing WSK, and he scales relative to Almighty Yhwach and a casual Soul King Yhwach)
• Almighty Yhwach scales above WSK and slightly above TS Ichigo (Yhwach flat out states he's far superior to WSK and he is able to damage TS Ichigo)
• Hollow form TS Ichigo scales 10x above TS Ichigo (see the multiplier for his Hollow form above)
• Hollow form TS Ichigo's GRC Getsuga Tenshou is another 10x AP amp (combining GRC and GT would be more potent than GRC which I refer you to its multiplier above)
• Soul King Yhwach scales to Hollow TS Ichigo's GRC GT (after getting serious he was able to stop and crush the GRC GT)
• True Bankai Ichigo and Muken Aizen scale to Soul King Yhwach (both were able to fight SK Yhwach, cutting through a serious SK Yhwach's black reiatsu, and in Ichigo's case he bisected Yhwach twice, there's some nice narrative consistency with Yhwach fearing Ichigo's Bankai as well)
• True Bankai Ichigo scales even higher with his Hollow form and GRC GT amps (no one else except maybe Prime Reio scales to these tho, since he didn't make use of his Hollow powers in Bankai)

The specific values of the scaling are as follows:

• The lowest 5-B's are baseline at 2.487e32 joules (WSK, TS Ichigo, Almighty Yhwach)
• The highest 5-B's are 10x the prior at 2.487e33 joules (Hollow TS Ichigo)
• The lowest 5-A's are 10x prior at 2.487e34 joules (Hollow TS Ichigo's GRC GT, Soul King Yhwach, Muken Aizen, TB Ichigo)
• The middle 5-A's are 10x prior at 2.487e35 joules (Hollow TB Ichigo)
• The highest 5-A's are 10x prior at 2.487e36 joules (Hollow TB Ichigo's GRC GT, possibly Prime SK)

The character profile tiers would look like:

• Reio: 5-B, 3-A, possibly Low 2-C via Environmental Destruction | Unknown, likely at least 5-A, [possibly far higher, 3-A, possibly Low 2-C via Environmental Destruction] or [possibly/at most 3-A to Low 2-C]
  • Keys: Weakened | Prime
• Ichigo: 5-B, 5-A with Bankai | 5-B, 5-A with Gran Rey Cero Getsuga Tenshou, higher with Bankai, far higher with Bankai and Gran Rey Cero Getsuga Tenshou
  • Keys: True Zanpakuto | Merged Hollow Form
• Aizen: 5-A
  • Keys: TYBW
• Yhwach: 5-B | 5-A, 3-A, possibly Low 2-C via Environmental Destruction
  • Keys: Almighty | Soul King

Quick aside, imo we can remove Yhwach's Mimihagi absorbed key and merge it with his Soul King key. He doesn't get a quantifiable amp from Mimihagi, nor does he gain a lot in terms of ability to really justify a key for it. Also, he immediately absorbs Reio after Mimihagi anyhow, so Mimihagi absorbed Yhwach is only in the manga for a couple pages at most.

Conclusion
Not much else to say really. As I've said, without supporting cosmic feats coupled with now planetary realms, I think tier 5 is consistent. Pretty much every facet of this argument has been exhausted. At the risk of being that guy, maybe the topic of cosmic Bleach should be soft thread banned until the anime/new Hell arc/potential databooks come out. Although, tbh I don't think anyone really cares to touch Bleach God Tiers much after the year+ long "back and forth" that's happened for them lol.

 

[Teezar]

I agree with everything

 

[AKM sama]

I think Damage said that the Hollow amp isn't accepted as 10x. It's accepted as 5x multiplier. But other than that particular detail, I can agree to everything and the basic idea.

Also with it being noted in the discussion rules to be a topic that is banned. Other people have raised similar concerns.

 

[PrinceofPein]

stuffs

while i agree with the well the proposal, like i already said nothing warrants a "possibly low 2c", it should be a straight up H3A

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I think Damage said that the Hollow amp isn't accepted as 10x. It's accepted as 5x multiplier. But other than that particular detail, I can agree to everything and the basic idea.

Also with it being noted in the discussion rules to be a topic that is banned. Other people have raised similar concerns.

Naw we accept Ichigo's specifically as being a 10x amp post-Grimmjow fight since the GRC thread.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

while i agree with the well the proposal, like i already said nothing warrants a "possibly low 2c", it should be a straight up H3A

Eh I disagree, I think that's purely semantics, and that the possibly exists because of that vagueness. I don't care to die on that hill so if staff are fine with possibly Low 2-C for the ED stuffs cool, if they're not also cool.

 

[LordTracer]

Sorry if this is derailing, but shouldn’t Senna have a profile if her feat is being used to scale the god tiers?

 

[Damage3245]

Naw we accept Ichigo's specifically as being a 10x amp post-Grimmjow fight since the GRC thread.

Still have my doubts on this. As far as I can recall that was just a durability feat from Masked Ichigo; not definite proof that his AP and physical strength was multiplied by ten.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I can put together a Senna profile when I got time. No one cares about or her uses her in vs debating which is why she doesn't have one

Still have my doubts on this. As far as I can recall that was just a durability feat from Masked Ichigo; not definite proof that his AP and physical strength was multiplied by ten.

Res Grimmjow can harm HM Ichigo with his physicals, meaning Res Grimmjow has physicals on par with HM Ichigo's dura, via Newton's laws Res Grimmjow has dura ~ his physicals, HM Ichigo can harm Res Grimmjow, HM Ichigo has physicals on par with Res Grimmjow's dura.

 

[Damage3245]

Well, I'll get into multiplier stuff another time. That's not the focus of this thread.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

True, well as of now 10x AP is what Ichigo has on his profile for his later Hollow amps. So I’ll keep the AP changes to reflect such until you address those amps at a later time.

 

[LordTracer]

I can put together a Senna profile when I got time. No one cares about or her uses her in vs debating which is why she doesn't have one

Mkay, nice. And that is understandable reasoning

 

[PrinceofPein]

Eh I disagree, I think that's purely semantics, and that the possibly exists because of that vagueness. I don't care to die on that hill so if staff are fine with possibly Low 2-C for the ED stuffs cool, if they're not also cool.

it is not semantics, nothing or no feat warrants possibly low 2c which is well destruction of affecting of entire space-time continuum or well affecting a space with 2 dimension of time

 

[AppleLord]

I agree with the OP.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

How is the 2nd part a debunk of his creation feat? He still had to create the spiritual realm entirely and the Garganta.

The entire verse as we know it is 1,000,000 years old. Ichibei explained it as all of this happening 1,000,000 years ago. This was went over in one of the 94847473 threads. Why does a relevant timeframe matter for a Low 2-C structure?

The only thing that took any long period of time in the lore of the SK is the other families disremembering him. Which Narita goes out of his way to say it took a long time.

 

[The_Alxhemist]

Yhwach has an extremely casual planet level feat with raising the Seiretei to SK palace, so him using all his power to destroy a single planet makes sense to me. Honestly the 3A environmental stuff is unnecessary since like Antvasima said it could be a reality warping effect

Wasn't that calced to Multi Cont to Moon level?

 

[AKM sama]

How is the 2nd part a debunk of his creation feat?

It's not. His creation isn't being denied. Just that we don't know any specifics.

Did he create everything with a huge release of omnidirectional energy wave and everything came into being with a whoosh or a boom in one-shot? Or did he spend years or decades crafting small pockets at a time? Did he use some unknown reality warping power and popped everything into existence with a flick of a finger or a wave of hand which wouldn't scale to his base physicals? There are no answers to these questions.

 

[The_Alxhemist]

Whether or not this actually goes through or not, can a discussion rule please be implemented to restrict Bleach God tiers Upgrade/Downgrade threads at least until the anime expands upon the details as Kubo is reportedly overseeing and adding new details?.

As Damage and a few others then repeatedly said that we should've waited for the anime to drop before downgrading or upgrading. Which thankfully is next year and hopefully we'll all be alive and safe to conduct whatever upgrades or downgrades for the God tiers. It seems like an endless back and forth at this point.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

It's not. His creation isn't being denied. Just that we don't know any specifics.

Did he create everything with a huge release of omnidirectional energy wave and everything came into being with a whoosh or a boom in one-shot? Or did he spend years or decades crafting small pockets at a time? Did he use some unknown reality warping power and popped everything into existence with a flick of a finger or a wave of hand which wouldn't scale to his base physicals? There are no answers to these questions.

Hence why I proposed the possibly or at most scaling to Garganta.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

You ignored the entire 2nd half of my post.

Timeframe would be irrelevant as I explained above. All that matters is he created it. Cause it’s again Low 2-C. And the fact it makes 0 mention of it taking a great deal of time.

The method is spliting the original world into 2 worlds. So he made the universe into 2 using his own power as stated. He then added a boundary between them to stop them from coming back together. And separated the new 3 realms via the Garganta and all future realms that came along.

The most likely method accepted is that it all literally just came to be since Gremmy is well his brain...

 

[SilentBob34]

Wasn't that calced to Multi Cont to Moon level?

That was before the distance between the Seiretei and SK palace got a new distance