Overlord CRT

[OppaiSenpai5]

It literally says that it disregards magical defense, as in the stat magic defense. It does that because it cuts through space, yes, but it still has a damage value like a nornal spell.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Dura neg doesn't always need to be a one shot. Reality Slash can still cut through space to ignore magical defenses, as well as ignoring physical ones, to damage people with a slash.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Feels like we're getting a bit off track here honestly, The exact mechanics of reality slash isn't our focus afaik.

 

[Apeironaxim]

without Evileye, Gagaran and Tia would have lost 100%, not much of a contest. Entoma was easily blocking Garagan's Super Combo with just her bug shield and her natural muscles for example. However, I can agree that Entoma likely isn't orders of magnitude above them, though she's obviously a good deal above them.

So either giving a "Possibly" rating to the Adamantites, or even a straight up rating of whatever the cloud calc is, could work

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

Yes, dura neg does not mean it one shots. Reality Slash has not been stated to ignore physical defenses. which is kinda important when it is an actual stat that characters have. Just because an attack can ignore durability does not mean it can fully ignore it, Reality Slash cannot cut you in two if you are high level enough.

Entoma may have had an easy time with them, but she could not one shot them, limiting how much above them she could be.

And what kind of "possibly" rating are you even going to give them?

 

[Apeironaxim]

whatever rating the cloud stuff would come out to, assuming it needs a recalc

Big jumps can easily happen when giving a "Possibly" or "Likely" rating

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Yes, dura neg does not mean it one shots. Reality Slash has not been stated to ignore physical defenses. which is kinda important when it is an actual stat that characters have. Just because an attack can ignore durability does not mean it can fully ignore it, Reality Slash cannot cut you in two if you are high level enough.

Entoma may have had an easy time with them, but she could not one shot them, limiting how much above them she could be.

And what kind of "possibly" rating are you even going to give them?

Didn't it cleave through shalltears armor before she reversed time on it or was that an anime only thing? Anime has messed with to many visuals in my head tbh

Being fair quite a bit of that fight was decided by evileye having vermin bane, without it fly breath would have ruined them. Still don't disagree she can't be to massivly above them since she couldn't oneshot. Though different verses can treat oneshotting very differently depending on context.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

Even when it is completely impossible for them to scale to that cloud calc when you have Soul Eaters and Death Knights taking heavy or outright lethal damage from falling from great height. Sould Eaters take damage from a 500 m fall without air resistance, which would be like 9-B levels of energy that are hitting them.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Even when it is completely impossible for them to scale to that cloud calc when you have Soul Eaters and Death Knights taking heavy or outright lethal damage from falling from great height. Sould Eaters take damage from a 500 m fall without air resistance, which would be like 9-B levels of energy that are hitting them.

I can think of several series where creatures take high damage from falling despite their supposed strength. And where did it say the damage was lethal? I remeber it being mentioned but it wasn't seen as a big deal as the soul eaters would heal from the surrounding people instantly.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

Death Knight falling from that bridge killed them in volume 11.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Pretty sure the Great Rift's depth is literally unknown

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Death Knight falling from that bridge killed them in volume 11.

Your intentionally misrepresenting what happened, they fell into the great rift in the dwarvern kingdom, the rifts thats depths are completly unkown and its even mentioned nobody knew what monsters lurked in the darkness. It's far from them simply falling off a bridge, they fell into an ancient pit that none have ever returned from. Considering their are natural portals connecting lava lakes and all kinds of other magic weirdness in overlord we can't even say for sure it's the fall that ended them.

 

[Moritzva]

from my understanding it's extremely common practice to scale non-combat spells to combat spells (even if I disagree heavily with this practice), although there may be special circumstances in Overlord that makes scaling unfeasible.

I have not seen any evidence or circumstance that would qualify as special for this matter.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

Even falling from low Earth orbit is still 9-B.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Even falling from low Earth orbit is still 9-B.

And? Also no air resistance

 

[Apeironaxim]

Also wouldn't falling and impacting the ground count as bludgeoning damage? So it would do a much greater amount of damage to an undead?

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

You gotta be kidding me right now. Even without air resistance you'd need to fall over 1000 km to reach tier 8 even.

 

[Apeironaxim]

And we also don't exactly know it was killed by the fall anyway. The dwarves have no idea what could be down there.

And again, fall damage is so prevalent as hurting things far above tier 8 in media that it's practically a meme

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

Maruyama literally told us how they died in his author excerpts on volume 11:

Even so a Death Knight that crashes into the ground will end up with 1 HP. Thereupon it bounces and dies.

The 1 HP thing being from their ability that lets them survive the one shot with 1 HP of course.

 

[Moritzva]

Fall damage is the most common outlier across all of fiction and I see no reason to treat Overlord specially if we do not treat every single other verse as Tier 9 for suffering fall damage.

This is an argument that has to be discussed and applied on a wide basis rather than just here, as it's a matter of altering site-wide standards.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

Fall damage is the most common outlier across all of fiction and I see no reason to treat Overlord specially if we do not treat every single other verse as Tier 9 for suffering fall damage.

This is an argument that has to be discussed and applied on a wide basis rather than just here, as it's a matter of altering site-wide standards.

But it's not an outlier, the low and mid tiers are getting rescaled to 9-B based off this calc because the previous was wrong.

 

[Moritzva]

Have we looked into any other potential calcs?

My argument is simple -- if we lack any Tier 8 calcs at all, sure, but fall damage is not a significant or very relevant argument at all.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

I can't think of anything for the lv 40 and below characters that puts them in tier 8. The ones that they had were wrong and I explained why they are wrong in the op. I know that fall damage usually isn't relevant, but I'm showing it to highlight that these character are in fact 9-B, being able to dish out 9-B damage, and taking 9-B damage with moderate injury or worse. Also, it is mentioned that someone of Ainz's level would not be damaged by such things while it is made a point that fall damage does in fact hurt or even kill these low level mobs.

He would not be hurt even if he hit the ground. Ainz had once conducted an experiment with one of the vassals who had similar damage reduction to his own, and it had not felt any pain even after being dropped from a height of one kilometer.

 

[Apeironaxim]

This could potentially be worth something

Under the power of the magic lightning, the Skeletal Dragons and their supposed absolute immunity to magic were torn asunder.
Even though the Skeletal Dragons had been disintegrated, the lightning strikes did not disappear. The two arcs of dragon-shaped lightning seemed to be searching for their quarry, then they raised their heads and sprang at their final prey.

And while undead have been shown to wither away when they die, it doesn't seem very consistent, and there have been times undead didn't instantly disappear

Ainz kills the undead Swords of Darkness team, and afterwards, gathers their corpses into a corner, so they didn't disappear:
Just as Lizzie cried out, Dyne groaned menacingly and lurched at them. Ainz immediately thrust his greatsword at Dyne. His throat pierced, Dyne’s head shuddered and then he collapsed.
Nobody else moved.
[...]
“My grandson! Nfirea’s gone!”
Lizzie returned, shouting at the top of her voice Ainz had gathered all the corpses into a corner of the room, and calmly replied:
“I checked their gear. None of them were searched. That being the case, the opposition must
have intended to kidnap Nfirea.”

Ainz says corpses of things like zombies should stay and rot away at a natural rate/after a while:
It was not that they would lose to Zombies, the weakest of the undead, but at the very least they would have left corpses behind.
Corpses vanished over time in YGGDRASIL, as did those of Zombies. But in
this world, the Zombies’ corpses should have remained forever after being
struck down. Of course, dead Zombies would begin to rot and after a while
they would become skeletonized, and after that the bones would disintegrate.

The language also points to it being the lightning attack that disintegrated, saying the Skeletal Dragons "had been disintegrated" after being hit by the Chain Dragon Lightning.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

I don't get it.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Ant, dunno how I can help out here. I don't particularly understand the Manga apparent norm of ignoring official content. Doesn't make sense to me. I did the calc as requested, would rather sit out on manga threads in the future. Even if I did enjoy the Overlord anime.

 

[Antvasima]

@All staff members:

So what should we do here?

 

[Antvasima]

Mr._Bambu:

Okay. No problem.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

This is an argument that has to be discussed and applied on a wide basis rather than just here, as it's a matter of altering site-wide standards.

I mean, not really. Outliers by definition are context-based. There's nothing saying certain kinds of outliers are scrutinized more than others - and what should matter is the context of Overlord itself unless the site has made a specific reservation about this (it hasn't), like it does for regular bullets threatening Tier 8 and above characters.

I don't like writing things off as PIS or Outliers in general. If fall damage genuinely threatens high level undead that's an anti-feat for higher ratings, and you'd need to supply extensive proof that the characters can survive higher level bludgening/blunt damage in spite of that anti-feat, not assume the anti-feat is PIS to start with.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

This has gone absolutely nowhere. I will summarize my arguments for the characters' AP and hopefully we can come to a consensus on the topic and move on to the rest of what this CRT is about.

Low Tiers
As outlined in the op, these characters' tier 8 calcs are wrong. The main calc they scaled off of has been recalced at 9-B while the other one has outright been dismissed. This and the fact that even level 35 to 40 mosters have been damaged or even killed by fall damage soldifies these characters as 9-B. I'll stress, this is not an outlier or just some stupid, common trope you'll see in fiction, because while characters of this level have been damaged by gravity, characters with Ainz's level of stats have explicitly been stated to not be damaged by such things, as I outlined a few comments ago. This says one thing: Characters level 40 and below are not at the point where they'll remain undamaged after falling from great heights, while someone with Ainz's stats is. The low tiers are 9-B.

Mid Tiers
These would really just be the Pleiades. We've seen that while they are significantly stronger than the low tiers, members of Blue Rose were able to tank attacks from Entoma, even if they never really managed to legitametely injure her, meaning that they couldn't be too far apart in tiers. Well, that's how the scaling already is and the calc they scaled off is invalid as mentioned before. But here's the thing, the Pleiades, or rather doppelgängers with 90% of their stats, were able to tank attacks from Ainz, who is a high tier and currently scaling off of "Creation" freezing a lake. This doesn't make sense with the current scaling, whether they're 9-B or High 8-C, they shouldn't be able the tank a tier 7 attack. Normally, this would warrant downscaling them from the tier 7s, but it wouldn't make sense because if they were to be tier 7, the same problem would repeat itself with the low tiers where they, too, would need to be downscaled from the tier 7 feat. But I've already made it clear, the low tiers are obviously just 9-B and lack feats any higher than that.

High Tiers
I think I've made my point clear already, but let me reiterate: Scaling these characters to "Creation" or even that cloud calc that we have makes them out to be billions of times stronger than the other characters when they obviously aren't. And choosing to just downscale all other characters from those feats ignores the fact that most of them are clearly just wall level with clear anti-feats to prove that they are nowhere near tier 7. Something better should be chosen as a feat to scale the high tiers from, something that's actual destruction as opposed to environmental destruction, like Demiurge's "Meteor Fall" destroying a city wall or Ainz's "Nuclear Blast" blowing away the buildings around him (though I wouldn't know what those would yield or how to figure it out). I don't think that lines of reasoning like "we do it for other verses" have much merit to them when they can introduce this many inconsistencies as in the case of scaling Overlord characters to the energy of their non-offensive spells. For this to be valid, not only would the high tiers need other destructions feats that at least come close to the calculated energy of these non-offensive spells, but the low and mid tiers would also need feats of their own putting them way higher than what we can currently estimate them out to be, otherwise the scaling wouldn't make any damn sense.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that you arguments seems to make sense.

Which staff members should I send notifications to so they can comment here?

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

Not sure. All the staff members listed as supporters for Overlord are already in this thread. I wouldn't know if they are any others familiar with the series, so you should choose whoever you feel is best for the job.

 

[Antvasima]

I meant can you list all the staff members who have commented here earlier, so I can send them reminders. The notifications are not always reliable.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

Moritzva, Dargoo_Faust, Oblivion_Of_The_Endless, Mr_Bambu and Ricsi-viragosi if retired staff count.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks.

@Moritzva @Dargoo_Faust @Mr._Bambu @Ricsi-viragosi

Would you be willing to help out with evaluating this please?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Seems fine to me, and I'd assume the kudus from Dargoo is to mean he agrees as well

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks.

 

[Apeironaxim]

One of the problems with the doppelgangers is that they don't have the health of Pleiades, so it's a bit hard to judge them taking spells and apply it to the actual Pleiades, especially since they were also buffed significantly by Aureole. From PA's character sheet, we can see doppelgangers don't copy Health, Mana, or Special

 

[Apeironaxim]

With the 9-B feat, it still needs to be approved from what I can see, so getting a couple Calc members to look at it would be nice

I don't think there's any problems with it, but it still needs to be approved

 

[Moritzva]

The point about low-tiers seems fair.

I still want to know what the actual suggestions for mid-tiers and high-tiers and who they scale to should be.