OPM - problems with the FTL calc

[DavidTPPM]

I'll try to make this simple. (I always write this at the start of a CRT just for it to never end up being simple )
The calc in question: Atomic Samurai Intercepts a Laser

Problem #1: Atomic Samurais true movement​

The calc assumes AS did a full 180° slice in the mentioned timeframe. The issue is that the beam he was cutting is lower than the middle of the slice. This means that AS only needed to move less than half as fast as the calc suggests in the time frame used. Therefore using 90° would be far more accurate which would drop the results at least by 50%.

Problem #2: Light Speed justifications​

For those unaware, G5 is considered to shoot light speed lasers because of it's superiority over G4. There's a single striking issue with this: We have no evidence this specific beam was a laser like G4s. The arguments are fairly simple:

G4 didn't actually shoot the lasers from the samurai form. It did so from its "True Form". G5 also has a "True Form" like this but this one has never even been shown to shoot lasers. The databook even specifically attributed G4s lasers to its True Form. This means that there is absolutely no reason to believe they are the same type of beam as they're different forms of different versions of the robot, and all the pro-light speed arguments for G4 don't apply to this G5 beam. To compile it:

• G5s beams are never stated to be lasers or light.
• G5s beams never show refraction like real light would.
• Are shot by a different version of the G bot.
• Are shot by the samurai form rather than the true form which is what originally shot lasers.
• Just because it's a better version of the robot doesn't mean that ALL of it's attacks are faster than ALL of the previous versions, nor does it mean it has all of the abilities that it's previous version had.

Conclusion:​

Not only is there an error in the calc itself, but the entire reasoning is shaky at best. Given how the feat would massively upscale Atomic Samurai and a ton of characters (by like hundreds if not thousands of times), the evidence for the beam being light speed should need to be a LOT stronger.

Staff agreement: Qawsedf234, Damage3245

 

[Shadow_x007x]

I agree with Problem #1, a 90° movement is enough to cause him to slice the beam apart.

I'll wait to see other people's opinions on Problem #2.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Seems logical and I agree, but shouldn't this be in the calc group discussion, instead of a CRT thread?

 

[DavidTPPM]

Seems logical and I agree, but shouldn't this be in the calc group discussion, instead of a CRT thread?

I'm not really sure. Technically it's a content revision thread about a calc so both fit

 

[DavidTPPM]

Bump

 

[Minos_the_Judge]

Absolutely agree. And to be honest, FTL Atomic Samurai feels like щutlier. In OPM, it hardly seems possible for characters of his tier to have that kind of speed, given that Boros needs an aura to move near the speed of light without burning up in the atmosphere.

 

[Engine]

Disagree for both.
I see that the air blade arc was calculated but his swing is beyond that angle so it's fine.
Machine gods only use lasers as their ranged attack no other weaponry mentioned on their arsenal that they're using energy based beams.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Disagree for both.
I see that the air blade arc was calculated but his swing is beyond that angle so it's fine.

His swing is 180° but the issue is that he didn't need to move the whole 180° in the time frame the calc uses. He only needed to move 90° and then could have moved the rest afterwards.

The Naruto light fang calc was downgraded from over 2c to barely 1c few weeks ago for this exact reason.

Machine gods only use lasers as their ranged attack no other weaponry mentioned on their arsenal that they're using energy based beams.

That's just circular reasoning at best. We don't have any evidence he "only used lasers" for ranged attacks. Hell the samurai form used no other ranged attacks to begin with as G4

 

[Stefano4444]

I can't speak about Problem #1, but i have some perplexity about this:

Just because it's a better version of the robot doesn't mean that ALL of it's attacks are faster than ALL of the previous versions, nor does it mean it has all of the abilities that it's previous version had.

I don't see how a supposed upgraded version of G4 would lack the ability of fire the same type of lasers.

Its not like G5 physical body and general moveset are so vastly different that G4 that they can be compared.

Especially when G5's moveset its clearly based on G4, with his Base Form rely at close combat while his True Form's body literally looks the same as G4.

If we currently accept G4's energy beams as legit lasers/light speed attacks, then i really don't see valid reason to not apply the same justifications to G5.

Given how the feat would massively upscale Atomic Samurai and a ton of characters (by like hundreds if not thousands of times)

There is no other character that use this feat to scale their speed, it doesn't even scale to Atomic Samurai's regular speed and it count only as Attack Speed.

All other FTL characters in the verse its based on other scaling.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I can't speech about Problem #1, but i have some perplexity about this:

I don't see how a supposed upgraded version of G4 would lack the ability of fire the same type of lasers, is not like G5 physical body and general moveset are so vastly different that G4 that they can be compared.

Well first of all, it doesn't need to lack the ability completely. G4 didn't have the lasers in the samurai form either.
Second of all the lasers were pretty inefficient when G4 fought Genos, so them getting replaced by a more powerful beam would makes sense. Especially when you notice how thin the G4 lasers were and how thick the G5 blast is.

The databook listed in the thread where G5s blast was accepted as light speed to begin with actually attributes the lasers SPECIFICALLY to the true form and not the samurai form

Especially when G5's moveset its clearly based on G4, with his Base Form rely at close combat with his sword style while his True Form rely more on his range attacks.

And the beam in the calc comes from the samurai form not the true form.

If we currently accept G4's energy beams as legit lasers/light speed attacks, then i really don't see valid reason to not apply the same justifications to G5.

Actually we don't accept G4 as true light to begin with. It was originally rejected and in the last thread (listed in my OP) 2 staff members rejected it again.

And we don't need a "valid reason to NOT" apply the same justification. We need a valid reason TO apply the same justification which is what's lacking.

There is no other character that use this feat to scale their speed, it doesn't even scale to Atomic Samurai's regular speed and it count only as Attack Speed.

AS, Golden Sperm, and Flashy flash all scale off of this feat. Which also means all characters who scale to them in the future will be scaled to the feat (such as Sonic).
Also people like Bang should scale to him but their profiles are outdated (Bangs profile literally scales him based on AS calling him fast but somehow he's scaled thousands of times below AS lol).

 

[Engine]

Only Golden S is scaled to it but that is questionable as well.
The calc was accepted so please refer to the thread related to it.

 

[Stefano4444]

Second of all the lasers were pretty inefficient when G4 fought Genos, so them getting replaced by a more powerful beam would makes sense. Especially when you notice how thin the G4 lasers were and how thick the G5 blast is.

But how it would imply that those beams are not lasers, or that they are slower than the previous ones?

Actually we don't accept G4 as true light to begin with. It was originally rejected and in the last thread (listed in my OP) 2 staff members rejected it again.

Could have go with that from the beginning as main evidence, without G4 be accepted as having SoL Attack Speed then there is nothing left that can be used for G5.

 

[DavidTPPM]

But how it would imply that those beams are not lasers, or that they are slower than the previous ones?

Again, you first need evidence for the positive before you start needing evidence for the negative. As far as we know that blast could be completely unrelated to the lasers of G4s true form.

Could have go with that from the beginning as main evidence, without G4 be accepted as having SoL Attack Speed then there is nothing left that can be used for G5.

I mean I feel the fact that they're completely different blasts is the better argument. Since we do need evidence they're the same to scale them to each other. After we conclude whether they're the same or not we can focus on whether G4s were light speed to begin with

Only Golden S is scaled to it but that is questionable as well.

No. That's just objectively wrong. The current speed scaling is
Flashy ~ platinum > golden > AS attack speed.
In the recent chapters it was revealed Sonic is relative to Flashy so he would also scale.
Bang was also keeping up with and outspeeding Garou a single scene before he completely blitzed PS so he should also scale.
As it is now, at least 5 characters should/will scale from this.

The calc was accepted so please refer to the thread related to it.

I am…? The thread is listed in the OP and I addressed points from it as well as referenced databooks it uses.

 

[57Dev]

I thought G4's lasers were not accepted as light speed anyway.

 

[MrTayman616]

the situation of the laser should be fine, not only they are the same type of robot but the energy signature of them is also the same stated by genos. also the appearence shows it to be light as well. murata always (mostly) shows those effects clearly.

 

[DavidTPPM]

the situation of the laser should be fine, not only they are the same type of robot but the energy signature of them is also the same stated by genos. also the appearence shows it to be light as well. murata always (mostly) shows those effects clearly.

You just straight up ignored all the arguments against the calc…

 

[MrTayman616]

You just straight up ignored all the arguments against the calc…

no, i understand the topic, without considering the statements of G4, there'd be nearly nothing to claim it's light except the appearence.

i don't think True form matters in this case, considering the core of energy is still the same, and the lasers comes from it.

 

[DavidTPPM]

no, i understand the topic, without considering the statements of G4, there'd be nearly nothing to claim it's light except the appearence.

i don't think True form matters in this case, considering the core of energy is still the same, and the lasers comes from it.

The robot is different (G5, not G4).
The form is different (Samurai form while the lasers were specifically true form abilities).
The G5 samurais beam has no statements about being a laser and no feats of behaving like a laser.

The entire argument for it being the same is based around a very vague association. It's essentially like saying that since current age pistols are more advanced guns than cannons 300 years ago, then they must hit with more force as well.

 

[Raiden38]

I'll try to make this simple. (I always write this at the start of a CRT just for it to never end up being simple )
The calc in question: Atomic Samurai Intercepts a Laser

Problem #1: Atomic Samurais true movement​

The calc assumes AS did a full 180° slice in the mentioned timeframe. The issue is that the beam he was cutting is lower than the middle of the slice. This means that AS only needed to move less than half as fast as the calc suggests in the time frame used. Therefore using 90° would be far more accurate which would drop the results at least by 50%.

Problem #2: Light Speed justifications​

For those unaware, G5 is considered to shoot light speed lasers because of it's superiority over G4. There's a single striking issue with this: We have no evidence this specific beam was a laser like G4s. The arguments are fairly simple:

G4 didn't actually shoot the lasers from the samurai form. It did so from its "True Form". G5 also has a "True Form" like this but this one has never even been shown to shoot lasers. The databook even specifically attributed G4s lasers to its True Form. This means that there is absolutely no reason to believe they are the same type of beam as they're different forms of different versions of the robot, and all the pro-light speed arguments for G4 don't apply to this G5 beam. To compile it:

• G5s beams are never stated to be lasers or light.
• G5s beams never show refraction like real light would.
• Are shot by a different version of the G bot.
• Are shot by the samurai form rather than the true form which is what originally shot lasers.
• Just because it's a better version of the robot doesn't mean that ALL of it's attacks are faster than ALL of the previous versions, nor does it mean it has all of the abilities that it's previous version had.

Conclusion:​

Not only is there an error in the calc itself, but the entire reasoning is shaky at best. Given how the feat would massively upscale Atomic Samurai and a ton of characters (by like hundreds if not thousands of times), the evidence for the beam being light speed should need to be a LOT stronger.

Disagree FRA

 

[Qawsedf234]

While the first one I'm not to sure on, since that's more a calc thing. The assumption that G5's laser being lightspeed is a good point. G4 was rejected for having to many issues and the assumption is that G5 was the same but without the anti-feats, which an assumption without evidence.

So for now you can put me in favor of not assuming G5 fires a SoL beam.

 

[Damage3245]

While the first one I'm not to sure on, since that's more a calc thing. The assumption that G5's laser being lightspeed is a good point. G4 was rejected for having to many issues and the assumption is that G5 was the same but without the anti-feats, which an assumption without evidence.

So for now you can put me in favor of not assuming G5 fires a SoL beam.

I agree.

 

[PatatesR]

I agree

 

[Engine]

VSB also runs on assumption. It assumed it's a laser cause there is no other option rather than giving a headcanon.
So only staff members are counted? Not gonna argue again on this rotten place.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

So only staff members are counted? Not gonna argue again on this rotten place.

Did you read the rules? Only staff actually have decision power. While everyone can vote, only staff votes count, meaning only thread moderators, admins, super mods and bureaucrat's votes count toward the actual "votes" for the CRT, the exception is for the calc group, where they also have voting rights for calculations.

 

[DavidTPPM]

VSB also runs on assumption.

There is a difference between straight up assumptions and the most logical conclusions.

It assumed it's a laser cause there is no other option rather than giving a headcanon.

But there are other options. The options being "it's just an energy blast" and "we don't know what kind of blast it is".

So only staff members are counted? Not gonna argue again on this rotten place.

Well it depends. For the actual changes themselves only staff member votes are counted. For vs battle threads any votes are counted.
I personally usually try to also list the votes of regular people in my CRTs (like here, here, here, and here), but I'm kinda busy with other stuff rn so I didn't really have time to do so here.

 

[Qawsedf234]

It assumed it's a laser cause there is no other option rather than giving a headcanon.

Well, the default is that it's an energy beam rather than head-canon. It being a laser is saying that this energy beams behaves like a particle beam or laser-laser and should have a SoL speed rating. It's why you have to prove it's a laser but not prove it's an energy beam, since the latter is telling default view point.

 

[MrTayman616]

Well, the default is that it's an energy beam rather than head-canon. It being a laser is saying that this energy beams behaves like a particle beam or laser-laser and should have a SoL speed rating. It's why you have to prove it's a laser but not prove it's an energy beam, since the latter is telling default view point.

"laser being bend" is it the case for everytime with no exception? no matter the amount of thing that implies it or like superior technology and etc.

 

[Qawsedf234]

"laser being bend" is it the case for everytime with no exception? no matter the amount of thing that implies it or like superior technology and etc.

Afaik there's no automatic disqualifications. It's based on the amount of evidence and counter evidence along with consistency of energy attack being SoL.

Bending is explicitly unrealistic and is counter evidence.

 

[DavidTPPM]

"laser being bend" is it the case for everytime with no exception? no matter the amount of thing that implies it or like superior technology and etc.

The light bending isn't an instant defeater nor is it an important point in this thread

 

[MrTayman616]

The light bending isn't an instant defeater nor is it an important point in this thread

sry you're right. i was saying it for g4.

 

[DavidTPPM]

sry you're right. i was saying it for g4.

Here's a fun thing. If we assume G4s TF beams aren't the same as G5z SF beams then the counter argument related to G5 are dropped fork G4 and it's laser could potentially be light speed.
But there's no feat with G4 that couldn't just be Genos aim dodging so it wouldn't really be useful

 

[MrTayman616]

Here's a fun thing. If we assume G4s TF beams aren't the same as G5z SF beams then the counter argument related to G5 are dropped fork G4 and it's laser could potentially be light speed.
But there's no feat with G4 that couldn't just be Genos aim dodging so it wouldn't really be useful

genos has attained the parts of g4 and applied those lasers to himself, there might be feats for it

 

[MrTayman616]

Afaik there's no automatic disqualifications. It's based on the amount of evidence and counter evidence along with consistency of energy attack being SoL.

Bending is explicitly unrealistic and is counter evidence.

yeah but in this case, the laser he uses is called diffused laser to begin with, shows that it comes from superior technology while still being a laser. or it requires more?

 

[Kachon123]

I'll hold my thoughts on issue #1 for right now.

I disagree with issue #2. Genos stated that the energy signature that he senses when G5 shot his laser was the same as G4's. This is important because we know that G4's lasers are formed by it concentrating its energy to one spot and shooting it out. G5's lasers coming from its Samurai Form is not a defeater, as that simply means that he can now converge his energy and shoot it out while not needing to be in his True Form.

G5's lasers do not need to be directly stated to be made of light, as they are stated by Genos to have the same energy has G4's, with the latter's energy being light.

Since G5's lasers are made of light, refract in a new material, travel in a straight line, and has its origin at a realistic source.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I'll hold my thoughts on issue #1 for right now.

I disagree with issue #2. Genos stated that the energy signature that he senses when G5 shot his laser was the same as G4's. This is important because we know that G4's lasers are formed by it concentrating its energy to one spot and shooting it out.

So it's G4s energy and not actual light…? And why would the true form of G5 having the same energy signature as the true form of G4 even remotely imply the samurai form of G5 has the laser tech of G4? That has sounds like a huge non sequitor.

G5's lasers coming from its Samurai Form is not a defeater, as that simply means that he can now converge his energy and shoot it out while not needing to be in his True Form.

Except it's never even implied that it's the lasers coming out of G5s samurai form. It's just some energy blast.

G5's lasers do not need to be directly stated to be made of light, as they are stated by Genos to have the same energy has G4's, with the latter's energy being light.

No that's not true. G5s TRUE FORM is stated to have the same energy SIGNATURE as G4. Never does Genos compare the energy of the beams or anything similar to that.

And even if it did, it wouldn't mean the energy is still being shot as lasers.

Since G5's lasers are made of light, refract in a new material, travel in a straight line, and has its origin at a realistic source.

No. G5s unknown beams travel in a straight line and that's it. They're never shown to refract like G4s true forms lasers, are never called lasers, and don't display any laser-specific behavior.

 

[Kachon123]

So it's G4s energy and not actual light…? And why would the true form of G5 having the same energy signature as the true form of G4 even remotely imply the samurai form of G5 has the laser tech of G4? That has sounds like a huge non sequitor.

If G4's Energy concentrated = Lasers = Made of Light

and G5's Energy = G4's Energy

then G5's Energy's concentrated = Lasers = Made of Light

Except it's never even implied that it's the lasers coming out of G5s samurai form. It's just some energy blast.

Are you ignoring the steam rising out of his eyes afterwards? It's clear that it came from the samurai form. Either read the manga or stop making unsubstantiated claims.

No that's not true. G5s TRUE FORM is stated to have the same energy SIGNATURE as G4. Never does Genos compare the energy of the beams or anything similar to that.

And even if it did, it wouldn't mean the energy is still being shot as lasers.

Genos sensed the energy signature from G5 and came rushing over. Unless Genos can teleport, how did he sense the energy of G5's true form and immediately appear at the scene a page later?

Read above.

No. G5s unknown beams travel in a straight line and that's it. They're never shown to refract like G4s true forms lasers, are never called lasers, and don't display any laser-specific behavior.

Except it's the same exact energy as G4's as stated by Genos, meaning that they're made of light as well.

 

[DavidTPPM]

If G4's Energy concentrated = Lasers = Made of Light

and G5's Energy = G4's Energy

then G5's Energy's concentrated = Lasers = Made of Light

No? G4s energy ≠ light. G4 can shoot its energy as light. Doesn't mean it's energy is literally light nor does it mean it can't be used for different forms of attacks.

Are you ignoring the steam rising out of his eyes afterwards? It's clear that it came from the samurai form. Either read the manga or stop making unsubstantiated claims.

I'm not saying the blast isn't coming out of G5s samurai form. I'm saying there's no difference the blast coming from the samurai form is the laser.

Genos sensed the energy signature from G5 and came rushing over. Unless Genos can teleport, how did he sense the energy of G5's true form and immediately appear at the scene a page later?

Why would the energy signature be concealed while it's in the samurai form? And Genos can fly at like MHS+ speeds so it's pretty much as if he could teleport across distances that aren't too long.

Except it's the same exact energy as G4's as stated by Genos, meaning that they're made of light as well.

It being the same energy ≠ it being the same beam.
Genos detected the same energy signature from the true form. Not even from the beam it shot. There's literally 0 evidence the G5 samurai beam is even remotely similar to the G4 true form lasers.

Long story short, not only is the G4 light speed laser stuff rejected but the G5 samurai beam doesn't even have the justification that G4s true form did.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Ironman can also use the energy in his suit to shoot lasers but we don't automatically scale his repulsor beams to light speed just for using the same speed

 

[Recon1511]

That's a shitty example, Iron Man laser beams can be SoL and his movement speed be inferior. Just like G4 and G5.

 

[DavidTPPM]

That's a shitty example, Iron Man laser beams can be SoL and his movement speed be inferior. Just like G4 and G5.

I'm not referring to his movement speed. We know IM has lasers (such as the ones in IM2 where he cut up that group of robots in half) but that doesn't mean every energy blast (like repulsor blasts) is instantly as fast as those lasers.
They're simple 2 different weapons on the same robot/robo armor