One punch man: Ninjas Speed revision and Key Additions

[karo_senpaii]

He managed to guard against the Flashy kick. But going by Blast he has a maximum acceleration Flashy Kick and Sonic was later floored by his speed and the 3D movement stuff as well.

I don't think full scaling is really backed by the narrative.

You forget flash is not just ftl but at least ftl. So sonic can still be ftl and slower. I'm not saying he isn't slower than flasy but even without flashy ultimate moves he is already ftl. So for sonic to be able to react and block his kick like that seems pretty good for me.

And sonic wasn't floored by the 3d movement, he was actually blocking them as well as flashy and was mocking him even. It wasn't until flashy completely overwhelmed them he was then fazed.

All in all while sonic would still be slower , he'd still be ftl. He's definitely superior at the Least to hell Fire and blaze

 

[Recon1511]

Well, Hellfire Flame and Gale Wind lost their monster forms so they clearly aren't as fast as before and the Heavenly Ninja Party got negged so badly I don't even believe any of them is Dragon.

The most generous we can be with Sonic here is that he downscales from a semi-serious Flashy Flash and that's not really measurable.

 

[Qawsedf234]

MHS+, At most FTL for Sonic is fine I guess.

But I don't see straight up FTL.

 

[Recon1511]

MHS+, At most FTL for Sonic is fine I guess.

But I don't see straight up FTL.

It's just MHS, the MHS+ calc is just supposed to scale to Tatsumaki and Genos, speaking of him, he did have a short scuffle with Flashy Flash

 

[Qawsedf234]

It's just MHS, the MHS+ calc is just supposed to scale to Tatsumaki and Genos, speaking of him, he did have a short scuffle with Flashy Flash

The OP is suggesting they should scale to AS's MHS+ calc I think. Which is where the rating would come from.

 

[Recon1511]

The OP is suggesting they should scale to AS's MHS+ calc I think. Which is where the rating would come from.

Well but that's for their monster forms, Gale Wind and Hellfire Flame lost their monsterization so their human forms (and therefore Sonic and the rest of the HNP) wouldn't scale.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Well but that's for their monster forms, Gale Wind and Hellfire Flame lost their monsterization so their human forms (and therefore Sonic and the rest of the HNP) wouldn't scale.

Sonic would still scale a bit to Flashy. Hence the at most ftl. A mhs sonic is not defending one of flash ultimate moves

 

[Recon1511]

Sonic would still scale a bit to Flashy. Hence the at most ftl. A mhs sonic is not defending one of flash ultimate moves

Ehhh, its whatever really. Flashy Flash was obviously holding back a lot even while using Flash Kicks there so again, Sonic would scale to a semi-serious Flashy Flash and little else.

 

[Kachon123]

I mean, a casual Flashy Flash could still move at least as fast as Atomic Samurai, so there's that still.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Yeah I'm pretty against anyone scaling to Sonic. Gale and Hellfire expressed shock over far simpler three dimensional movement and Flashy schooled them so hard even Sonic was surprised. Barring thr Ninja leader I don't think any of then should scale to Flashy Flash.

Fundamental flaw: This has nothing to do with the CRT
It's considered an extremely difficult technique, so it doesn't need to be said that this is a explicit skill feat.
Flashy is consistently noted as being so superior to other ninjas specifically because of his skill
this was stated by the ninja duo, sonic, and flashy himself on more than one occasion, so this has absolutely no business being mentioned in the first place.

they've proven multiple times to have a bad understanding of what Flashy Flash can do.

Except this is either just untrue or badly out of context.
relevant scenes include
1. Them not knowing how strong flashy is on their first encounter, when it was literally impossible to know how strong/fast he was when they had no prior knowledge on him, as well as him having held back until they unleashed their sealed monster form speed
2. Them challenging Flashy, with the perception of his power and speed from when they fought in the monster association, to then be defeated, immediately acknowledging he's superior to them, and then stating that he got stronger, which we have direct confirmation of this being the case.

so by "proving multiple times to have a bad understanding of what Flashy can do" what you really mean is "they didn't know information that was impossible to know, then proceed to lose to an amped flashy do to information that they also didn't know" and what does that prove exactly? Absolutely nothing relevant, because we're not scaling them to current flashy, we're scaling them above their perception of Flashy from the MA arc, whose full power they got a good estimation of in the last phase of the battle, as is being accepted in this CRT already.

For Sonic I also don't see him full scaling to Flashy. Blocking a single kick and then being shocked by his serious speed isn't a good scaling chain in my view.

Forcing Flashy Flash to use an ultimate technique, then reacting to said ultimate technique, then getting shocked at the skill that is consistently stated by literally everyone to be on another level.
That is not how anti feats work.

He managed to guard against the Flashy kick. But going by Blast he has a maximum acceleration Flashy Kick and Sonic was later floored by his speed and the 3D movement stuff as well.

The "maximum speed" thing is just to indicate that he was going all out from the very beginning
but since he didn't say "maximum speed: flashy fist" when using it against Saitama and Platinum sperm, I guess that means he was suppressed against them too. (he was not)
"Ultimate technique" and "Maximum speed" are interchangeable, that maximum speed thing was used once and never used before that or after, so it means nothing.
In terms of pure raw speed and AP, he is comparable, but slightly inferior to Flashy
Flashy has skill on another tier, which is why he was much more dominant in the last 2 fights, but that is it.
And just to get an idea of how much this skill thing is hammered in.

no.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

And lastly
Yes, 2 weeks or whatever is enough time to go from > pre MA raid sonic to being comparable to MA raid Flashy
why? Because Sonic went from weaker than the human ninja duo to likely stronger than MA raid Flashy in almost the exact same amount of time.
So the time argument just doesn't work for these ninjas at all.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Fundamental flaw: This has nothing to do with the CRT

It does, since you're proposing a post-MA key bases entirely on a confidence scaling.

we're scaling them above their perception of Flashy from the MA arc, whose full power they got a good estimation of in the last phase of the battle, as is being accepted in this CRT already.

They pressed him, but he was still holding back the entire time to make a double kill. In the rematch he immediately hit them with the same move and they couldn't do anything but substitute and run away. Their estimation was bad.

y? Because Sonic went from weaker than the human ninja duo to likely stronger than MA raid Flashy in almost the exact same amount of time.

We have no indication that Sonic is stronger than MA Arc Flash. Where are you getting that from?

 

[ZillertheBucko]

It does, since you're proposing a post-MA key bases entirely on a confidence scaling.

No, I will say this again, this crt has absolutely nothing to do in any way with the skill feat that you brought up.

They pressed him, but he was still holding back the entire time to make a double kill. In the rematch he immediately hit them with the same move and they couldn't do anything but substitute and run away. Their estimation was bad.

In the rematch he got stronger, so this is just completely ignoring the argument. Them losing to an amped flashy because they were confident in taking on an unamped flashy is not an anti feat.

We have no indication that Sonic is stronger than MA Arc Flash. Where are you getting that from?

The fact that the current amped Flashy says he was forced to use an ultimate technique and then reacted to and defended against an ultimate technique is a pretty clear indication that his raw stats are comparable, even if slightly inferior, meanwhile every single anti feat you’re bringing up is an extremely blatant example of skill and only skill.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

No, I will say this again, this crt has absolutely nothing to do in any way with the skill feat that you brought up.

In the rematch he got stronger, so this is just completely ignoring the argument. Them losing to an amped flashy because they were confident in taking on an unamped flashy is not an anti feat.

The fact that the current amped Flashy says he was forced to use an ultimate technique and then reacted to and defended against an ultimate technique is a pretty clear indication that his raw stats are comparable, even if slightly inferior, meanwhile every single anti feat you’re bringing up is an extremely blatant example of skill and only skill.

What makes things worse is that Flashy himself, in that scene where you claimed “used his serious speed” very directly attributed that feat to “combat experience” rather than him even using more speed.

 

[Qawsedf234]

No, I will say this again, this crt has absolutely nothing to do in any way with the skill feat that you brought up.

It does, because it's speed and skill that makes Ninjas strong. Sonic even brought up speed translating to strength.

In the rematch he got stronger, so this is just completely ignoring the argument. Them losing to an amped flashy because they were confident in taking on an unamped flashy is not an anti feat.

They directly say only the elite can do three dimensional attack and they don't include themselves as elites meaning they don't believe they can do something a weaker Flashy did in a more impressive manner.

What makes things worse is that Flashy himself, in that scene where you claimed “used his serious speed” very directly attributed that feat to “combat experience” rather than him even using more speed.

This is the worst case here, because Flashy directly said he didn't train he just has experience fighting people

 

[ZillertheBucko]

It does, because it's speed and skill that makes Ninjas strong. Sonic even brought up speed translating to strength.

All this scan means is that Flashy is still faster than him, which we already knew and I never denied.

They directly say only the elite can do three dimensional attack and they don't include themselves as elites meaning they don't believe they can do something a weaker Flashy did in a more impressive manner.

And you are completely ignoring the fact that “elite” in this context very obviously means skill, because the damn panel you sent speaks about it being difficult, and then Flashy directly comments about it being ineffective tactic.
What in god’s name are you reading, there is literally nothing you’ve sent that doesn’t suggest it being skill here.

This is the worst case here, because Flashy directly said he didn't train he just has experience fighting people

And this is the most objectively false thing you’ve said.
We know flashy trains, all this scan means is that the specific trick he just did was a result of his combat experience rather than his training.
There is absolutely no way to argue that Flashy doesn’t train, that’s an egregious twisting of what his words mean there.

 

[karo_senpaii]

They directly say only the elite can do three dimensional attack and they don't include themselves as elites meaning they don't believe they can do something a weaker Flashy did in a more impressive manner.

Okay this part is clearly about skill and not speed. Them being unable to do it is to show their lack of skill compared to Flashy and not speed.

Even flashy himself says "you don't need the ninja village to teach you stuff like this, you can use your own head and develop them yourself ".
He was clearly reffering to skill.

Ehhh, its whatever really. Flashy Flash was obviously holding back a lot even while using Flash Kicks there so again, Sonic would scale to a semi-serious Flashy Flash and little else.

A casual flashy is still ftl tbh so it doesn't matter. More so he is using an ultimate technique.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Fundamental flaw: This has nothing to do with the CRT
It's considered an extremely difficult technique, so it doesn't need to be said that this is a explicit skill feat.
Flashy is consistently noted as being so superior to other ninjas specifically because of his skill
this was stated by the ninja duo, sonic, and flashy himself on more than one occasion, so this has absolutely no business being mentioned in the first place.

Except this is either just untrue or badly out of context.
relevant scenes include
1. Them not knowing how strong flashy is on their first encounter, when it was literally impossible to know how strong/fast he was when they had no prior knowledge on him, as well as him having held back until they unleashed their sealed monster form speed
2. Them challenging Flashy, with the perception of his power and speed from when they fought in the monster association, to then be defeated, immediately acknowledging he's superior to them, and then stating that he got stronger, which we have direct confirmation of this being the case.

so by "proving multiple times to have a bad understanding of what Flashy can do" what you really mean is "they didn't know information that was impossible to know, then proceed to lose to an amped flashy do to information that they also didn't know" and what does that prove exactly? Absolutely nothing relevant, because we're not scaling them to current flashy, we're scaling them above their perception of Flashy from the MA arc, whose full power they got a good estimation of in the last phase of the battle, as is being accepted in this CRT already.

Forcing Flashy Flash to use an ultimate technique, then reacting to said ultimate technique, then getting shocked at the skill that is consistently stated by literally everyone to be on another level.
That is not how anti feats work.

The "maximum speed" thing is just to indicate that he was going all out from the very beginning
but since he didn't say "maximum speed: flashy fist" when using it against Saitama and Platinum sperm, I guess that means he was suppressed against them too. (he was not)
"Ultimate technique" and "Maximum speed" are interchangeable, that maximum speed thing was used once and never used before that or after, so it means nothing.
In terms of pure raw speed and AP, he is comparable, but slightly inferior to Flashy
Flashy has skill on another tier, which is why he was much more dominant in the last 2 fights, but that is it.
And just to get an idea of how much this skill thing is hammered in.

no.

And lastly
Yes, 2 weeks or whatever is enough time to go from > pre MA raid sonic to being comparable to MA raid Flashy
why? Because Sonic went from weaker than the human ninja duo to likely stronger than MA raid Flashy in almost the exact same amount of time.
So the time argument just doesn't work for these ninjas at all.

No, I will say this again, this crt has absolutely nothing to do in any way with the skill feat that you brought up.

In the rematch he got stronger, so this is just completely ignoring the argument. Them losing to an amped flashy because they were confident in taking on an unamped flashy is not an anti feat.

The fact that the current amped Flashy says he was forced to use an ultimate technique and then reacted to and defended against an ultimate technique is a pretty clear indication that his raw stats are comparable, even if slightly inferior, meanwhile every single anti feat you’re bringing up is an extremely blatant example of skill and only skill.

What makes things worse is that Flashy himself, in that scene where you claimed “used his serious speed” very directly attributed that feat to “combat experience” rather than him even using more speed.

All this scan means is that Flashy is still faster than him, which we already knew and I never denied.

And you are completely ignoring the fact that “elite” in this context very obviously means skill, because the damn panel you sent speaks about it being difficult, and then Flashy directly comments about it being ineffective tactic.
What in god’s name are you reading, there is literally nothing you’ve sent that doesn’t suggest it being skill here.

And this is the most objectively false thing you’ve said.
We know flashy trains, all this scan means is that the specific trick he just did was a result of his combat experience rather than his training.
There is absolutely no way to argue that Flashy doesn’t train, that’s an egregious twisting of what his words mean there.

bump

 

[Qawsedf234]

bump

You'll probably have to directly ask other mods to comment going by how other OPM threads usually go turnout wise.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

My threads just need more rizz honestly

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Rizz bump

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Bump

 

[Kachon123]

What's left to be handled here?

 

[ZillertheBucko]

debating about the ninja duo since enough time has passed to start the discussion about them

 

[Kachon123]

debating about the ninja duo since enough time has passed to start the discussion about them

What's in contention currently about them?

 

[ZillertheBucko]

What's in contention currently about them?

Confidence scaling to each ninja being relative to MA arc flashy, then scaling flashy to be a blitz above his old self.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

bump

 

[Nierre]

bumping for interest

 

[Qawsedf234]

The entire arc is being redone so we have to wait on that.

 

[Recon1511]

Yeah whole ass arc getting redrawn lmao

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

The entire arc is being redone so we have to wait on that.

Seriously?

 

[Nierre]

wtf

 

[Recon1511]

Seriously?

Yup, chapters 195 to 202 (fan TL numbering) are getting redrawn.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Someone should probably remake this thread with all the same proposals in the OP
but I kinda stopped caring about vsb so idk if I'm gonna be the one to do it

 

[Golden_Void]

Well the redraws clipped point 4 lol.

 

[Golden_Void]

"Gale and Hellfire weren't really blitzed"

I would argue that getting kicked so hard you cough up blood, then in the very next instance putting your feet in two different people's chest so fast they can't defend themselves, counts as a blitz. As we see below, FF moved so fast the shockwaves from the kicks are still visible on their bodies, as well as the shock from his footstep.

FF also says "what's the point of all that speed if your brain can't keep up" which is evidence of their combat speed being higher than their reaction speed.

Both are blatantly stated as being ultimate techniques, so it's most likely just his fastest moves

Flash wasn't stated to use any ultimate move in his fight against Garou or PS, which would narratively imply any fight where he did use it was a qualitatively harder fight, which we know isn't true.

We also have to remember PS and Garou accelerated to their max calc value over their given timeframe, meaning we have no clue how fast they were when they fought Flash. But Flash didn't get straight-up clapped like these two did, he was just getting bullied. I can agree with at most FTL in their monster forms.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Yap

 

[Golden_Void]

Yap