- 365
- 339
I agree with 1 ms being used, not really understanding the major problem with using that timeframe
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
One-Punch Man: God Tier Speed Upgrade
- Thread starter Kachon123
- Start date
-
- Tags
- garou one-punch man saitama
- Status
- 31,588
- 28,048
Not forgotten about btw, just been away from PC all day. Will be back and should be able to post in a few hours.
- 31,588
- 28,048
@Kachon123 Okay, so at first glance I can understand the logic of the proposal being "Garou was able to react to and fight Platinum Sperm in a millisecond but he was unable to react to and fight Saitama, so therefore Saiatama punching him repeatedly across Io had to take place in a millisecond [or less]".
But there are two issues with this in my viiew;
1) Reaction time is not the only factor for why a person would be unable to react to a given event.
2) The lack of reaction from Garou to the multiple punches from Saitama should not be judged as the entire process being faster than Garou's reaction speed; instead only each punch - which is its own distinct event - could be taken as faster than Garou's reaction speed.
To elaborate on what I mean for the first point; this is what happened to Garou after the first punch from Saitama. He is sent cartwheeling and bouncing off of debris uncontrollably. This is far from an ideal condition to be able to react to and counter Saitama's follow-up punch. Imagine being a boxer and somebody sucker-punches you in the face... While you're still recovering from that punch, you're probably going to be open to being hit again, and again, etc. It doesn't matter if Garou was shown to fight Platinum Sperm in a millisecond earlier - at that time he wasn't being ragdolled through the air.
For the second point, I think it should be clear that for Garou to be overwhelmed by Saitama's punches and not in a position to fight back, it doesn't need to be the case that his reaction speed is slower than all of Saitama's punches together.... It just needs to be slower than each individual punch. Garou is hit before he can react, he is sent flying.... and then he is hit again before he can react to the second punch, he is sent flying, and then again and again, etc. If a trained boxer fights an ordinary guy and keeps hitting him over and over without giving him a chance to block... then it's not that the entire fight took place faster than the ordinary guy's reaction speed; it's that each individual blow is too fast for his reaction speed.
But there are two issues with this in my viiew;
1) Reaction time is not the only factor for why a person would be unable to react to a given event.
2) The lack of reaction from Garou to the multiple punches from Saitama should not be judged as the entire process being faster than Garou's reaction speed; instead only each punch - which is its own distinct event - could be taken as faster than Garou's reaction speed.
To elaborate on what I mean for the first point; this is what happened to Garou after the first punch from Saitama. He is sent cartwheeling and bouncing off of debris uncontrollably. This is far from an ideal condition to be able to react to and counter Saitama's follow-up punch. Imagine being a boxer and somebody sucker-punches you in the face... While you're still recovering from that punch, you're probably going to be open to being hit again, and again, etc. It doesn't matter if Garou was shown to fight Platinum Sperm in a millisecond earlier - at that time he wasn't being ragdolled through the air.
For the second point, I think it should be clear that for Garou to be overwhelmed by Saitama's punches and not in a position to fight back, it doesn't need to be the case that his reaction speed is slower than all of Saitama's punches together.... It just needs to be slower than each individual punch. Garou is hit before he can react, he is sent flying.... and then he is hit again before he can react to the second punch, he is sent flying, and then again and again, etc. If a trained boxer fights an ordinary guy and keeps hitting him over and over without giving him a chance to block... then it's not that the entire fight took place faster than the ordinary guy's reaction speed; it's that each individual blow is too fast for his reaction speed.
- 13,331
- 21,305
There’s currently a Calc Group Discussion thread on whether or not the use of such timeframes is considered calc stacking, which I believe should be settled first
- 13,903
- 5,405
It’s very obviously not calc stacking to use stated timeframes
- 13,331
- 21,305
See, I agree, but it seems like not everyone thinks that way - hence, a discussion needs to be had
Agnaa
VS Battles
Super Moderator
Administrator
Calculation Group
Translation Helper
Human Resources
Gold Supporter
- 15,677
- 14,055
Oh hey, I brought this up in the calc's comments. Didn't see you brought it up here, too. Other CGMs I asked over Discord seemed to agree with that, as well.
Agnaa
VS Battles
Super Moderator
Administrator
Calculation Group
Translation Helper
Human Resources
Gold Supporter
- 15,677
- 14,055
If you mean, like, giving a timeframe on the entire feat based around the idea that all of those impacts were made before the shockwaves could move too much, that seems a bit wack.
A lot of manga show simultaneous impacts like that just so that all of the impacts can be shown in a medium that doesn't have time built into it. When turned into an anime, they're generally presented as happening in sequence with enough of a gap between them for those visuals to fade.
I don't think it'd be good to calc every manga/comic that way, unless they have more explicit supporting context. Like, having a lot of panels showing the same impacts barely moving, while the characters move.
- 1,754
- 1,067
I agree with this
- 7,271
- 2,232
bump
- 998
- 462
Bump
- 998
- 462
This new calculation has a much better distance measurement than the old calculation. But we are still stuck with the time frame problem. I think we should find a point where we can agree. (Even though I know that even if I write anything now it won't help in any way.)
- 3,174
- 1,490
The 13 millisecond timeframe is more than just iffy. I don't see any evidence for 1 millisecond either. The calc page says this about assumed time frames
I have this idea tho. Is it possible to quantify how much did the SP² being vectored amp it's speed? If yes we could try to calc the SP², then divide it by that multiplier and get a usable speed value for Saitama and Garou.
So the standard would be to assume 1 second. Now I agree Saitama should be FAR faster and don't want the pixel calculations to go to waste, but I don't think there's a reliable way to get the time frame and assuming a shorter timeframe would be baseless. I mean at that point, anyone could assume every feat ever took 1 millisecond and we would have MFTL ratings for everyone.
I have this idea tho. Is it possible to quantify how much did the SP² being vectored amp it's speed? If yes we could try to calc the SP², then divide it by that multiplier and get a usable speed value for Saitama and Garou.
- 13,903
- 5,405
13 milliseconds is due to the direct parallel to the platinum light feat, as it would make the most sense for essentially the same feat to have the same timeframe.
- 13,903
- 5,405
Semi related but here’s the previous thread about the feat https://vsbattles.com/threads/cosmic-garou-saitama-mftl-change.145267/
- 3,174
- 1,490
I get that the feat is similar, but if the author intended it to happen in the same time frame he could have dropped it in the corner. He already did it twice before.
I'm not saying it's definitely completely unusable. I could see it being a supportive calc for a different calc. But basing the entire rating on such a massive assumption just doesn't feel right within the wikis rules.
OR, we simply use it as "Possibly MFTL+" due to it not being strong enough for a solid rating
- 31,588
- 28,048
I'm fine with using 1 second for it.
- 8,094
- 9,089
I think no calc member has had an idea for that yet. And even then it would probably only scale to attack/shockwave speed
- 31,588
- 28,048
Yeah, but we can't just pick an even smaller timeframe just for the sake of a faster speed than previous calcs.
- 3,174
- 1,490
I mean, same, but thats even slower than monster Garou so it would be unusable. So we either drop the upscale (would actually drop Saitama back to FTL because there would be no proper calc iirc).
That's unfortunate. But it shouldn't be impossible. If we can calculate how much weaker an attack gets if it's spread to a certain degree, it shouldn't be impossible to calculate how much faster an attack gets if it's concentrated more.
- 19,526
- 17,169
- Thread starter
- #67
Yeah, we see the impacts being seen as frozen/static while Garou and Saitama were darting around the moon, with these same impacts being highlighted at the end of the light structure. I believe that this makes it clear that the intent was to show that these impacts' speeds were being dwarfed by Saitama's.
Agnaa
VS Battles
Super Moderator
Administrator
Calculation Group
Translation Helper
Human Resources
Gold Supporter
- 15,677
- 14,055
While I have some other, more minor issues (it's contradictory for recent shockwaves to have the same size as older shockwaves, implying that it's more a visual flourish than trying to show the characters moving as the shockwaves slowly and realistically expand), the most important one is that the speed of shockwaves depends on the atmosphere. Io's atmosphere is very tiny and different from Earth's, so the shockwave speed is kinda unquantifiable.
- 479
- 318
Agree
- 998
- 462
Bump
Hellformer
He/Him- 1,635
- 1,274
So has this mftl+ speed upscale been accepted by 3 admins?
Agnaa
VS Battles
Super Moderator
Administrator
Calculation Group
Translation Helper
Human Resources
Gold Supporter
- 15,677
- 14,055
No. Plus, some CGMs have taken issue with it.
The blitz method has the issue of how, when striking with many different punches at different angles, the entire flurry doesn't need to blitz their perception, only one single punch does, so the current end is way above that method should realistically give.
The frozen shockwave method has the issue of how shockwaves travel at different speeds in different atmospheres. Since this was performed on the surface of a small moon, it's unrealistically difficult for us to quantify.
- 998
- 462
I'm a little curious. Can't we assume that the speed of those rocks was stationary while Saitama moved across the planet Io?
- 31,588
- 28,048
No. You'd need a statement for them being completely stationary.
- 998
- 462
Isn't the stillness of the shock wave enough to prove that the rocks are stationary?
- 31,588
- 28,048
On a near-planetary scale of a shot like that, you're not going to be able to see a small amount of movement. If you assume stationary but the rocks had actually moved a few meters since Saitama jumped off them, how are we supposed to disprove that?
- 998
- 462
It's difficult to prove. And I have no proof either.
- 7,271
- 2,232
Well FF's ninja fight objectively had them statuing rock explosions caused by their own movements to the point where said explosions were drawn exactly the same over several pages. Earth's gravity is ~9 times heavier than IO's, not accounting for the fact that the rocks were well above IO's surface meaning gravity would be decreasing with distance (granted it's almost irrelevant at these speeds.)
Garou and the rocks were flying upwards (depicted by Garou's obvious movement plus the artistic lines drawn) then suddenly had no evidence of upward movement in the very next panel when Saitama started to blitz him. Unless we believe that several pages of consistent upward MFTL ejection speed suddenly came to a halt or near-stop in one panel, the rocks would be fundamentally stationary from Saitama's viewpoint even aside from the fact that he was leaving after-images. Those explosions already scale above the moving rock speed.
The_Yellow_Topaz
She/Her- 1,477
- 1,512
Since Garou's field of vision does NOT cover Saitama's entire movement across the celestial body, it's objectively incorrect to use his reaction speed timeframe for the entire distance. Because Saitama DOESN'T have to blitz Garou for each movement he makes outside his field of vision.
- 31,588
- 28,048
Agreed, that was pretty much my argument earlier in the thread.
Unless there's anything new here, I believe this thread should be closed.
- Status
