One Piece Pre-Timeskip AP Scaling

[KingTempest]

Quick detour

Regarding Doriki scaling no longer applying here's some scaling chains i made (dunno if they're all entirely accurate since I skimmed through these three arcs to create the chain):

Eminiteable/Sandbox2

vsbattles.fandom.com

We know they're not linear since a marine fodder has a Doriki of 10 and 800 is Blueno.

We shouldn't use this as a justification.
Lucci says a Rokushiki master has the strength of 100 men.
A rokushiki master has a doriki of 500.
They're basically saying that the average person has a doriki of 5, while we know that an armed soldier has a doriki of 10.

We shouldn't use that as a counter. Oda genuinely thinks a regular person has a doriki of 5.

Also this

We also know that the difference between a 4000 Doriki and 800 Doriki isn't literally a 5 times difference since base Luffy clearly didn't have a 5 times difference between himself and Blueno.

Base Luffy doesn't have a Doriki of 4000, at all.

 

[KingTempest]

@Damage3245

We can't find every stat unless working in order, so we might have to hold Marineford until the end

 

[Eminiteable]

Base Luffy doesn't have a Doriki of 4000, at all.

Currently on his profile it's treated as such that base Luffy = base Lucci give or take, my point more so is that Luffy could fight on equal terms with someone with 4000 Doriki and someone with 800 Doriki (obviously not completely the same, but close enough that doesn't warrant the current stat difference)

 

[KingTempest]

Currently on his profile it's treated as such that base Luffy = base Lucci give or take, my point more so is that Luffy could fight on equal terms with someone with 4000 Doriki and someone with 800 Doriki (obviously not completely the same, but close enough that doesn't warrant the current stat difference)

This would be an extremely big issue then.

Luffy flat out said "I can't beat you as I am now" to Blueno. Why the hell is he scaling to Lucci who was sending him flying?

Sanji, who negged an amped Jabra, couldn't dent a no Tekkai Lucci. Lucci's Doriki is almost twice as high as base Jabra, even smaller gap w/ Amped Jabra, even SMALLER a Tekkai amped Jabra, and Base Lucci w/ no Tekkai blocked his kicks.

 

[Eminiteable]

This would be an extremely big issue then.

How would you suggest altering the scaling chain?

 

[KingTempest]

How would you suggest altering the scaling chain?

If we keep it linear (which I genuinely want).

Base Luffy ~ Blueno.

Gear Second Luffy ≥ Zoan Lucci >> Base Lucci.

Luffy made it as far as he did because of his blunt force resistance. Base Luffy should not scale to Base Lucci in any way shape or form.

 

[Eminiteable]

If we keep it linear (which I genuinely want).

Keeping it linear isn't an option, doesn't conform the the wiki rules on power levels.

Gear Second Luffy ≥ Zoan Lucci >> Base Lucci.

Would gear second Luffy be stronger than Zoan Lucci? I always took it as Lucci having the superior showings in the fight.

 

[KingTempest]

Would gear second Luffy be stronger than Zoan Lucci? I always took it as Lucci having the superior showings in the fight.

The fight started off with Gear Second Luffy nailing Lucci.
Luffy had astronomically better showings than Lucci.

Keeping it linear isn't an option, doesn't conform the the wiki rules on power levels.

I'll just quote Cin here

Even if the increase is not linear, linear increase is the minimum it can be (unless it exponentially decreases, which literally never happens for any power value that I know of), therefore, if Blueno scales to Town+ from being = or > Luffy just before Enies Lobby, then someone like Kaku, with a 2200 Doriki would be High 7-C in base, seeing as how he is more than double Blueno's physical power.

Also, if it's not a linear increase, then that means he's even more than 5x powerful than Fukuro. Either we use linear because there's more support for that, or assume it's exponential higher (not exponentially lower--no scale works like that when the value increases).

 

[RexofLM]

Keeping it linear isn't an option, doesn't conform the the wiki rules on power levels.

Would gear second Luffy be stronger than Zoan Lucci? I always took it as Lucci having the superior showings in the fight.

Luffy in gear second is definitely stronger, if you reread chapter 418-420 which is the first time Luffy enters Gear Second against Lucci. He sends Lucci flying with every hit and draws blood meanwhile Lucci fails to Hit Luffy with any attack. Luffy loses gear second around 420 as lucci points out its flaw of weakening over time and taxing him too hard. then lucci pummels base luffy and gear third luffy. Then in chapter 425 Luffy re enters gear second and fights on practically even terms while having the advantage. lucci has to jump back to lessen the jet pistol. luffy dodges his blitz attempt and blocks an attack after before throwing one of his own that lucci visibly recoils and seems pained by then gets flung by a twin jet pistol. Lucci only lands the first rokuogan at that point which deals massive damage. at this point the fight continues and lucci notes that Luffys losing speed as he maintains gear second and begins to be able to consistently dodge his techniques, they trade a few more blows and then lucci gets off the second rokuogan.

 

[RexofLM]

but like Tempest said Gear second had great showings he was dominating lucci until the form started to wear on him.

 

[XDragnoir]

Question, if we keep the doriki multipliers, will you guys try to upgrade G2 and G3 to be an "always 5x" multiplier?

 

[KingTempest]

Question, if we keep the doriki multipliers, will you guys try to upgrade G2 and G3 to be an "always 5x" multiplier?

We're leaving the multiplier in the past.

No statement, not enough proof

 

[Damage3245]

I agree with leaving the examination of the Marineford arc for last. We need to sort out everything regarding the previous arcs first of all.

 

[Eminiteable]

The issue with the Cin quote is he's still viewing it as a linear increase.

If the scaling chains still upgrade them into the High 8-C range that's fine, but the issue is he's viewing a Doriki of 5 times still as a 5 times strength difference.

 

[KingTempest]

The issue with the Cin quote is he's still viewing it as a linear increase.

If the scaling chains still upgrade them into the High 8-C range that's fine, but the issue is he's viewing a Doriki of 5 times still as a 5 times strength difference.

You probably mean High 7-C I'm assuming.

Cin was saying that Linear is the lowball.

The average human is 10-B while the lowest possible Superhuman Doriki is 7-C. Unless we do some stupid scaling, the minimum it could be is linear.

 

[Eminiteable]

The average human is 10-B while the lowest possible Superhuman Doriki is 7-C. Unless we do some stupid scaling, the minimum it could be is linear.

No, I think the point has been missed, Doriki's purpose is to say who's stronger than who.

This is how it applies to all verses, in dragon ball a minimum human is 5 and a moon buster is 400, but ultimately the function that power levels are used on the site for is an indicator of who's stronger and who's weaker. That's all.

If Lucci is 4000 and Blueno is 800 all we take away from that is Lucci is > Blueno.

 

[KingTempest]

No, I think the point has been missed, Doriki's purpose is to say who's stronger than who.

This is how it applies to all verses, in dragon ball a minimum human is 5 and a moon buster is 400, but ultimately the function that power levels are used on the site for is an indicator of who's stronger and who's weaker. That's all.

If Lucci is 4000 and Blueno is 800 all we take away from that is Lucci is > Blueno.

That's not the point.

We know that Doriki is to say who's stronger than who. The point is that we need a valid method of applying these to the profiles.

Just saying "> 35 kt, stronger than _____" is a pointless lowball. Rob Lucci's justification is gonna be this.

Town Level (Stronger than Blueno, but since we don't want to consider Doriki linear and we're gonna make a baseless assumption that they're even below linear, even though the difference between Lucci's and Blueno's Doriki is 4 times larger than Blueno's and an average human's Doriki, while a Rokushiki master has a Doriki of 500 and they're 100x stronger than the average man, but it doesn't matter since we have to conform to direct statements"

The Wiki's rules say that you can't assume it's linear, so we can assume that for some reason, they're very close and they're able to be backscaled on... that doesn't even make sense.

Lucci even saying "my doriki is 5x higher than his" when he's talking to people who don't even know what Doriki is says a lot.

 

[Eminiteable]

That's not the point.

We know that Doriki is to say who's stronger than who. The point is that we need a valid method of applying these to the profiles.

Just saying "> 35 kt, stronger than _____" is a pointless lowball. Rob Lucci's justification is gonna be this.

Town Level (Stronger than Blueno, but since we don't want to consider Doriki linear and we're gonna make a baseless assumption that they're even below linear, even though the difference between Lucci's and Blueno's Doriki is 4 times larger than Blueno's and an average human's Doriki, while a Rokushiki master has a Doriki of 500 and they're 100x stronger than the average man, but it doesn't matter since we have to conform to direct statements"

The Wiki's rules say that you can't assume it's linear, so we can assume that for some reason, they're very close and they're able to be backscaled on... that doesn't even make sense.

Lucci even saying "my doriki is 5x higher than his" when he's talking to people who don't even know what Doriki is says a lot.

But what's being low balled? Using base luffy and even gear second Luffy as a measuring stick to compare Blueno and Lucci there isn't a massive difference in stats.

 

[KingTempest]

But what's being low balled? Using base luffy and even gear second Luffy as a measuring stick to compare Blueno and Lucci there isn't a massive difference in stats.

We can't use those one panel collisions to judge stats.
I tried to do the same thing in another verse and we figured out that skirmishes aren't valid.

there isn't a massive difference in stats.

According to you guys, he overcame his Blunt Force Resistance.

Base Lucci didn't even use Rokushiki against Luffy.

And again, whatever "feats" Base Luffy has against Lucci means nothing for the overall Doriki scaling. They would be huge outliers for the rest of the cast

Franky fought someone w/ a Doriki 5 times lower than Blueno, who's basically around Base Luffy's strength, and got negged with one regular no Rokushiki punch, saying that he would've died if he fought Lucci.
Sanji kicked around a Zoan Jabra through his Tekkai but couldn't do the same to Base Lucci without Tekkai.

 

[Eminiteable]

We can't use those one panel collisions to judge stats.
I tried to do the same thing in another verse and we figured out that skirmishes aren't valid.

According to you guys, he overcame his Blunt Force Resistance.

Base Lucci didn't even use Rokushiki against Luffy.

And again, whatever "feats" Base Luffy has against Lucci means nothing for the overall Doriki scaling. They would be huge outliers for the rest of the cast

Franky fought someone w/ a Doriki 20 times lower than Blueno, who's basically around Base Luffy's strength, and got negged with one regular no Rokushiki punch, saying that he would've died if he fought Lucci.
Sanji kicked around a Zoan Jabra through his Tekkai but couldn't do the same to Base Lucci without Tekkai.

Fair enough, in which case Lucci would just become "At least Town level" or even "Town level+" if the difference is so large to warrant such.

 

[KingTempest]

Fair enough, in which case Lucci would just become "At least Town level" or even "Town level+" if the difference is so large to warrant such.

I guess so

 

[Voltairee]

So, i guess we don't use doriki numbers anymore?

 

[KingTempest]

Large differences massively upscale
Tiny differences show relativity
Tiny differences like Kaku and Jabra or Blueno, Kumadori, and Fukurou.

I know @CinCameron20 agrees with Linear Doriki and using Doriki numbers, but at least for me, idk

 

[KingTempest]

Alright.
Even though I'm still set on this 5x statement from Lucci, I'll hold off of it for now.

For CP9, all the upscaling.
Nami states she's no match for Kumadori, but she's confident enough to fight Kalifa (and she won).

Base Lucci's Dura upscales from Tekkai Zoan Jabra. Base Lucci took a kick from Sanji with no Tekkai, same Sanji who, while injured, made a Jabra w/ Tekkai bleed. Him with Tekkai massively upscales from Fukurou, since he could take a hit from Franky, same hit that blew away Fukurou.

Franky's Durability scales to Monster Point Chopper for taking a hit and coming out unscathed.

Gear Second Luffy's AP >>> No Tekkai Base Lucci's Dura > Sanji's AP > Tekkai'd Zoan Jabra's Dura
Franky's Dura > Monster Point Chopper's AP >>> Tekkai'd Kumadori's Dura

Can we add the fact that Kalifa's devil fruit halves the strength of anyone it touches? The links on mangasee (horrible translations) says ability, but Stephen Paul's says strength.

 

[Eminiteable]

Good analysis

 

[KingTempest]

If any calc members are on this page (I.E. Damage), this is a redo of a calc that was previously accepted for Mr. 4, but was never applied.

Mr. 4 Explosion Redo (One Piece)

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Damage3245]

Just to note, the official release just has Nami say "He's too strong."

And I'm not sure what you mean by Franky was unscathed. He was pretty beaten up afterwards, but he also had some battle damage from before. And after the hit he is just lying there on the ground.

As for the Kalifa note, that puts two translations against one. I don't think we can say either of them are better than the other unless we had additional proof.

Also, how you do you know that Lucci didn't use Tekkai to block Sanji's kick? Was that noted?

 

[KingTempest]

Just to note, the official release just has Nami say "He's too strong."

Too strong, no match, basically the same thing.

And I'm not sure what you mean by Franky was unscathed. He was pretty beaten up afterwards, but he also had some battle damage from before. And after the hit he is just lying there on the ground.

That was from the prior fight. He was resting. He got back up and one shot him.

As for the Kalifa note, that puts two translations against one. I don't think we can say either of them are better than the other unless we had additional proof.

Stephen Paul was the translator for OP up until 545 w/ much better translations than the ones we see.

The colored version said that Enel was sound speed.
We already know Viz's mishaps.

If we want to use Viz's example, then we would have to use Viz's example for Linear Doriki as well, which I have no problem with.

Also, how you do you know that Lucci didn't use Tekkai to block Sanji's kick? Was that noted?

He had to move his arm to block his kick. Only Jabra can move while using Tekkai.
Also, he didn't say Tekkai, which he always does.

 

[KingTempest]

What weight do you guys think Usopp started to get hurt.

He has 3 "!!"s while there's 3 different weights, I'm advocating for 10kg

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Bump

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

I don't see a third "!!" and the first one seems to be next to 100 Kg so I think that's when he's actually getting hurt.

 

[KingTempest]

I don't see a third "!!" and the first one seems to be next to 100 Kg so I think that's when he's actually getting hurt.

I meant to say that there's 2 "!!"s and there's a groan after.

But that's cool then.

My plan was in the case that my calc (city block level) got accepted, we can use the 100kg (I wanted 10kg, but whatever) to calculate how much it would be if she used 10,000kg (just multiply by 100 or 1,000), and it would've found small town to town level results for Ms. Valentine's AP and dura, then it could be used to find out whatever Luffy and Zoro's AP during alabasta was (seems to be small town level to town level) for hurting Ms. Valentine.

 

[unworthy]

Since Skypea size needs to be re-visited, i would like to talk about raigo scaling to OP-verse since imo, is contradictory that enel with ship that uses his own energy has more AP than the whole OP-verse.

Ark maxim fuction according to Viz media.

Spoiler: Ark Maxim

Basically Ark maxim creates storm clouds, and these storm clouds amplify the volts that Enel put on them.

This is no different from what Nami does, but on a small scale (You need to read the whole chapter)
One Piece Chapter 192 (***********.com)
It can be seen that a small ball of electricity that only tickled miss doublefinger, but with the storm cloud its energy is amplified and becomes a more powerfuls lightnings capable of hurting miss doublefinger.
So the thunders clouds increases the volts and the amount energy (Thats why that single ball of electricity was able to become multiples lightnings bolts, this is whats happens to enel too, he can just create one lightning bolt at the time)

Let's go back to Enel, as I mentioned, Enel does the same thing as Nami but on a large scale, Ark maxim crates the storm clouds with Enels heat and the water he has inside some machines inside of it

here you can see that enels needs to put volts on the clouds to amplify the amount of volts/energy he used initially, by the storm clouds, here too, and in basically any occasion that enel uses those storms clouds

What's all this about? because Enel says his clouds are going to turn into dozens (x24 low end) lightningbolts at his biding (binding=adding some volts on the super dense storm clouds)

So basically storm clouds increase the energy/voltage by dozens of times the voltage/energy that Enel initially binded on them.

This makes sense too, because Enel without ark maxim, complety erased bilka, his hometown island.
One Piece Chapter 279 Page 3 (***********.com)
One Piece Chapter 279 Page 4 (***********.com)
One Piece Chapter 283 Page 13 (***********.com)

I'll just comment this for now, by seeing how you react, i will comment or add other arguments on it.

Second bump.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

I meant to say that there's 2 "!!"s and there's a groan after.

But that's cool then.

My plan was in the case that my calc (city block level) got accepted, we can use the 100kg (I wanted 10kg, but whatever) to calculate how much it would be if she used 10,000kg (just multiply by 100 or 1,000), and it would've found small town to town level results for Ms. Valentine's AP and dura, then it could be used to find out whatever Luffy and Zoro's AP during alabasta was (seems to be small town level to town level) for hurting Ms. Valentine.

Ah now that makes sense.

I say 100 Kg is when he starts getting hurt cause for japanese comics you read from top right to bottom right, then top left to bottom left while reading text bubbles from right to left. And since the first "!!" is a little below and to the left of the 100 Kg line, Usopp likely made that sound immediately after 100 Kg.

So wait, what would be the ap with 100 Kg?

 

[KingTempest]

Ah now that makes sense.

I say 100 Kg is when he starts getting hurt cause for japanese comics you read from top right to bottom right, then top left to bottom left while reading text bubbles from right to left. And since the first "!!" is a little below and to the left of the 100 Kg line, Usopp likely made that sound immediately after 100 Kg.

Understood and I can agree with this.

So wait, what would be the ap with 100 Kg?

Right now it would be Large Building Level+.
Via my new calc, 15 tons (City Block Level).

Usopp tanked this

Which I calced to be City Block level (off of a different angle of the explosion).

She would be 15 Tons w/ 100 kg.
1,000 kg she would be 150 tons (Multi City Block Level).
10,000 kg she would be 1,500 tons (Small Town Level).

Luffy and Zoro scale, making them 1.5 Kilotons during Alabasta. It's consistent because they become Town level in the next arc. Zoro says in Enies Lobby that they slowly became stronger.

Going from Large Building to Multi City Block to town doesn't seem like "slowly". So this shows even more consistency.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Nice, Low 7-C Alabasta Monster Trio.

 

[KingTempest]

I put a Sandbox in the OP.

KingTempest16/One Piece AP (Pre Timeskip)

vsbattles.fandom.com

Speaking of Alabasta, I'm requesting we fuse the keys of Alabasta and East Blue

Usopp doesn't have an east blue key, only alabasta, and he doesn't seem to have gotten stronger.

 

[KingTempest]

Also.

Hachi's swords each individually weigh 3x the weight of 100kg Miss Valentine.

I'm not requesting for 6x 300kg since that's against the multiplier standards. I'm requesting for Hachi, weakened Zoro, and those that scale to them to get minimum 3x the value of Miss Valentine's AP while using 100kg

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Hmm, I'm not sure if fusing would be a good idea since we know that they are getting stronger as the story progresses and there's a decent difference between feats in East Blue and Alabasta.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Also.

Hachi's swords each individually weigh 3x the weight of 100kg Miss Valentine.

I'm not requesting for 6x 300kg since that's against the multiplier standards. I'm requesting for Hachi, weakened Zoro, and those that scale to them to get minimum 3x the value of Miss Valentine's AP while using 100kg

I could see that, but I don't know if weight scaling is the best idea, so a possibly might be better.