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One Piece Post-Timeskip Scaling and Calcs #8

@PlumCrayfish, I think the reason why Sabo just has 7-A+ is because there is no indication Fujitora was fighting at full strength.
 
@Plum - It's basically interchangeable considering Luffy's Durability scales to Gear 3rd since he can take hits from characters who can match him blow for blow (Like Fujitora).

I believe I meant to put "Casually stomped Gear 2nd and 3rd Luffy, and incapacitated him with a single punch in the face during their first encounter, and later with a single kick to the face."
 
In that case wouldn't that just be "Casually stomped Monkey D. Luffy, and incapacitated him with a single punch in the face during their first encounter, and later with a single kick to the face." ?

Also, am I remembering incorrectly or did he use his Gear 3 limbs as a shield against one of Fujitora's attacks?
 
@Damage - He definitely did not block it with one of his limbs, as we see steam rolling off his torso as we next see him in Base sent flying from the attack, also his base had taken hits from Black Knight, and Doflamingo--the former pressuring Law, and the latter casually capable of killing Sanji and Smoker with a single blow had x character not intervened at the last moment.

His Durability is definitely above Sanji's if that's the case.
 
Also, I'll edit CP9 and some of the Strawhat Pre time-skip profiles, seeing as how we discussed the Doriki scaling again.

Even if the increase is not linear, linear increase is the minimum it can be (unless it exponentially decreases, which literally never happens for any power value that I know of), therefore, if Blueno scales to Town+ from being = or > Luffy just before Enies Lobby, then someone like Kaku, with a 2200 Doriki would be High 7-C in base, seeing as how he is more than double Blueno's physical power.

So:

Kalifa: 7-C+ (630 Doriki keeps her within this range)

Fukuro/Kumadori: 7-C+ (800/810 Doriki in contrast to Blueno's 820, meaning the gap is almost non-existent)

Blueno: 7-C+ (Defeated Water 7 Sanji and fought Luffy)

Jabra: High 7-C (Far stronger than Blueno, considering he has a Doriki of 2180), higher with Zoan forms

Kaku: High 7-C (Slightly stronger than Jabra, having a Doriki of 2200), higher with Zoan forms

Rob Lucci: High 7-C (Strongest CP9 member by far with a 4000 Doriki, claimed to be 5 times stronger than Fukuro), higher with Zoan forms.

By extension, the Straw Hats and characters during Thriller Bark and Sabaody would scale accordingly.
 
Hmmm, what would their actual AP be, would it be something like this where since Kalifa is the weakest and we have no evidence to presume she is much stronger than Skypeia Robin or weaker, she would be likely to be around the 65.349 KT benchmark. Thus, going accordingly to the Doriki chart this would mean that: Fukuro is 83KT, Kumadori is 84KT, Blueno is 85KT, Jabra is 226KT, Kaku is 228KT while Lucci is 415KT?
 
We're scaling based off of Blueno. Blueno defeated Sanji and fought Luffy quite casually.

If anything, it'd probably be like this:

Blueno = >65.349KT

Kalifa = 58.1765487799KT (Still has a 7-C+)

Fukuro/Kumadori = Idrc cuz the difference is inconsequential from Blueno

Kaku/Jabra = 175.326585366KT in base (For Kaku, Idrc about Jabra's specific number since, again, inconsequential)

Lucci = 318.775609756KT in base

Kalifa's comparatively weaker than the rest of CP9. All we saw was her casually stomping the Galley La, who are individually weaker than Luffy at the time. Sanji was about to one-shot her, and Nami--the WEAKEST Straw-hat--bested her.

I'll apply changes.
 
So, that would make Asura around 525.979756098 Kilotons then. Sanji two shot Jabra w/ Zoan Form with Diable Jambe. Zoro defeated Kaku w/ Zoan Form with a single blow from Asura. G2 Luffy should scales around there and in this form keep up with Lucci w/ Zoan Form but G3 scales vastly above it from nearly one-shotting Lucci with it, even with Tekkai.

Also, why is Luffy the only one with "Likely High 7-C" in base and not the other two of the Monster Trio
 
Because Zoro was fighting and pressuring Kaku, who is straight up High 7-C in base via scaling. Sanji in base managed to fend off Jabra in his Zoan form, so he's also High 7-C in Base. Luffy only fought Blueno (7-C+), and then a casual Rob Lucci, unable to seriously hurt him, but still held his own. Unlike him, Sanji was capable of hurting Jabra quite seriously. That's why.

Well, if we're going by the 3x multiplier, then sure. I think a + would be added to Lucci, Gear 2nd and 3rd Luffy. Lucci was heavily implied to be capable of killing the rest of the Straw Hats on his own, in any case, as suggested by Luffy and Usopp.
 
We're gonna have to create a note on the Verse Page that explains the CP9 rating and Doriki to people new to One Piece

Besides that, for Shiryu rating, he is At least Large Town level (Able to cut Gekko Moriah by a sneak attack, and is said to be the equal of Magella), likely higher (He should at least be comparable to other Yonko Commanders)

I'm confused about the comparable to other Yonkou Commanders bit in terms of ratings as many of the Yonkou Commanders are 7-A+, possibly High 7-A+. Is this rating good as it is?
 
I changed the rating to that after the discussion last night. That simply implies they are (at minimum) as strong as Cracker's Biscuit Soldiers, and (possibly) as strong as Katakuri.

Before, they were High 7-A from... I think scaling to other commanders, but it wasn't entirely clear where the value came from. Probably Bound Man Luffy from before.
 
I don't really know about adding the '+' to Pre-Timeskip Luffy Gears, especially Luffy Gear 2nd. Would be best to leave it as Large Town level.

EDIT: I believe Shiryu should have two keys, one for Pre-Timeskip and one for Post Timsekip

At least High 7-C (Is said to be equal to Magellan) | Possibly High 7-A+ (Stronger than before, cut down Moriah via sneak attack. Should be comparable to other Yonkou Commanders)
 
High 7-C+ isn't a thing. Zoro being 525KT isn't enough to provide the + since the halfway between 100KT and 1MT is 550KT.

So Luffy should be 7-C+ in Base (if not with an at least), At least High 7-C with Gear Second (since he competed with Zoan Lucci who's >>> Base Lucci (318KT), far higher with Gear Third (nearly one-shoted Zoan Lucci while using Tekkai).
 
We can't give a rating on Shiryu if there's only a feat of him cutting down Moriah. We'd have to leave him at Unknown, in which case, there's no point in giving him another Key. We don't know how the BB crew stacks up to the other Yonko crews, as Burgess got wrecked pretty hard by Sabo, and I seriously doubt Sabo is as strong as Gear 4th Luffy, let alone comparable. Personal opinion, but that's irrelevant since it's mostly factual from what we are given so far.

@Calaca - Luffy should be "Likely High 7-C" in base in any case since he was capable of holding his own against Rob Lucci, who in base is over 3x the base-line, and it would be ridiculous for him to get a little roughed up by someone less than 1/3 of his power. I remember him having some bruises and cuts before Gear 2nd Luffy, but could be wrong.

The + was a mistake then. Oops :p
 
He had some bruises (if that's the right word for it), but never took any damage from Luffy's efforts. Plus, we never see Luffy actually landing a hit on Lucci before he Jet Pistoled him in the jaw when Franky appeared.

I'm okay with both options if there's arguments for it, so I want to see what does other people think if Base Luffy should be 7-C+ or High 7-C.
 
I think Calaca's suggestion for Luffy's ratings makes sense.
 
He appeared to be strained, but it didn't look like his Tekkai was broken there, or that he was feeling pain.
 
Now that I remember, Luffy used a Rifle and Zoan Lucci used Tekkai to block the attack, and not the regular Tekkai to make it worst but Tekkai Utsugi, which was meant to deflect the attack. By no means Lucci'd have a reason to use Tekkai against base Luffy if he was unscathed in base minutes before during the fight.
 
Regarding Doflamingo's High 7-A+ rating, while he did manage to last 20 minutes against Luffy, this panel really doesn't indicate any clear signs of damage to me.

On top of that we have a case where Doflamingo hit base Luffy with his Haki-enforced Awakening threads multiple times and didn't cause extremely major damage to him.

I think that At least 7-A+, likely higher would be a better rating for him.
 
Alright so.....what matches that need to removed and what matches that still can be continued since looks like the change are applied right now.
 
Veloxt1r0kore said:
Alright so.....what matches that need to removed and what matches that still can be continued since looks like the change are applied right now.
Click to expand...
There are few things that need to be done, some calculations have to redone/created and etc..., so revisions aren't finished. You can go to the Verse Page by the Calculation Section. It is updated with the recent stuff so far.
 
@Velox That's mostly irrelevant in this revision. Plus, I'm removing outdated matches if the tiers don't fit with the other character when I get to edit some profiles already.
 
@Damage - Luffy was initially defending with Haki, which by nature mitigates the effects of Devil Fruits, and he was still pierced by the attack once his Hardening went away. He didn't tank it if he's being stabbed through the torso immediately upon his Haki deactivating, and Doflamingo later used his powers to take control of him and mockingly contemplated how he should have him killed.

  • It's like saying Law should scale to Doflamingo's AP for blocking one of his attacks with Haki despite the attack being Goshikito, which is a Devil Fruit attack, and Haki has been established as a foil to Devil Fruit abilities.
Also, Doflamingo was quite frankly on his last leg by the time that occurred. Both he and Luffy barely had strength to fight, as mentioned a couple pages prior. Doflamingo claims this, and Luffy simply responds that the "same goes for you", and both are clearly not at their best in any case. We literally see Doflamingo piercing Luffy sending him backwards with two of these panels.

And Luffy's got questionable holes in his torso (top right, but they vanish immediately when he goes Gear 4th lol) immediately after the Flap Thread attack, so he definitely took serious damage from it. It is just like with every Luffy fight, he somehow powers through attacks that should otherwise kill him. There's many examples before and after this regarding the Monster Trio in this regard, and I don't think you should discredit this merely because Luffy withstood the attack (only with Haki) before being pierced several times by a severely weakened Doflamingo.

  • Don't forget, Doflamingo gradually went from one-shotting Luffy at the early stages of their encounter to struggling to keep him down just before Gear 4th, and Gear 4th definitely took Doflamingo down even further than he was post-Gamma Knife.
 
Also, a similar argument could be made regarding Katakuri's performance against Base-3rd Gear Luffy, if we're really going to discuss this.

I think it's clear that the main protag is simply not going to be killed, even if he's being attacked by someone stronger than him (Doflamingo, Katakuri, and especially Kaido)
 
??? Busoshoku Haki does increase defense and AP (which we do not factor into character stats due to no indication for how much Haki affects each user, as a base value is unknown, and each character varies in proficiency with the ability), but it also allows users to negate the effects of Devil Fruits, allowing them to grab intangible beings such as Logia and specific Paramecia types, as well as defend against the attacks from Devil Fruits (Vergo and Tashigi both failed against Law in this regard due to their Haki not being powerful enough, the latter being pointed out by Smoker).

Statements occasionally pop up, like this one, which indicate that Haki has the capacity to negate the attacks of Devil Fruit Users.

Also, throughout their fights with Law, both Smoker and Doflamingo were blocking and deflecting his strikes from within his Room, which would be impossible without Haki in the first place.
 
The extent to which Haki interacts with Devil Fruit abilities has always been a bit unclear.

Yes, Doflamingo implied that Vergo's Haki could withstand Law's spatial cutting but it could be that he either overestimated Vergo's Haki, or that he completely underestimated the nature of Law's ability.

Saying that Luffy's Armament Haki mitigated the effects of Doflamingo's Haki-coated strings through DF-power negation seems a bit plausible but it also seems rather speculative.

Whether we agree or that point or not; there is also the matter that Doffy never explicitly hurt Gear 4 Luffy during their fight.

I think this may serve better:

At least 7-A+ (List of various feats against Sanji, Smoker, Law, Luffy, etc.), likely higher (Able to make Gear 4 Luffy dodge his attacks)
 
To make the claim that Haki entirely mitigates Devil Fruit's effects is an absurdly bold one, and would re-work all durability scaling from Fruit Users if we accepted that since by definition any attack would be weakened. Further, almost zero evidence exists in support of this claim; the only thing we know for a fact is that Armament Haki enables oneself to interact with the true form of whomever they assault, bypassing Logia intangibility. The only thing we ever see Armament used for is a defense/AP boost, and bypassing intangibility.

Damage makes a correct claim though: Doffy has anti-feats against Gear 4 Luffy, not a single positive showing for his AP to scale. He outright fails to damage Luffy in Gear 4 when trying his very best. There's zero way he scales in a way that is logical, since if you did try to scale him we would get Gear 4 Luffy=Doffy=Base Luffy.
 
Haki negating DF attacks is completely incorrect. It defends against attacks in the same way a plate of armour would, it doesn't have any weakening affect on DF attacks AT ALL. If a character blocked a df attack with Haki they would scale to that character who attacked them
 
We only saw him hitting Gear 4th in 2 panels for their entire fight. The rest of it was off-panel, or Base Luffy getting thrashed.

I'll argue about the whole Haki thing when I return from work, as I don't have the time right now.
 
> The rest of it was off-panel

That's why I think there is the potential for him to be Likely higher, but his main stats should probably be At least 7-A+.
 
@Damage - As discussed in another thread regarding the terms, "higher" indicates "higher" within the same tier, but here, we're arguing the scaling for a character who is High 7-A+, and not simply higher in 7-A+. It would be better to place "At least 7-A+, likely/possibly High 7-A+" for x reasons.

@Xulrev - That same exact scan you posted has Rayleigh stating the following, and this is just one example: "This 'Armament Haki' is the sole method of effectively combating their [DF users] abilities" and goes on to list affecting the body of Logia users as an example.

I never said Haki in general completely negates the attacks of DF users, just that it mitigates--that means lower its effectiveness by a degree. Smoker, for example, was fighting Trafalgar Law within his Room, and was clearly blocking and deflecting his Room slashes, and indicated earlier that Tashigi did not have Haki strong enough to hold against his ability. That's evidence enough that Haki mitigates the effect of DF attacks.

Now then, we also have the statement from Rayleigh and Doflamingo where both state Haki can resist or combat their abilities (Though Doffy clearly underestimated Law when against Vergo). You suggested that Rayleigh meant only for touching Logias, but he very clearly phrased it as an example: "Even the fluid bodies of the near-invincible Logia Fruit users can be forced into solidity with it", and he states Devil Fruits in general when regarding Armament combating its abilities.

The argument here is that Doflamingo scales only to Base Luffy's Durability simply because Luffy withstood Flap Thread until his Haki broke, but 1) we don't use Haki in character stats due to the Statistics Amplification value never being explored, and 2) once Luffy's haki broke, he was easily pierced, meaning he did not withstand the attack with his own durability, and 3) The possibility that Luffy weakened Doflamingo's attack by using Haki to defend himself--on top of the fact that he obviously bolstered his own durability by using Haki in general.
 
@Cin; I see, thanks for the correction.

In that case 'At least 7-A+ (Most of the reasons on his profile), likely/possibly High 7-A+ (Lasted against Boundman Luffy offscreen for 20 minutes)' would be what I meant to say.
 
@Cin

I think you're stretching what Rayleigh said a bit here. He obviously intended to imply Armament can resist some of the extraneous hax of Devil Fruits, but nowhere does it imply that Armament would mitigate the efficacy of Doflamingo's Haki-tipped strings simply because of the fact they're made with a Devil Fruit. (which was your original contention). That would be a rather absurd argument considering people were interacting with the Bird Cage with Haki and it was perfectly fine.

If we presume Haki somehow weakens Devil Fruits, we ought to rework Luffy's profile since he scales to 'destroying Doflamingo's threads' and weakening his threads via Haki would mean Luffy does not directly scale to their full power.
 
@Xulrev - I recommend you visit the profiles before using such an argument, as I do not see anywhere that Luffy scales from "destroying Doflamingo's threads". He scales from the Black Knight (destroyed it with a Jet Gatling--no haki implied, mind you) and Fujitora, and his Gear 4th is outright stated to be 3x stronger than his previous limit.

No, you're implying that Rayleigh strictly meant that Armament affects only Logia users and their ability to change into their element, but the statement regarding combating "Devil Fruit abilities" is right there. You are just zoning it out. You've yet to counter the other statements and examples brought up, so I think that's clear.

  • Regarding the Bird-Cage, the only people who were able to even touch it without being cut were Haki users, other DF abilities (Bartolomeo's barrier), and Sea-stone (which nulls DF powers). Your argument makes no sense. Again, I stated Haki mitigates the effects of DFs, not outright nullify them. Also, you seem to forget that sea-stone itself was not capable of actually erasing the cage...
    • And you're the one "stretching" if you are now suggesting that Luffy's Haki would NOT mitigate the effectiveness of Doflamingo's attack, when, again, it's a DF attack, and despite it being coated in Haki, that doesn't change the matter one bit. Luffy used Haki to withstand the attack, and he was pierced into when his Haki was broken.
 
> Again, I stated Haki mitigates the effects of DFs, not outright nullify them.

Enough to mitigate a potentially High 7-A+ attack from Doflamingo down to 7-A+?

That's part of the problem in that we don't know how much Haki would mitigate a DF-based attack.

Luffy withstanding the attack when he had his Haki up initially may be due to Haki stopping the effectiveness of the attack, or it could be just down to Armament Haki increasing durability.
 
@Damage - Remember, both characters were on their last bit of strength. Neither at full capacity. Doflamingo was wobbling with each step after Leo Bazooka, and Luffy was barely capable of standing at that point. Doffy definitely didn't have the strength to outright kill Luffy (also, main protag, but that's a moot argument).

The argument I am making is that the reason Luffy even held out against that attack for some time was because of his Haki, and when it went away, it didn't matter because he could not withstand the attack due to it piercing him in several locations. I'm also arguing that Armament does both mitigate DF effectiveness as well as increase durability--the latter already used here anyways.
 
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