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One Piece Post-Timeskip Scaling and Calcs #8

So for Hody Jones' scaling cause I need to make sure:

Unknown but at least High 8-C+ (Surpass Arlong in strength) | Low 7-B+ (Should be stronger than the Weak Trio. Compete with a casual Luffy) | Possibly 7-A+ (Pierced G2 Luffy's shoulder) | 10-C

My memory of Fishman Arc is rather poor and I forget about Monster Hody piercing Luffy's shoulder, whether it was base or G2 in the manga, don't know but using the anime for now:

Also, I believe Dressrosa Luffy could be "At least Low 7-B+ (Matched blows with Chinjao), possibly 7-A+ (Shouldn't be any far weaker than Sanji or Zoro)".

I don't mind as long as it is agreed to one key. There was a reason why Luffy was separated into Dressrosa and Whole Cake Island but I can't remember.

EDIT: I believe it was separated because Dressrosa Luffy and WCI Luffy is difference due to the learning of Future Sight and him competeing with Katakuri mostly in his base form, meaning that he gotten much stronger than he was with Doflamingo, who could easily one-shot Base Luffy
 
I think it's merely because people tried to scale Gear 3rd to Katakuri for ONE punch when that was either a fluke, or an outlier because Katakuri consistently overpowered Gear 3rd Luffy before ever utilizing his Awakening.
 
We should keep both keys for Luffy's Post-Timeskip version since he has some new abilities in the Whole Cake arc that he doesn't have in the previous (especially his Observation upgrade).

Plus, the ratings might change, and to save time and effort we should keep both keys and wait until the revisions for both arcs are finished to determine if we should keep both or merge them (tho I said that Luffy does need both).

I'm gonna start with the edits for some characters.

Edit: What's the conclusion about Luffy's Durability? We should scale it to Gear 3rd in any form at the very least considering both initial Gears ain't Durability upgrades. The only one who looks like it it's G4 which is a different tier.

Plus, Snakeman should be Likely High 7-A for being comparable to Katakuri who can harm Boundman (since Awakening doesn't increase AP) and Tankman should be just High 7-A or even At least High 7-A since he did the same as Boundman but with many soldiers, on top of one-shoting Cracker. I don't think the difference between where G3 scales and the Biscuit Soldiers is wide enough to not give them the High 7-A.
 
@Calaca - Biscuit Soldiers should remain At least 7-A+. They only stopped one punch from Gear 3rd, and the first one got two-shot by Kong Gun--the first blow being blocked by a shield but still breaking through it and damaging it. The second one destroying the Biscuit's attack, weapon, and splitting it in two. When they collectively tried to block a Kong Organ, we see their shields shattering and it takes several of them to withstand it long enough for Cracker to leap into Luffy.

Also, I'm pretty certain the only thing Luffy developed in WC was Kenbunshoku, and he had all of his Gear 4th forms by this time. As Rayleigh was still with him and he had already developed Bound Man early in his training. He simply did not use Snake Man or Tank Man against Doflamingo.

Here's my conclusion for Luffy (As of Dressrosa, at least. Whole-Cake would remain mostly the same):

At least Low 7-B+, Possibly 7-A+ in Base (Significantly stronger than fighters such as Cavendish and Chinjao, and should not be drastically inferior to Zoro or Sanji, who are both this powerful. He was also capable of harming a severely injured Doflamingo, albeit only through using his Haki), At least 7-A+ with Gear 2nd (At least equal to Zoro, who defeated Pica), At least 7-A+ with Gear 3rd (Stronger than Gear 2nd), High 7-A+ with Gear 4th (Noted by Doflamingo to be 3x stronger than his previous limit, and one-shot Cracker with Tank-Man Full Version), Likely High 7-A+ with Snake Man (Capable of matching Katakuri Blow-for-blow, and ultimately defeated him. Though this form is unlikely to equal Bound Man in terms of physical power, as it is more speed orientated).

By extension:

Donquixote Doflamingo: At least 7-A+ with Black Knight (Pressured Law, and was only defeated by Gear 2nd Luffy. Physically overpowered Base Luffy on several occasions, and could hurt him), Likely High 7-A+ himself (Stomped Smoker and Sanji. Casually above Law, and easily ripped one of his arms off when he got serious. Noted Gear 2nd and 3rd attacks from Luffy as being weak and casually overpowered both forms of attack, even whilst their attacks were coated with Haki. One-shot Luffy on two occasions. Despite being physically weaker than Bound Man Luffy, Doflamingo was capable of taking several strikes after already being injured and could put up a resistance, and his awakening could deflect and block attacks from Bound Man while also pressuring him heavily over 20 minutes--even without the use of Haki).

Charlotte Cracker: At least 7-A+, possibly higher with Biscuit Soldiers (Stronger than Gear 3rd Luffy, and could harm Base Luffy, but far inferior to the likes of Bound Man Luffy, as a single punch could shatter one of them) | Possibly High 7-A+ (Could harm Bound Man Luffy, albeit with Haki and using piercing and slashing attacks, which are the Gomu Gomu no Mi's weakness, however, he was defeated by Tank-Man Luffy with one blow)

Charlotte Katakuri: Likely High 7-A+ (Stronger than Cracker and Smoothie. Easily overpowered Gear 3rd Luffy several times, and could withstand attacks from Bound Man Luffy, albeit with Haki, and he could stagger and deflect strikes from Bound Man Luffy with little difficulty)

That's basically it for them. This is assuming the Bird Cage is not above any of the current scaling.
 
If Luffy two-shoted a Biscuit Soldier that means the BS scales to BM (although much lower than BS with all things considered). But being above G3 which is already >>838MT makes me think that High 7-A isn't a stretch. Even Doffy should do now that I think about it.

Still a big difference from having small glimpses of the enemy's next move to watching the future. Plus, we don't know if Katakuri's gonna scale to anything else once we start the next discussions so we should not merge the keys right now.

I wasn't talking about G4's forms. If Luffy had them during Dressrosa then so be it. He didn't demonstrated them.

Those ratings are good (tho Luffy will need another edit for the Possibly 7-A+ thing).
 
@Calaca - It didn't even successfully block an attack. The first one completely broke its shield and still sent it flying and it was damaged. The second shot overpowered an attack and proceeded to split it in two.
 
If it didn't broke in two in the first attack then that's a durability feat. Pretty weak if you ask me, but not being broke into pieces by something and managing to stand up and fight back IS a feat by itself. This'd scale the BS clearly below BM, but still scaling to it.
 
Calaca Vs said:
Yes, it was explained that Awakening doesn't increase the user's AP and still Katakuri managed to hurt Boundman with clear strikes using it. Saying otherwise now would be a double-standard.
Click to expand...
Did Katakuri ever land a hit on Boundman Luffy without using Awakening?

If we're scaling Katakuri (Awakening included) to Boundman Luffy then he should be straight up High 7-A+.

Doflamingo should he could block one of Boundman's attacks, but I still feel like that should make him just Possibly High 7-A+.
 
Possibly High 7-A+ for Doflamingo is fine since we never see him really hurt Bound Man Luffy (on-panel), but he is heavily implied to have given him a serious challenge, given Luffy was being forced into evasion for their entire encounter and took as long as he did to finally land a solid hit on Doflamingo (I also believe it was shown in one of the panels that one of the awakening thread waves grazed Luffy, and sent him reeling, but I could be mistaken. Was this one) The visual indictation (yellow bit) implies as such.

Also, I'm questioning if Luffy hit Doflamingo again just before Leo Bazooka. We see the head-butt but it didn't physically seem to hit Doflamingo, but the next panel shows Doflamingo reeling, and spewing a little more blood. It's almost irrelevant, but more support for Doflamingo having High 7-A durability.

Also, if we are, indeed, going by the 838 MT scaling, then Doflamingo definitely does scale to being Possibly High 7-A in the first place. He has one-shot Smoker, almost executed Sanji after slapping him aside with incredible ease, Low-diffed Law twice, and stomped Gear 2nd/3rd Luffy (before being stabbed ofc). All of these characters scaling to/comparative/above the feat, so Doflamingo not being even base-line High 7-A anyways is slightly strange.

And yeah, Katakuri has similar showing of stomping Base-3rd Gear Luffy, and then withstanding Bound Man attacks. Then we actually see him hurt Bound Man unlike Doflamingo (since... off-panel fight >_>, but to be fair, Katakuri got the same treatment with the Off-panel treatment, since we go back to the fight with Bound Man running out).

Possibly High 7-A+ for Doflamingo

High 7-A+ for Katakuri, then.
 
Should we start applying changes? All we'll have to worry about is the Bird-Cage feat, which may take a while... If KKG is higher in AP, it would only affect Luffy (unless it's MAGICALLY superior to Zunisha, which I seriously doubt. If that's the case, the Yonko would scale. But even with KE i doubt it will exceed 5 Gigatons of Tnt).

We need to apply the Low 7-B+ changes, the 7-B (for Elizabello's King Punch), the 7-A+ characters, and the High 7-A+ characters.

@Calaca - I personally feel like the Biscuit soldiers should remain At least 7-A+ given two punches killed one of them, the first being a fail block that resulted in the shield shattering, and the second destroying the biscuit after overpowering its attack. The difference between them is less than 3x anyways, so for the Biscuit to get up from one punch (that had to first go through a Haki infused defense, therefore being less impact than it would if he didn't block) is not surprised or full justification for it to be High 7-A.

  • Maybe Base-line, but that's all I'll totally agree with.
 
My suggestion for the Birdcage currently, is to say that the Birdcage alone has Possibly 6-C durability, and to not scale it to any other character for now.
 
We'll leave the Bird-Cage alone until a calc is made. Personally can see the durability ranging between High 7-A+ to mid 6-C. I need to get input from a calc member regarding a reliable method in how to determine its Durability and AP.

I suppose now it is okay to apply the changes discussed?
 
Sure.

About the Doflamingo Supreme Officers, do we have a statement saying they're all equally as strong as each other?

I'm just checking because out of all of them Pica was confident he could handle both the Marines and Pirates by himself. He also seemed very unimpressed by Diamante after he had been defeated, and when I compare all of the feats performed by Diamante and Trebol to Pica, they are awfully lacking.
 
Vergo has like one High 8-C feat, Trebol has 8-A feats, while Diamante has arguably High 7-C feats for destruction. All Supreme officers scale to eachother seeing as how they all have the same bounties (Among the same crew, meaning they were seen as equal threats, but this was before they were frozen), the same rank and prestige, and that they should all be significantly stronger than the rest of the Executives. All Trebol and Diamante have is power-scaling.

Pica was simply being cocky. He's tough, but he even believed he could defeat an Admiral on his own despite Zoro making quick work of him and Luffy trolling him. It's not enough to say he'd beat all of them when the events that transpired proved the contrary. He was un-amused that Diamante was put in such a miserable condition and losing in general.;

Also, if it hasn't been added already, Diamante's weakness is his forehead. Idk the details, but the Dressrosa Pack suggests he wears a large hat to cover his biggest weak-point, but I don't know to what extent this 'weakness' hampers him.
 
> All Trebol and Diamante have is power-scaling.

Yeah, I don't really have a better solution for them currently, I just wanted to point out that it's not ideal for their profiles.

It just doesn't seem great to me to say that they are likely equal to Pica's most impressive feat with the stone golems based on bounties and rank.

The forehead weakness seems like a pretty weird deal. I'm not even sure why Oda would include it given that it didn't have much to do with how he was defeated.
 
Also Diamante was within Sabo's Fire-fist attack, and Sabo has fought (casual) Fujitora and Burgess, so his durability at the very least should be 7-A+ anyways.
 
And just for the sake of checking that the justifications are accurate - where was Gear 2 Luffy said to be comparable to Zoro?
 
No where (unless I'm wrong and it is stated), but it's incredibly unlikely for Luffy in Gear 2nd or Base to be THAT inferior to his own crew.

He also was capable of harming a freshly injured Doflamingo in base (albeit with Haki infused strikes), so for him to be so much weaker than Pica or Zoro with his Gear 2nd is just strange.
 
> so for him to be so much weaker than Pica or Zoro with his Gear 2nd is just strange.

Well, that was part of the reason why I was originally questioning scaling Zoro directly to Pica's Golems.

In terms of AP, Zoro's one calced feat against the Stone Golems is a lot less than the 800 Megatons feat of Pica regrowing himself - and we only have a single case of Zoro being hit by one of Stone Golem Pica's attacks and that was by a much smaller version of the Stone Golem.

Zoro is unquestionably superior to base Pica - but he hasn't displayed any feats that make him stronger than Pica's stone golems.
 
I guess it can be left out of his description, since he would scale above the Black Knight, which scales to Trafalgar Law and possibly Kyros.
 
Oh, you're back to this now despite the argument ending last thread (and you conceding, at that). This seems familiar. I'm going to interrupt you with a massive "pass".
 
I'm just saying, all Zoro's profile says is 'Stronger than Pica's Golems' and that doesn't contain a lot of information for how we measured Zoro's AP against Pica's AP.
 
I did not even touch half of the profiles until just now. I glanced at Zoro's profile to make sure he was 7-A+, and he was, so I moved on. Besides, we already argued this, and concluded that Zoro is stronger than the Golem's as he tanked their punches, and he casually destroyed them at every turn, and is casually far above Pica in physical strength anyways. And Pica scales comparative to his own Golems since he requires his own energy to manipulate the stone in such a fashion, and yes, you argued "telekinesis", but conceded when I pointed out why it wasn't, and why it should scale.
 
I just noticed that some of the current profiles (like Ace's and Jinbe's just before I touched them) were horrible in their descriptions and had circles for scaling... Something needs to be done about that. High 7-A from what exactly? Scaling to other commanders? Probably gonna have to put all of them at "at least 7-A+, Possibly High 7-A+" for now due to being likely > Cracker's Biscuit Soldiers and at most as strong as Katakuri.
 
> Zoro is stronger than the Golem's as he tanked their punches

He tanked one punch.

> and he casually destroyed them at every turn

Doing so doesn't necessarily require 838+ Megaton energy; the actual destruction of the stone can be calced.

> and is casually far above Pica in physical strength anyways

This seems to be the main sticking point. If Pica's stone manipulation isn't equal to his physical strength in base then it falls apart.

The reason why I brought up telekinesis is to address the statement saying he requires his 'own energy' in order to manipulate the stone; some characters generate energy for certain attacks that isn't limited by their own physical power.

I'll give an example from inside the series; Fujitora has separate Lifting Strength values for his base strength and his Devil Fruit abilities; if the amount of gravity he could generate was limited to his physical strength then he wouldn't be capable of lifting up any more than what he could lift up himself physically.

Regarding Ace & Jimbe; yeah, I agree some of the current scaling for the Yonkou Commanders and comparable needs reworking to make the profiles clearer.
 
@Cin; thank you for helping with the profiles.

I know I seem like I'm nitpicking a lot - but I do think the profiles are generally in a much better place now and that the revision process has been a good one.
 
Since the revision is finally started, i would like to remember to also change the speed as well, since many characters had to be upgraded at "At least Massively Hypersonic" to "At least Massively Hypersonic, likely higher" via scaling.
 
Stefano4444 said:
Since the revision is finally started, i would like to remember to also change the speed as well, since many characters had to be upgraded at "At least Massively Hypersonic" to "At least Massively Hypersonic, likely higher" via scaling.
Click to expand...
Well, to be honest, we still have the speed revision thread to do, which could bring OP characters to Massively Hypersonic+ and Revalistic+
 
Yeah, PlumCrayfish is right.

Might as well make the Speed Revision thread with a full list of speed calcs and how it'd affect the current ratings.
 
Well Zunisha's Trunk had be accepted so it should validate the new scaling, even thought it is a Island level feat and not a Large Mountain level+ feat.

Ace's heat it still up to debate, but if accepted its likely that all Top Yonkou Commanders should had to be upgraded to fully Large Mountain level+ (or Likely Large Mountain level+) instead of be just possible.
 
IIRC Ace's feat was rejected because it made too many assumptions; not the least of which being which Island was effected, how many clouds there was, and time.

Continuing with the discussion though High 7-A+ Duffy seems way too high. He would be almost neck and neck with Gear 4 Luffy despite being ragdolled by him. It would mean he was holding back quite a lot against high 7-A characters.

I think the last suggestions from yesterday or the day before make the most sense.

High 7-A+ Gear 4 Luffy. Snakeman included. I would almost argue for At least high 7-A Tank-man given it took zero damage from Cracker and demonstrated far greater power then boundman

Cracker high 7-A+- I still don't buy the slicing argument from Cin; we know blunt attacks have gotten passed Luffy's abilities before. Also, while I'm not sure how many BS he went through if we assume a value of at least 800 megatons each and at least three soldiers then Cracker would be over 2.4 gigatons even without factoring the rest of the attack.

At least 7-A w/ BK. At least 7-A himself, likely higher. Likely High 7-A with awakening.
 
Update the Calculation section on the One Piece Verse Page with the new calcs. I want to know if we currently have the Yonkou and others scales to Fujitora's largest meteor instead of Zunisha calc of standing up
 
The speed thread is in the limbo on my PC until we get these revisions done. We have been doing this for months and adding another big discussion will turn this into Bleach's revisions.
 
On Doffy's profile:

> Even without Haki, his awakening threads were capable of keeping Gear 4th Luffy at bay for over 20 minutes, and likely damaged him at some point

Likely damaged Gear 4 Luffy? How?
 
@Damage - I pointed it out with one of the panels from earlier. There was a visual indication Luffy was struck or at least grazed by one of the spikes and it caused him to be sent reeling. Also, it would be unthinkable for Doflamingo to keep Luffy on the defensive, yet not land a single hit and Luffy just darts around while everyone in the country is on the verge of being killed during that entire time-frame.

Also, this whole Lifting Strength thing needs to be sorted out. I see people like Jozu having Class T when their feat isn't even Class M >_>;

Also, yeah, may we discuss Speed now? The powerscaling stuff is almost entirely sorted out, but not 100% concluded as at least 2 more calculations (only affecting the high tiers, and may not even touch the top tiers) are going to be made regarding Luffy's KKG and Doffy's Bird-Cage.

What calculations are accepted and result in MHS+ to Rel+ speeds? I'd like to see them all listed in this thread.

  • I personally don't care much for the Lifting Strength topic unless it ends up being the only thing to discuss.
 
@Cin; we still need to fully resolve some AP / durability stuff on this thread.

If a big discussion regarding speed ratings for the verse is going to be started, I believe Calaca said that he would create a new thread for that.

EDIT: Oh, I see which panel you meant now, this one? While I could see that as Doflamingo grazing Luffy, I don't see any visible signs of damage there.
 
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