One Piece Post-Timeskip Scaling and Calcs #6

[Damage3245]

Just because the majority of people disagree with me doesn't mean they're necessarily right either.

I think one issue may be that people are too used to One Piece being expected to be at a certain level of power; it wasn't that long ago that characters like Luffy were considered to be Country level after all...

 

[The_Calaca]

We have explained multiple times why your arguments don't hold up out of your mind, but you're still trying to put your ideas in our heads.

You're making it sound like every high feat is unreliable because past standards.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

I'm gonna have to agree with Calaca on this one. Trying to say that One Piece isn't even island level is major downplay especially whenever we have two 6-C calcs that can be used for scaling. Both of which we've gone over in the past.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't think all high feats are unreasonable. If Kaido swung his club at a mountain in Wano and got an accepted 6-C calc, I'd have no problems accepting it.

But context and consistency is also important. Right now the only named characters in the series that have accepted 6-C calcs are Fujitora and Enel. The former of which I consider to be dubious for scaling purposes, and the latter never actually ended up happening.

If there weren't so many calcs for upper tier characters that are getting low results, I probably wouldn't have as much of an issue with this as I do.

 

[The_Calaca]

In most works of fiction the Top Tiers don't have great feats either but scaling from weaker characters and that's no reason to disprove anything.

Other numbers would render Zunisha's existence to High 6-B, so this is actually a lowball right here. Even a dubious KE from a run would give Low 6-B results and I don't argue about that.

Nobody uses Enel's Raigo to scaling anything but Luffy's resistance. Dunno why do you add that part since nobody has said a thing ever.

 

[Damage3245]

Perhaps it is wrong of me to say that One Piece as a verse doesn't reach 6-C levels, but I think we really ought to re-evaluate the tiers for the high tier and top tier characters to check how consistent these ratings really are with the calcs of the verse.

The reason I mentioned Enel is because that is one the few 6-C calcs that the verse has left.

If we ignore that we're down to just Zunisha and Fujitora.

I don't know how many feats or calcs are necessary to make an outlier not an outlier, but just 2 isn't a whole lot.

 

[Captain_Torch]

Nobody should scale to Zunisha except from maybe Kaido. God tiers COULD scale, but we don't have enough proof for that yet. Nobody scales to Enel aside from himself. As for the meteorite, under normal circumstances I'd agree with Calaca. However I think that if Fujitora couldn't tank his own meteor, he'd actually be worried. He didn't expect the birdcage to stop it , andd I really doubt he is suicidal.

Having said that, Damage is the most fair person in this thtead. He doesn't have a biased standpoint, unlike some here(Not calling out names, neither implying that being bias is bad). Opinions vary, and his opinion about the scaling definetly has some valid points.

 

[The_Calaca]

Those 2 feats might be outlier if the result is immensely above. But Low 6-B isn't too far away from 6-C and the same between High 6-B and Low 6-B. But again, I won't argue about this.

@Torch

Kaido is the one who directly scales to Zunisha, the rest of the Yonko scales from being comparable albeit assumedly weaker than him and with them the Navy Admirals. All of them scales below Kaido.

Just a clarification, not even Enel scales. He did that with a great amount of preparation and equipment, not by himself only.

 

[Damage3245]

This is the full statement by itself used for Kaido's scaling:

- People say, "In a one-on-one fight, always bet on Kaido." Land, Sea and Air -- Out of every living thing in the world this pirate is said to be the strongest creature alive!!! -

Is this statement enough, in the absence of any supporting feats or calcs for Kaido, enough to justify full 6-C rating for himself and several other characters indirectly?

After all I could see a fire-breathing flying dragon beating Zunisha in a one-on-one fight without actually scaling to Zunisha's AP. And who are these people that the narrator is referring to who say that Kaido is the strongest creature alive?

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

Here we go again with totally ignoring the context of statements and being overly skeptical. I've really just about had it with you always trying to low ball this verse to R/WhoWouldWin levels, aka City Level. It's honestly extremely annoying dealing with the amount of skepticism you have for everything, wither it be from cut clear statements or calcs.

 

[The_Calaca]

There's a thing called author intent, the thing you keep ignoring like every single time a feat/statement comes into discussion.

I'm pretty sure the Databook for Kaido'd say the same thing. So what? Did the OP world inhabitants write his entry? Disproving the 6-C to just change it back again in a couple of months is unnecessary work and we don't need more.

"I could see a fire-breathing flying dragon beating Zunisha in a one-on-one fight without actually scaling to Zunisha's AP" right, because Kaido has hax or something like that, doesn't he? 28GT is the energy Zunisha generates being stand still, just with that. He doesn't feel pain nor gets injured from that. To beat Zunisha, Kaido would need to punch harder than 28 Gigatons. That's powerscaling.

 

[Damage3245]

> To beat Zunisha, Kaido would need to punch harder than 28 Gigatons.

Are you telling me that the cannons on Jack's fleet of ships were firing 28 Gigaton cannonballs at Zunisha's legs, seriously damaging it to the point where Zunisha needed medical attention?

 

[Dr.Fix]

Guys let's try and keep it civil. If you have a critique of someone's analysis then explain it with details from the manga. Do not just insult others/their evidence for the sole purpose of trying to discredit them or appealing to majority vote. We all like One-peice, we should be able to at least be civil.

 

[The_Calaca]

Should Shirohige survive the fodder stabbing?

Using the verse rules doesn't mean a thing. We use our own rules and usually ignore the verse rules. On top of that, we don't know if said cannons are really as strong as IRL cannons. It's the Yonko fleet, they might have something special or not, who knows.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

> To beat Zunisha, Kaido would need to punch harder than 28 Gigatons.

Are you telling me that the cannons on Jack's fleet of ships were firing 28 Gigaton cannonballs at Zunisha's legs, seriously damaging it to the point where Zunisha needed medical attention?

Totally ignoring that they had to aim at his weak spots, aka old dying skin on his knees.

 

[Dr.Fix]

How's this for a compromise:

Kaido & Zuu: 6-C, obvious reasons

All other top tiers (Healthy!): possibly/likely 6-C. If it will stop the crying and insulting I'll even go as far as just 6-C so we can move on from this constant insulting.

At least 7-A/High 7-A (Depending on if Cin brings Birdcage back), possibly 6-C. All high tiers up to and including the admirals and a severely nerfed Whitebeard.

I bet the last one will be the most difficult for a few users to accept. but honestly I think its time we put this to bed and apply at least some actual analysis over pop vote..

 

[The_Calaca]

I agree with Fix. I'm sorry if this turned heated for a moment.

6-C, whether be Likely or Possibly is the bare minimum for the Top and God Tiers of the whole verse (Yonko and Admirals), I'm okay with any of the two options. Quiting it when we have 2 feats on that level is the wrong thing here.

Mountain level is right now the most solid thing for Dressrosa Top Tiers and maybe Whole Cake High Tiers, but that's a discussion for other day.

 

[Captain_Torch]

Admirals are weaker than Yonko, with commanders being even lower. It doesn't make sense for all of them to scale. Especially since Kaido is hyped to be the strongest in the verse, and is capable of casually one shotting a first mate level character.

 

[Dr.Fix]

You have to stop using top/god tier as justification. Its akin to going into a trial having already made up your mind a person is guilty. You will not screen all the facts. Need to have an open mind for this stuff.

 

[Damage3245]

Well, I won't try and challenge the 6-C ratings for the moment; I think that Likely / Possibly 6-C is best for most of them.

I just wanted to point out to everyone how there is decreasing amounts of evidence for ratings that were once solid in the past.

 

[The_Calaca]

It's a simple way to call them.

@Torch

Shirohige was hyped to be the strongest man in the world, and while he was able to two-shot Sakazuki, he took several hits from him and even lost half of his face when he was bloodlusted. Saying that the Admirals don't scale to the Yonko, even at a lower level, is ignoring some parts of the fight when they clashed.

"But Shirohige should be lower because he was old and sick" assuming that this would make him vastly below the other Yonko is a non-sense. They are all comparable since he clashed with Shanks, the guy who stopped the war with no opposition from anyone, not even Sakazuki or Kurohige.

First-Mates should be all comparable but some of them are clearly below others. The Shirohige Commanders have the arguably best feats, showing them clearly above the rest. The Yonko are in a whole other level, of course, with Kaido being able to one-shot Luffy. But here's the problem, if Kaido is this strong then why didn't he murdered the rest of the Yonko at this point? Something might be preventing him from doing this, and we can't assume it's an Ancient Weapon or something like that. So it must be because all of the Yonko might be comparable between each other. Kaido feared an all-out war between his crew and Linlin's, even when she brought just one Yonko Commander with her.

I'm not arguing that Kaido isn't the strongest character in the verse (currently), just saying that inflating him to be massively above the other characters would tie him to incredible amounts of PIS for his character.

In the Ace's novel there's a dialogue that who'd win between Kaido and Shirohige and the answer is uncertain. Sure, this might be disproved as well, or argued that his doesn't come from Oda, but it was supervised by Oda and I really doubt he'd let something like this slip away with no actual support.

 

[Dr.Fix]

@Calaca: The novel explicitly says Whitebeard is the better pirate (Piracy) but Kaido would be the one to win in a staright up fight. I do not know where you're getting the "uncertain" part from. Maybe you should post details.

>>assuming that this would make him vastly below the other Yonko is a non-sense. They are all comparable since he clashed with Shanks, the guy who stopped the war with no opposition from anyone, not even Sakazuki or Kurohige.

Stop insulting other people/arguments. Oddly enough the point about Shanks actually works against Whitebeard since if he were as strong as he was when medicated he should have been able to stop the war as easily as Shanks.

If he were as strong as BM even Old he would have been able to no-sell most-all their attacks.

If he were as strong as Kaido he would have no sold all their attacks and probably one-shot most everyone.

Old+Sick+Taken off his 24 hr meds+Stabbed by Squard (Who always gets forgotten)+Heart attack mid fight before an Admiral (the strongest of them) was able to damage him. Then WB still walked it off, taking hundreds of of hits including Kizaru and soem more from Akainu and he still two-shot him.

As I said, I'm open to Top tiers (Yonko, FA, etc) being likely 6-C when healthy, which whitebeard clearly was not.

In just about any other verse and one of these criteria would clealry exempt WB from scaling under the rules of non-viable power scaling found on the scaling page. For all of them together to be ignored put's a rather negative light on OP standards.

 

[Ugarik]

Actually Damage3245's Oven's calc uses radians for the angular size formula insted of degrees:

Distance 1: 45.53*851/[56*2tan(70/2 deg)] = 494.06 m

Distance 2: 10.42*467/[26*2tan(70/2 deg)] = 133.65 m

Total distance: 494.06+133.65 = 627.71 m

Volume: (4/3*pi*627.71^3)/2 = 518007152 m^3

Mass: 518007152*997 = 516453130544 kg (density of water is actually 997 kg/m^3)

Energy: 516453130544*70*4186 = 1.51331096*10^17 J - 36.165 Megatons (City level)

 

[Damage3245]

@Ugarik, Calaca has updated my calc for Oven's feat here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Calaca_Vs/One_Piece_Calcs_Mashup#Oven.27s_Hot_Sea_Hell

So it is that version that needs to be updated.

 

[Ercosore]

I still think the admirals should scale to Fujitora´s meteor, even if they don´t directly scale to him it wouldn´t make sense for his meteors to be far above them.

 

[Damage3245]

I still think the admirals should scale to Fujitora´s meteor, even if they don´t directly scale to him it wouldn´t make sense for his meteors to be far above them.

Why would it not make sense? Fujitora has never used a meteor against them and has no reason to.

 

[Ugarik]

Ups it seems Calaca's calc has the same mistake

 

[The_Calaca]

I'll update the blog with the correction, then. Guess above baseline 7-B.

 

[Ugarik]

Distance 1: 29.745*851/[56*2tan(70/2 deg) = 322.77

Distance 2: 6.874*467/[26*2tan(70/2 deg) = 88.17

Total: 322.77 + 88.17 = 410.94 m

Energy via qube square law: 36.165*(410.94/627.71)**3 = 10.14 Megatons (City level)

 

[The_Calaca]

Fixed and called it.

 

[Ercosore]

I still think the admirals should scale to Fujitora´s meteor, even if they don´t directly scale to him it wouldn´t make sense for his meteors to be far above them.

Why would it not make sense? Fujitora has never used a meteor against them and has no reason to.

Look, I know that scalling characters by title is not optimal, but would you actually argue that Fujitora has attacks that are far stronger than the other admirals? Again I know this is a weak reasoning, but I just find hard to believe that one of the admirals is far above the others based on their portrayal.

 

[Damage3245]

Look, I know that scalling characters by title is not optimal, but would you actually argue that Fujitora has attacks that are far stronger than the other admirals? Again I know this is a weak reasoning, but I just find hard to believe that one of the admirals is far above the others based on their portrayal.

It is a very specific kind of attack that no other character in the series can replicate - aside from hypothetically Blackbeard since he's the only other person with gravity powers.

 

[Dr.Fix]

. . . .

It is a very specific kind of attack that no other character in the series can replicate - aside from hypothetically Blackbeard since he's the only other person with gravity powers.
On that note do you know if anyone has ever calc the gravity/energy it would take to do what BB did to that towne he fought Ace on?

 

[CinCameron20]

@Fix - Not sure if any reliable size scaling was used for that island, and we'd probably only get Small City Level (after dividing the value by 2 since the resulting explosion was applied by both BB and Ace). Unless those large rock structures/mountains are larger than I remember, it's not above a tier 7 display.

 

[CinCameron20]

I'd probably be against scaling Fujitora's meteorites to the Admirals due to it being an outside source, but there's two key issues that are keeping me neutral, but leaning towards scaling them:

1) Fujitora spams meteorite showers. He does this 3 times on-panel, possibly more depending on how the off-panel fight with Law went, so to assume that he would not be capable of doing something comparable on what's basically a "regular" attack for him, is indeed strange. Hell, the only time he didn't summon meteorites in any fight was against Luffy, as he was clearly not trying to destroy the island (which begs the question why he brought meteorites onto Dressrosa in the first place knowing full well it would do harm to the citizens and country itself >_>), and was conflicted with capturing Luffy from the start.

2) Doflamingo's Bir--shot by Damage

• But really, if Doflamingo's threads (his own creation, not an outside force, just saying) could withstand the impact of the meteorites (Not just the largest one, but all half a dozen that are seen coming down, a couple with comparative KE striking some milliseconds after), it is illogical to assume that the Admirals and Yonko could not do the same.

• • @Damage - we could honestly argue about the cage at some other time. I'm sure both of us are annoyed with the topic and only want to bring it up when it is actually relevant.

Again, I'm mostly neutral, but those two points keep me from believing that the higher tiers are unable to scale to the meteorite.

 

[Damage3245]

I will say that your point about Fujitora spamming meteors does make me excited to see Fujitora's future fights to see if he uses them again and if we can get some legit calcs of characters destroying or tanking meteors.

 

[Dr.Fix]

@Cin I was actually refering to the gravity used to suck in and compress the towne. I still appreciate the response though.

Well if Fugi spams the meteors so much I say wait till someone actually gets hit by one of them. Shouldn't be a long wait with him fighting the revs right now. I'm not against 6-C OP but we need to apply actual scaling as opposed to argument from beleif.

 

[Adam_of_darkness]

1) Fujitora spams meteorite showers. He does this 3 times on-panel, possibly more depending on how the off-panel fight with Law went, so to assume that he would not be capable of doing something comparable on what's basically a "regular" attack for him, is indeed strange. Hell, the only time he didn't summon meteorites in any fight was against Luffy, as he was clearly not trying to destroy the island (which begs the question why he brought meteorites onto Dressrosa in the first place knowing full well it would do harm to the citizens and country itself >_>), and was conflicted with capturing Luffy from the start.

IIRC Doffy and others were at the top of palace which Pica elevated 2 km above ground. Fuji could have easily crashed the meteor and elevate the destroyed chunks of both meteor and palace so it does not harm people on the ground. Not like it is out of his ability, we already saw he can do that stuff

 

[The_Calaca]

Cin's point remembered me that we should discuss about if the Birdcage's Durability should scale to the combined AP of the meteors considering the almost inexistent timeframe between each other.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't think that they should to be honest. The Birdcage was only in contact with a small fraction of the meteors' surfaces, and there is no noticeable effect on the meteors travel that the Birdcage caused over than dividing the meteors into chunks.