• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

One Piece General Revisions Part 2: East Blue to Enies Lobby Edition

Well. It's confirmed.

This calc provides MHS ratings to the weakest Strawhats while this calc provides an even higher rating inside the MHS to the Monster Trio and those comparable to them.

But the main guest here is this calc puting Kalifa as MHS+ and with her the rest of the whole verse.

And as Damage said before during the Earth's revisions, if the MHS+ makes a comeback so would the Relativistic with it. Vivre Card Databook made it easier. And we've got more feats with MHS and one with MHS+ not too far away. It's far more consistent than the jump between Mach 271 and 1500+.
 
In regards to Robin's profile, I have some suggestions about some parts of it that should be changed.

Currently, the justification for her having Small City level is 'Easily defeated Yama, and should be on par, or stronger than Mr. 1 and Mr. 2'. I think the last part should be replaced by 'Comparable to the Monster Trio'. For one thing, it makes it a lot easier to tell where Robin stood power-wise during that point in the story. But the main reason is that in the Skypiea Arc she was put in the group forbidden to blow Gan Fall's whistle and call for help along with Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji. Also, Zoro threatened her twice with his sword during her first two appearances on the Going Merry, and twice Robin easily disarmed him.

Next is Robin's Speed. I've been wondering if her Hypersonic rating is right or not. The explanation for her being that fast is 'Kept up with Yama'. Yet back in Alabasta, Robin easily reacted to and incapacitated a bloodlusted Pell when he charged at her, and he moves so fast that he's practically invisible. She also dodged a swipe from High Hypersonic Crocodile, who was serious about killing her. And, along with Zoro and co., she dodged a lighting bolt from Enel's Raigo in Chapter 295. Now I could be wrong, which why I leave all the calcs stuff to the experts, but she just seems faster than Hypersonic.
 
I rather prefer her AP coming from being comparable to the Monster Trio or at least stronger than the Coward Trio.

Regarding the speed with the accepted Usopp and Nami's feats we have the bare minimum for Skypiea's characters rated at MHS. Robin logically scales to that.
 
So this does mean that Yama is MHS as well? The reason I ask is because I'm interested in creating a page for him. Probably as soon as this weekend or next week.
 
Yama barely did anything considerable (just a speed feat rated as Mach 5 IIRC) and he fought Robin who wasn't going all out at first and she later stomped him.

So no. He shouldn't scale to Robin.
 
Not sure how to feel about Kalifa's feat yet tbh. It may be an outlier (don't jump on me by saying characters were MHS during the Skypeia arc, because I'm not entirely sure about those either).
 
Damage, there are 3 solid MHS feats from Usopp, Zoro and Nami (4 to be more precise but it could be argue its validity) back in Skypiea, i doubt Kalifa's feat can be consider an outlier.
 
Regarding Kalifa though, there was a moment later in the fight when she was hit directly be a lightning bolt that she could see was charging up. Here she is seeing it in front of her (having enough time to realize what it is), and here is her being hit by it.

If she had MHS+ combat speed or MHS+ reactions, you'd expect her to block it or dodge it like she supposedly did before, but she didn't do anything at all.

That's why I'm skeptical about giving her MHS+ ratings based on one feat.
 
And how many times in fictional series we characters get hit by attacks/things that are in theory much slower than them?

Kalifa's case is PIS since in the previous arc even the slowest characters had be capable to consistently react and dodge lightning bolts.
 
Well, one man's PIS is another man's outlier :p

Since this could potentially mean huge changes, I'd rather be certain than not so I'll do some additional research for it.
 
Damage3245 said:
Regarding Kalifa though, there was a moment later in the fight when she was hit directly be a lightning bolt that she could see was charging up. Here she is seeing it in front of her (having enough time to realize what it is), and here is her being hit by it.

If she had MHS+ combat speed or MHS+ reactions, you'd expect her to block it or dodge it like she supposedly did before, but she didn't do anything at all.

That's why I'm skeptical about giving her MHS+ ratings based on one feat.
Click to expand...
Being able to block lightnings doesn't make you always able to do so. She was being outsmarted by Nami and the difference between lightning speed and Kalifa's is almost unexistent.

What Stefano said is correct. We don't downgrade Jojo's reaction speed (MFTL) just because sometimes they are tagged by bullets from regular guns.

>Kalifa's DF

In order to transmutate people whe waves her hands over the body. And making bubbles is not the same than making soap.
 
> In order to transmutate people whe waves her hands over the body. And making bubbles is not the same than making soap.

But the feat in question is her shielding herself from the lightning bolt. Where is the evidence she needed to move her arms to do so?

Here is her before the lightning bolt.

Here is her after the lightning bolt.

I see no evidence of movement on her part.
 
She waves her hands to use her ability in a lesser effect. Making a barrier requires her to use the same movement but in a larger scale cause it's a solid aplication of the ability.

And even then the calc is a lowball. She protected herself from the lightning in a whole and if I calc the distance the result is around Mach 4500.

If we discard the hand movement we can use the reaction time which is massively bigger than that. And before you call it outlier aswell remember that we have some Sub Rel and Rel feats even Pre TS. Much more than you think which makes you think that the verse should be Sub Rel.
 
Just because part of her ability involves the usage of her hands doesn't mean every application of her DF is done the same way.

From what I can tell, she saw Nami preparing the Thunderbolt Tempo, and made a soap/bubble barrier around herself before she was hit.

The fact that she was later hit directly by the same kind of lightning bolt leads me to think that she is not typically a lightning-timer.

I know about some of the supposed Sub Rel and Rel feats Pre-Timeskip. Some of these are likely outliers and some of these probably aren't.
 
Chapter 408 page 5. Kalifa moves and control the bubbles with hands movements. Two of the applications requires her to use hands. Chapter 411 page 9. Same thing.

Call outliers everything you want but we have more Sub Rel feats than anything else even before Kizaru's first introduction.
 
And she being tagged by lightnings isn't a good argument. As I said, Nami outsmarted her and took her out of surprise.

You could argue about she didn't dodged the lightning balls but at that moment she was allarmed. She didn't knew which one was real and was scared about it.
 
> Call outliers everything you want but we have more Sub Rel feats than anything else even before Kizaru's first introduction.

Well, I can't speak concretely about them without evaluating them on a case-by-case basis which feels like a topic that should be handled when we do the Kizaru feats evaluation after the databook comes out.

All I know for this feat is that I don't think Kalifa moved her arms after the lightning bolt started moving.
 
>Moving hands before the lightning is fired

That would imply that Nami saw her doing so which is debunked with her confidence about tagging Kalifa. She was sirprised about the soap barrier.

I think that's enough evidence.
 
I never said she moved her hands before the lightning is fired.

I think she didn't move her hands at all.
 
She moves her hands in order to use her DF. There's no instance where she used it just standing still with thought-based attacks.

And without moving her hands she's still lightning-timer with massive bigger speed. Even more considering I used the total distance instead of the distance Between Kalifa and the cloud.
 
As I said earlier, moving her hands if a part of her DF. That doesn't imply she has to do it for everything:

For example, Oven can heat up things that he touches with his hands, but he can also transfer heat just by looking at something as seen when he glared at Pekom's gun and it burst into flames.

And as seen here,Kalifa dispels the soap-bubble shield without waving her arms around. I see no reason to assume she had to wave her arms around her body to create the shield.
 
First, we have more instances where she moves her hands (i'd say every single one). Second, Oven's DF is far different from Kalifa's because the latter uses something that isn't physical at all. Third, we don't see her hands until the shield is out. And even then we could say that it's destroyed due to the lightning.

And again, if we discard the hand movement nothing'd change. The result is even bigger as I pointed above.
 
1) We see bubbles appear around her without her moving her arms to those places.


2) It's the principle that matters, not Oven specifically. We see him do things with his hands and without his hands.


3) It showed no signs of being damaged by the lightning.


> And again, if we discard the hand movement nothing'd change. The result is even bigger as I pointed above.

How exactly would the result for her reactions be even bigger than her movements?

Are we currently assuming she moves way faster than she is capable of reacting or something?
 
Because I used the total distance as a lowball. The final result is between Mach 4500-5500.

And iirc the time a lightning takes to travel 2.51m is in microseconds below the bare minimum for MHS+.
 
So you're saying that you're currently lowballing the calc because Kalifa moved in response to the lightning, but if she didn't actually move during the feat then you'd highball the calc and get a higher result?

EDIT: I'm pretty sure I'm just misunderstanding this.
 
1) That's for the summoning and not for the control.

2) It's a false equivalency. Kalifa moves her hands in order to manipulate the bubbles.

3) I said this earlier. What's your point?

I wouldn't highball it just to get the result. I'd do it to prove my point. Even using the total distance the final result would be in the MHS+ ballpark. Maxdistance is 2.51m and minimum 0.61m.

Kalifa manipulates bubbles moving her hands. She did the shield after the lightning was fired or Nami wouldn't be so confident about that.

Assuming just one application of her DF doesn't use hands while the rest of them does is a wrong assumption. And It's even worse given the nature of the movement where she needed bubbles solid enough to create a solid shield when she uses her hands to create a bubble sheep body.

So you're saying that she doesn't need her hands to use a better application of her powers than a thinier shield with the use of her hands.
 
> Kalifa manipulates bubbles moving her hands

Yes, she does. However, she can also create bubbles from her entire body.

Simplest explanation is she simply created the soap-bubble shield from her entire body at once when she realized that lightning was going to be sent down to her.

At best, this is a Reaction Speed feat for Kalifa. Not a Movement or Combat Speed feat.
 
There's proof more than enough to assume he moved her hands than she doesn't.

She creates bubbles not soap. That application requires more effort because isn't the same material. Solidifying bubbles > manipulating bubbles > creating bubbles.

And even if that scales to her reaction time the rest of the verse scales above that. Luffy blitzed Blueno even using Soru and Blueno scales above Kalifa.
 
> She creates bubbles not soap

The two are effectively interchangeable. She's a Soap Human that ate the Bubble-Bubble fruit.

She can manipulate bubbles, and create bubbles, and solidify them into soap, sure. Not all of that requires the use of her hands, and there no official source supporting that other than conjecture.

We don't see her move her arms before, during or after the feat... So why even assume she moved them in the first place?
 
No, the bubbles are the product of the DF. She's not a soap woman but Bubblewoman.

Every time she uses her powers she moves her hands. Assuming she didn't just to say my point is wrong is the real assumption here.

In any case the closest DF case is Galdino's Doru Doru which requires him to move her hands to manipulate the wax.
 
> No, the bubbles are the product of the DF. She's not a soap woman but Bubblewoman.

The manga uses 'Soap Person'.

> Assuming she didn't just to say my point is wrong is the real assumption here.

I'm not assuming it to say your point is wrong. I'm saying that it is the more reasonable conclusion.

Look, bubbles aren't just created where she moves her hands. They're appearing on her legs, at her elbows, behind her, etc.

She literally says on that panel; "I can create bubbles from anywhere on my body".

Given that the bar of soap she creates is just a mass of bubbles that surrounded her body, there is no reason not to think that she just created the bubbles from her entire body at once and surrounded herself with it.
 
>Soap woman

The wikia agree. Fair enough.

>Conclusion

No isn't. You're stretching this. You're basically saying that the most complex application of her powers don't require hands movements when everything else do.

>Creation

I said above that she creates bubbles from her body but manipulates them with hands movements. Stop bringing the same point I already explained.

She can create the bubbles from her entire body but to make it solid she need more than just thoughts. If she could do this (which he doesn't) then moving her hands in order to do easier movements would be pointless. If she needs her hands to manipulate the bubbles then it's not a wrong assumption and it's the safest possibility.

At this point you're just disagreeing with me agreeing. I've shown proof enough already and prolonging this is pointless.

There's just one instance where we don't see her moving her hands but in every other instance she does.
 
> She can create the bubbles from her entire body but to make it solid she need more than just thoughts.

That's the thing, this is just conjecture. There are no statements or official information that proves she needs to wave her arms around to make a solid soap shield around herself.

> If she could do this (which he doesn't) then moving her hands in order to do easier movements would be pointless. If she needs her hands to manipulate the bubbles then it's not a wrong assumption and it's the safest possibility.

You're saying that because she moves her hands around to move the bubbles around the room, she must therefore requires her hands to move around to make a soap shield around her body? Despite not seeing her arms move at all when that shield is made?

I think we will just have to agree to disagree, because nothing you've said has convinced me that she moved her hands around her to make the shield.
 
Your assumption say that she doesn't need hands movements to use the best possible application of her power when she uses hands to manipulate the bubbles. That's assumes more than me.

We don't see the shield being made. That's a moot point. She did it after the lightning was fired so that's even more proof to say this is a lowball.

And nothing you've said has convinced me that she doesn't need her hands to make it. Again, there's Galdino who needs her hands to use his wax. That case is closer than Oven's.
 
Look, I'd rather focus on the Post-Timeskip One Piece scaling and tiers which still needs to be figured out.

Can we drop this discussion until we settle the Post-Timeskip stuff and do a thread purely on Speed ratings for the One Piece verse?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

KingTempest
  • Locked
Enies Lobby and Thriller Bark Merge
2
Replies
47
Views
2K
KingTempest
KingTempest
Nami_Kami
  • Locked
Slight Alabasta revisions:
Replies
12
Views
986
Damage3245
Damage3245
RanaProGamer
Usopp and Chopper's Missing Keys
Replies
7
Views
474
That_moron2
That_moron2
Eseseso
Enies Lobby CRT
Replies
33
Views
2K
Nierre
Nierre
Eseseso
  • Locked
Pre-TS Base Luffy revision.
Replies
26
Views
2K
LordGriffin1000
LordGriffin1000
Back
Top