GodlyCharmander
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One Piece General Discussion: Elbaph
- Thread starter KingTempest
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- one piece
GodlyCharmander
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Again, coating.He was very clear about the ones who he was talking about.
That's just Kizaru's personality. Kizaru could not overpower Old Rayleigh, period. Thus, he is relative to Kizaru.
"Watch, as the poor Oden stan contradicts himself without even thinking about it"
When you stop training for 5 years, you are rusty. Not my fault you can't comprehend this. That was literally the whole point of the hostage situation.
It would have pierced Zoro's durability regardless.No, this is One Piece, where characters are often defeated because they were distracted.
"Distracted > Haxxed by stronger character.
How does that relate to Durability, you ask? Well... s..shut up!!"
Distraction does not weaken your durability.
So Kaido scales to Oden regardless, stop wasting my time.
No it isn't, you wish it were, and context didn't matter, but it absolutely does. Two scenes with different contexts, one of them is an outlier due to its context. It's not that hard to understand.
Theendzero13
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about this map right here , did the mugiwaras take right or left when they entered the grand line
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He never talked about coating. He said that there are only a scant few capable of fighting him and imagined Rocks, Roger, Prime Whitebeard, Oden, and Shanks. Stop twisting what he said around.
Kizaru wasn't even serious. He literally used no kicks or lasers against Rayleigh. He created a sword made out of light and stepped down to Rayleigh's level to have a swordsmanship duel with him. And Rayleigh was quickly out of breath, meaning if it went on, Kizaru would have massacred him.
"Watch, as the toxic Rayleigh fanboy makes up his own headcanons and denies not only Kaido's words, but also Oda's words.
"It would have pierced Zoro's durability regardless because I say so".
Says you. Not my fault you rely on answering like a manchild to my comment and ignore that many characters in the story were defeated not because they were overpowered, but because they were distracted and cheap-shotted. Kaku, Kizaru, Aokiji, etc, mention so. Even Big Mom was hurt by glass when she was emotionally weak even though cannon balls can't even hurt her.
He scales to a rusty Oden. And you're the one who came at me, so stop playing the victim role now.
"One of them is an outlier and one of them isn't. Why? Because I say so"
Every logic of a Rayleigh fan, just like how your logic of Prime Rayleigh being Yonko level is "Prime Rayleigh is Yonko Level. Why? Because I say so".
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I don’t even know what I’m looking at if I’m being honest
GodlyCharmander
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Heeey, now we got to the part where your frustrated ass calls the opposing side toxic.
Nah, I'm out. You also seem to blantantly live in your own little world, where you get to ignore any reasoning I eloquently explain, and then act like it was never there in the first place. I'm not in for this kind of discussion, it's like debating with a literal 5 year old, or a brick wall. You also keep referring to me as a "Rayleigh fan", meaning you just have something personal with anyone who dares like the character, although I am far from a Rayleigh "fan", lmao. (Luffy mid diffs this mf)
You're sad.
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Right. It says the path they took
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Calm down, no need for aggression/hostility
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Monke is always right
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You're the one who started this by calling me a stan, but sure, keep playing the victim role
.Are you being serious? Who is the one here who twists Kaido's words? Who is the one here who ignored that Morgan managed to injure Garp because he was distracted? You. I've been using the manga and SBS facts here this whole time while you come with lies such as "Kaido talked about coating" and "Old Rayleigh=Kizaru". You're pathetic.
Again with you being a hypocrite. You ignore Kaido's words, Oda's words, the whole distraction thing, claim that Prime Rayleigh>admirals without any proof, and then got the nerve to say that debating with me is like debating with a brick wall even though I've been using the facts the entire time while you created your own headcanons that you claim to be facts.
1.I have nothing against Rayleigh.
2.You're the one who called me a stan.
3.You're the one who overrates Prime Rayleigh who is featless and was never treated to be on the level of those in Kaido's Top 5.
Ok?
Now it's getting personal. I'm done. Just because you're being proven wrong, doesn't mean you gotta insult someone on the personal level.
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So... Both sides are wrong
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I still think that Rayleigh was just joking at that time, he did become weak but I don't think he was that weak he even gave Kizaru a wound even though he only intended to protect Zoro showing that Rayleigh is still superior, if he was serious he could have fatally injured Kizaru with Coc coating or possibly kill him
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He said that he wanted to help the Strawhats if he could. Why would he be joking around at such a time? He literally panted too as Kizaru was putting pressure on him.
I never said that Rayleigh is weak. What wound are you talking about? He gave Kizaru a tiny scratch on the cheek that was then already gone when the fight was over.
Rayleigh wanted to go help the others, he said so himeslf, his intention was clearly not just stalling Kizaru, he gave it his all and there's absolutely nothing that happend in the fight that showed that Rayleigh is superior.
...No comment. You really think Rayleigh was playing/joking around at such a serious moment even though he himself stated that he wants to go help the others. If he could've fatally injured Kizaru, he would've done so. We don't even know if he has CoC coating and him killing Kizaru sounds like a bad joke to me.
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Rayleigh inflicts a wound on Kizaru as Kizaru chases Zoro.
If Rayleigh wanted, he could have seriously injured Kizaru then, even Rayleigh seemed to be faster than Kizaru.
*Rayleigh is Faster
Why not ? Rayleigh was in a situation where he could not injure or kill Kizaru because it would only make him chased by the Marines, while the situation was still under control where no one was threatening the lives of SHP members other than Kizaru, of course Rayleigh would choose to restrain Kizaru, also do you think that Buggy was at Whitebeard's level just because WB said it so when Ace was about to be executed.
And why didn't Kizaru catch Rayleigh back then?, it was obvious that he couldn't afford to do that, because he is weaker
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Wish I could remember. All I know is, Alabasta was one of their first destinations, and that was in the grand line.
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Kizaru was an open target there by using Yata no Kagami. And he only gave Kizaru a tiny scratch on the cheek that was already gone when the fight was over.Rayleigh inflicts a wound on Kizaru as Kizaru chases Zoro.
1.According to what could have Rayleigh seriously injured Kizaru if he wanted to? Pure headcanon. He wanted to go help the others so he had no reason to hold back.
2.He never seemed to be faster than Kizaru.
Also no.
Because he said that he wants to go help the Strawhats? So him holding back like you claim, makes no sense. Because if he was as strong as you claim, he could've fatally injured Kizaru and then went on to help the Strawhats, but Rayleigh had to give it his all to just stall Kizaru.
Huh?
Same reason why he didn't capture any of the supernovae.
He was sent out to retaliate against the Strawhat Pirates who had attacked two World Nobles.
Killing luffy was Kizaru's main objective and since he escaped, Kizaru left since capturing Rayleigh would require more effort.
Sure...you wish it was like that.
GodlyCharmander
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And anger from the guy.
GodlyCharmander
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Also, didn't I finish this whole discussion? This isn't fit for this thread at ALL.
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Anyways, is there any explanation to how Oden cut the Mountain God in half without killing it? Read somewhere that he cut it so cleanly in half that he cut its cells in half or something like that so that both severed parts were still alive and able to be put back together. Was this just something Oda added that shouldn't be taken seriously or...? Cause what would that even labelled as? It's weird that he was able to do something as ridiculous as that when he was only 18. I know that the SBS apparently states that his Nitoryu is the greatest sword style, but did the SBS mention anything about his "cutting the Mountain God in half without killing it" feat? I mean, there were also statements in the latest SBS like Oda hinting that Togen Shirataki is a hao coated attack:
...which makes no sense because he surely didn't have coc coating when he was 18, right?
...which makes no sense because he surely didn't have coc coating when he was 18, right?
GodlyCharmander
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Oh hell nah, this is a flat-out confirmation! Which SBS is that?
Also, we don't go with Argument from Incredulity, if Oda said he had it, then he had it. (Also, ain't Luffy 19? Oden is more gifted than Luffy by a long shot)
GodlyCharmander
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Also, King Kong Gun still doesn't have a calc on the profile. Made this CRT to change that, if y'all are interested.
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I'm partly asking this because if Oden had coc coating when he was 18 then 1)he and Whitebeard would have split the sky when they clashed and 2)Oden wouldn't have been surprised when Roger and WB clashed. It makes no sense for Oden to have known coc coating so soon and it still wouldn't explain how the hell he cut the Mountain God so cleanly in half that he 1)didn't kill it and 2)didn't kill any of the people that the Mountain God devoured.
GodlyCharmander
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Fair points.
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Except Oda already explained this in SBS 100
Oden basically cut the Mountain God so cleaning that the creature's body didn't recognize it was cut, and was reattached when slapped back together. Don't believe Oda mentioned any CoC involved, since Oden talking about Togen Totsuka (or was it Shirataki that cut Kaido?) to the scabbards was a very Ryuou centered conversation.
Though It's not far fetched that it was a Zoro situation, where Zoro didn't KNOW he used he used CoC with Ashura, but did. At this point it seems only CoC can "scar" Kaido and permanently damage his body.
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Garp was literally sleeping when Morgan slashed him and it didn't even wake him up ... this outlier is not at all comparable to Kaido getting the drop on Oden
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1. Hey, will post-Udon Zoro still have a 3x multiplier for his Asura form? If so, then perhaps we should discuss whether those like Hybrid Kaido scale to Ashura Zoro during Zoro's fighting against Kaido (since if that's the case, those like Hybrid Kaido would also get a 3x multiplier).
2. Just did some scaling math, and assuming that this calc gets accepted (which it really should, it makes a lot of sense scaling-wise and the calc itself looks solid), then I already did some scaling bits:
And now for some scalings that aren't just for the Beginning of the timeskip:
Thoughts?
2. Just did some scaling math, and assuming that this calc gets accepted (which it really should, it makes a lot of sense scaling-wise and the calc itself looks solid), then I already did some scaling bits:
- Beginning of timeskip Gear 4 Strongest Attacks: 210 gigatons (because that's the value of the calc above, duh).
- Beginning of timeskip Gear 4 Luffy: 118.125 gigatons (King Kong Gun momentarily struggled for a small time before breaking 16 strings, while Gear 4 Luffy easily broke 9 just by transforming, so normal Gear 4 should be about 9/16 of the power of Strongest Attacks like the calced KKG)
- Beginning of timeskip Gear 3 Luffy: 52.5 gigatons (Should be about 1/4 of the power of Strongest Attacks, and is funnily enough just over baseline 6-C+)
- Beginning of timeskip Gear 2 Luffy with Busoshoku: 29.53 gigatons (About 1/4 of normal Gear 4, since I don't know whether Gear 4 is 4x normal Gear 2 or 4x Gear 2nd with Busoshoku so I decided to be safe and "lowball", since Gear 3 should probably be above Gear 2nd with Busoshoku)
- Beginning of timeskip Gear 2 Luffy (no Busoshoku): 14.766 gigatons (Should be 1/2 of Gear 2nd w/Busoshoku)
- Beginning of timeskip Base Luffy: 7.38 gigatons (Should be 1/2 of normal Gear 2nd)
And now for some scalings that aren't just for the Beginning of the timeskip:
- Post-Katakuri Gear 3rd: 118.125 gigatons (Equal to Awakened Katakuri who is Equal to Beginning of Timeskip Gear 4)
- Post Katakuri Gear 4: Probably 265.178 gigatons (Should still have the 9/16 "multiplier" from its Strongest Attacks)
- Post-Katakuri Gear 4 Strongest Attacks: 472.5 (4x Gear 3rd)
Thoughts?
GodlyCharmander
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No.
Base Kaido >> Base Zoro
Hybrid Kaido ~ Asura Zoro.
Meaning the game between Base Kaido and Hybrid Kaido in unquantifiably lower than 3x.
No it didn't, read the manga, cut the crap with the Anime.
That's a lowballed multiplier, you cannot backscale this.
Backscaling off a lowballed multiplier is not permitted.
Why?
Why?
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Are you sure? Because during the fight against Kaido, Zoro without going into Asura did the following:
1. Alongside Killer, drew small blood from Base Kaido, and his power was complimented by Kaido
2. Big Mom told Full Zoan Kaido to dodge his Flying Dragon Blaze.
3. Overpowered Kaido's Dragon Twister with his own Black Rope Dragon Twister and cut his scales with the same technique, making him spit up blood
Bro, the scaling page literally says that Luffy broke 9 of them in Gear 4
Really? Because we're already kind of doing that for Fairy Tail (since the Dragon Force and Fire Dragon King Mode multipliers are at least 4x but probably higher yet we let the base forms of people with those abilities backscale to about 1/4 of the power despite them being >= 4x).
Actually, I just checked and I made an error by misreading on the scaling page, so I withdraw the Gear 2nd and Luffy parts.
GodlyCharmander
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That doesn't mean Zoro is as strong as Kaido.
Because Emma draws Haoshoku Haki out of the user, we know that now.
Cool, Kaido is still stronger than Zoro in a 1v1.
KKG never struggled with strings, I don't know where you got that from.
Two wrongs don't make a right. Also, I don't really care, this actually gives G3 the highest end possible, because we are using the smaller gap possible.
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Yeah One Piece isn't as well off as Fairy Tail sadly because of the lack of multipliers and clear cut scaling (If OP was allowed to do some of the scaling tech's that Fairy Tail has, the scaling would be sweet).
Fairy Tail also gets a bit more leniency than OP.
Fairy Tail also gets a bit more leniency than OP.
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Struggled is admittedly a strong word, rather it was marginally harder for him to snap 16 strings than normal Gear 4 did with 9. It's on that scaling revision page the wiki is now using for OP.
I'm sorry but what does this mean exactly?
GodlyCharmander
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No, because the factor that gives Luffy this value isn't Physical Strength, it's Ryou, and Haoshoku, both which doesn't get multiplier by G4
Eminiteable
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Wrong, and that attack wasn't a haoshoku coated attack. Also what does that even have to do with what he just said.
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Any source? Like where did you get the SBS 100 info from? How does Oden cutting the Mountain God so cleanly in half that it didn't recognize it was cut and that's why it's parts could be reattached back together, make sense? Wouldn't him severing its cells with the cut make more sense?
It was Totsuka that cut Kaido but again, Oda's comment about Shirataki implies that CoC was involved when he cut the Mountain God in half.
Would make sense.
1.Why are you bringing a topic back that already ended?
2.He still was able to slash his chest open even though he's fodder...
Yes, it kinda is. The whole point is that Morgan was able to slash Garp's chest open because (you guessed it right) he was caught off guard.
The matter to how he was caught off guard (distracted, sleeping while standing) doesn't matter. The whole point is that Morgan was only able to slash Garp's chest open because he was caught off guard, while Kaido only got the drop on Oden because Oden was 1)rusty, 2)already injured, and 3)caught off guard and distracted by thinking that his son was taken hostage.
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GodlyCharmander
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That's the only reason to dodge it, as any other attacks from Zoro posed no major risks. Zoro isn't as strong as Base Kaido, otherwise he should be able to 1v1 him, and come on top due skill.
GodlyCharmander
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"Marco = An Admiral" is incorrect. He is slightly below, as he cannot overpower.
It's not marginally weaker to the point he can't damage him, don't get me wrong, but weaker enough that a straight battle is guaranteed to go to Kaido
