One Piece General Discussion: Elbaph

[Mr.Cinos15]

Using the Katakuri fight as a basis, Snakeman performed better than G2nd with haki, but not as impressive strength wise as G3rd and Boundman. This fight though seems to show Snakeman as superior to G3rd.

Also, while G2nd likely isn't that much stronger than base in the current fight, speed wise it's almost able to blitz Kaido based off the kick near the end of 1037.

 

[Eseseso]

How is Snakeman below Gear 3rd in strength?

And Snakeman matched Awakened Katakuri, who is >= Dressrosa Arc Gear 4 and equal to Post Whole-Cake Gear 3rd

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

How is Snakeman below Gear 3rd in strength?

And Snakeman matched Awakened Katakuri, who is >= Dressrosa Arc Gear 4 and equal to Post Whole-Cake Gear 3rd

Personally disagree with it but we just needed more proof of it being higher than gear 3rd

 

[SnookB]

How is Snakeman below Gear 3rd in strength?

And Snakeman matched Awakened Katakuri, who is >= Dressrosa Arc Gear 4 and equal to Post Whole-Cake Gear 3rd

L o g i c.
Katakuri easily wrecks G3 Luffy
Snakeman Luffy proceeds to throw hands with an awakened, Block Mochi, all out Katakuri
"Snakeman<< G3"

 

[KobsterHope07]

L o g i c.
Katakuri easily wrecks G3 Luffy
Snakeman Luffy proceeds to throw hands with an awakened, Block Mochi, all out Katakuri
"Snakeman<< G3"

Katakuri did not easily wreck G3 Luffy... at least not in Round 2. Round 2 Luffy matches an Awakened technique like Power Mochi from Katakuri with G3 (891)

And Katakuri did not use any Awakened techniques against Snake Man Luffy from what I recall

 

[SnookB]

Katakuri did not easily wreck G3 Luffy... at least not in Round 2. Round 2 Luffy matches an Awakened technique like Power Mochi from Katakuri with G3 (891)

Overpowered Gear 3 entirely at the beginning of their fight.
And like you said, he clashed G3 Luffy again with Chikara Mochi yet knocked the breath out of G4 boundman with a single chikara Mochi.
Awakening isn't bound to "techniques", it's a state. Katakuri used chikara Mochi against Luffy on the final round, and you see it in a panel during the cut-ins when we get the hours going by. There's no reason for Katakuri to be hitting Snakeman Luffy with any less considering Zankiri and Grilled Mochi are things he did only when he acknowledged Luffy's strength.

 

[KobsterHope07]

Overpowered Gear 3 entirely at the beginning of their fight.
And like you said, he clashed G3 Luffy again with Chikara Mochi yet knocked the breath out of G4 boundman with a single chikara Mochi.
Awakening isn't bound to "techniques", it's a state. Katakuri used chikara Mochi against Luffy on the final round, and you see it in a panel during the cut-ins when we get the hours going by. There's no reason for Katakuri to be hitting Snakeman Luffy with any less considering Zankiri and Grilled Mochi are things he did only when he acknowledged Luffy's strength.

Hmmm, I don't understand, what does Katakuri hitting Snake Man Luffy with Zankiri and Grilled Mochi have to do with Snake Man being above G3, those are durability's feats. There is only one point in their fight where Snake Man Luffy clashed fists with Katakuri iirc, and unlike G3 Luffy with Power Mochi, Snake Man felt pain.

 

[SnookB]

Hmmm, I don't understand, what does Katakuri hitting Snake Man Luffy with Zankiri and Grilled Mochi have to do with Snake Man being above G3, those are durability's feats. There is only one point in their fight where Snake Man Luffy clashed fists with Katakuri iirc, and unlike G3 Luffy with Power Mochi, Snake Man felt pain.

The fact that he can soak up similiar damage to what he can dish out? Luffy isn't a glass cannon after all.
Snake Man SHOWED pain. Luffy in base was tanking chikara Mochi hits even before going snakeman. He just occasionally shows reaction, but that doesn't really mean he's less durable when his fight shows otherwise.

 

[KobsterHope07]

The fact that he can soak up similiar damage to what he can dish out? Luffy isn't a glass cannon after all.
Snake Man SHOWED pain. Luffy in base was tanking chikara Mochi hits even before going snakeman. He just occasionally shows reaction, but that doesn't really mean he's less durable when his fight shows otherwise.

... I would like to think Snake Man Luffy is durable yes but what does this have to do with Snake Man > G3 in strength again

 

[SnookB]

... I would like to think Snake Man Luffy is durable yes but what does this have to do with Snake Man > G3 in strength again

We're not talking G3 in general- we're talking Dressrosa arc G4/Early Whole cake G3. It's just a general comparaison between G3 Being overwhelmed in the first hour of the fight vs Snakeman doing generally better later on.

 

[KobsterHope07]

We're not talking G3 in general- we're talking Dressrosa arc G4/Early Whole cake G3. It's just a general comparaison between G3 Being overwhelmed in the first hour of the fight vs Snakeman doing generally better later on.

Ah I see

 

[Chianli]

Base Luffy < Hybrid Kaido
Gear3 = Hybrid Kaido
Gear4 > Hybrid Kaido
makes more and Alot of Sense to me.

How is G3 make luffy equal to hybrid kaido even though what he does is LITERALLY inflate his limbs and thats it. I hope you mean in terms of AP

 

[Nierre]

How is G3 make luffy equal to hybrid kaido even though what he does is LITERALLY inflate his limbs and thats it. I hope you mean in terms of AP

....what else would he be referring to...?

 

[WrongIdea21]

How is G3 make luffy equal to hybrid kaido even though what he does is LITERALLY inflate his limbs and thats it. I hope you mean in terms of AP

what else?

 

[Tinodesu]

Gear 2 will be the strongest and the coolest form of Luffy.

 

[WrongIdea21]

the strongest

Why? by any means.

 

[Tinodesu]

Why? by any means.

It all because haki

 

[WrongIdea21]

It all because haki

I dont understand why Gear2 is the strongest because of Haki...this guy's wildin', lol.

 

[Tinodesu]

I dont understand why Gear2 is the strongest because of Haki...this guy's wildin', lol.

Because he don't need to make his arm bigger to become stronger

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

L o g i c.
Katakuri easily wrecks G3 Luffy
Snakeman Luffy proceeds to throw hands with an awakened, Block Mochi, all out Katakuri
"Snakeman<< G3"

https://****************/wp-content/uploads/WP-manga/data/manga_617f9817c8904/1a3c4500091c71c5217a4a638ec90f8e/0040-0041.jpg
This is why...

 

[SnookB]

https://****************/wp-content/uploads/WP-manga/data/manga_617f9817c8904/1a3c4500091c71c5217a4a638ec90f8e/0040-0041.jpg
This is why...

You know, by that logic, that ONE SINGLE TIME not being an anti-feat means that base Luffy post-WC should>WC Gear Fourth Luffy for taking Chikara Mochi attacks from awakened Kat during their final exchange?

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

You know, by that logic, that ONE SINGLE TIME not being an anti-feat means that base Luffy post-WC should>WC Gear Fourth Luffy for taking Chikara Mochi attacks from awakened Kat during their final exchange?

Don't argue this with me...

King, emin, Arslan (I think) and more is the ones that was fine for gear 4th snakeman being lower ap than gear 3th

 

[Eseseso]

Since I see that now the 210 gigaton calc has been accepted for Luffy, how would this affect the lower Gears which backscale from this?

Because the scaling page right here says at the very top that Gear 4 is 9/16 of his Strongest Attacks (and it makes next to no sense for Gear 4 to be just 1.1 gigatons when his Strongest Attack is now almost 200x that, otherwise he would've just used his strongest attacks to one-shot Cracker and Katakuri from the get-go since it's so far above High 7-A), putting it at about 118.195 gigatons.

Also, I found a much better way to downscale Gear 2nd + Busoshoku Haki from Gear 4, since we know that Gear 2nd + Busoshoku could barely break one string, putting it at no more than 13.132765 gigatons (Island Level).

Although I'm still not sure how we would be able to determine Gear 2nd without Busoshoku or Base Luffy, while at least his Dressrosa Arc Gear 3 would be at least >= Gear 2nd with Busoshoku (since otherwise there'd be next to no need for Gear 3's power boost), and his post-Katakuri Gear 3 would scale to his Gear 4 like it is currently scaled now.

The only possible solution for Gear 2 without Busoshoku is to backscale from Gear 3rd (which as I said should be >= Gear 2 with Busoshoku), and since Gear 2nd currently scales to about 1/4 of Gear 3's AP (due to the Hody Jones scaling), then that would be about 3.283 gigatons for normal Gear 2 (Large Mountain Level+).

However, I don't know how to find Base Luffy's value, since for some reason this wiki doesn't accept the 4.878x multiplier of Gear 2nd provided by Gear 2nd being >= to Base Lucci who had a power level of 4000 while Base Luffy was >= Blueno who had a power level of 820.

 

[Damage3245]

Since I see that now the 210 gigaton calc has been accepted for Luffy, how would this affect the lower Gears which backscale from this?

We don't backscale the multipliers like that.

 

[SnookB]

Since I see that now the 210 gigaton calc has been accepted for Luffy, how would this affect the lower Gears which backscale from this?

Because the scaling page right here says at the very top that Gear 4 is 9/16 of his Strongest Attacks (and it makes next to no sense for Gear 4 to be just 1.1 gigatons when his Strongest Attack is now almost 200x that, otherwise he would've just used his strongest attacks to one-shot Cracker and Katakuri from the get-go since it's so far above High 7-A), putting it at about 118.195 gigatons.

Also, I found a much better way to downscale Gear 2nd + Busoshoku Haki from Gear 4, since we know that Gear 2nd + Busoshoku could barely break one string, putting it at no more than 13.132765 gigatons (Island Level).

Although I'm still not sure how we would be able to determine Gear 2nd without Busoshoku or Base Luffy, while at least his Dressrosa Arc Gear 3 would be at least >= Gear 2nd with Busoshoku (since otherwise there'd be next to no need for Gear 3's power boost), and his post-Katakuri Gear 3 would scale to his Gear 4 like it is currently scaled now.

The only possible solution for Gear 2 without Busoshoku is to backscale from Gear 3rd (which as I said should be >= Gear 2 with Busoshoku), and since Gear 2nd currently scales to about 1/4 of Gear 3's AP (due to the Hody Jones scaling), then that would be about 3.283 gigatons for normal Gear 2 (Large Mountain Level+).

However, I don't know how to find Base Luffy's value, since for some reason this wiki doesn't accept the 4.878x multiplier of Gear 2nd provided by Gear 2nd being >= to Base Lucci who had a power level of 4000 while Base Luffy was >= Blueno who had a power level of 820.

As far as I know, nothing backscales from KKG. KKG is "at least" 4x Gear Third because it's likely higher than just that, and 4 is the safest number to settle on.
As for Douriki levels, their inconsistency comes from the fact that, for example, Blueno scales as high as he does yet would only scale to 80x-ish times higher than a regular marine. It's unreliable.

 

[Eseseso]

We don't backscale the multipliers like that.

I get not backscaling the 4x multipliers, but not even the "Normal Gear 4 = 9/16 * Strongest Attacks" one?

I mean, neither of them show any real difficulty with the number of strings that they break so it's not like Gear 4 can barely break 9 while KKG can effortlessly break 16 strings (the latter is true but not the former).

I also get not scaling the Gear 2 with Busoshoku to Gear 4 since Gear 2nd with Busoshoku needed multiple hits to break a string while Gear 4 broke 9 of them with no effort.

I just think it doesn't make sense for Gear 4's normal power to be 1/200th of his Strongest Attacks. Otherwise why not just use KKG to one-shot Cracker and Katakuri from the get-go?

As far as I know, nothing backscales from KKG. KKG is "at least" 4x Gear Third because it's likely higher than just that, and 4 is the safest number to settle on.

That makes sense, but now KKG is 2000x the power of Dressrosa Arc Gear 3rd according to our scaling which is a bit of a problem.

As for Douriki levels, their inconsistency comes from the fact that, for example, Blueno scales as high as he does yet would only scale to 80x-ish times higher than a regular marine. It's unreliable.

Ah, that makes sense.

 

[SnookB]

That makes sense, but now KKG is 2000x the power of Dressrosa Arc Gear 3rd according to our scaling which is a bit of a problem.

Just wait until we have to work around Luffy's KKG's scaling after the 6-B tiering for his base/G4 are a thing. That's when the real flood gates of nonsense will open-

 

[Eseseso]

Just wait until we have to work around Luffy's KKG's scaling after the 6-B tiering for his base/G4 are a thing. That's when the real flood gates of nonsense will open-

I thought we agreed that the multipliers didn't apply since Haoshoku doesn't multiply like his physical strength does in G4.

Without Haoshoku his base power is only equal to 7-A Ulti (although his base durability even without Haoshoku is still 6-B)

 

[SnookB]

I thought we agreed that the multipliers didn't apply since Haoshoku doesn't multiply like his physical strength does in G4.

Without Haoshoku his base power is only equal to 7-A Ulti (although his base durability even without Haoshoku is still 6-B)

Yeah, but G4's compression does, doesn't it? It's basically adding Haoshoku to greater force via compression.
And he still scales over the scabbards regardless with G4+Ryuou during round 1, who all scale to 6-B with their combined Togen Totsuka. And maybe Zoro's Enma slash that Big Mom told Kaido to avoid. (We get direct parallels later to Kaido dodging Luffy and getting taunted about knowing it'd hurt)

 

[Damage3245]

I get not backscaling the 4x multipliers, but not even the "Normal Gear 4 = 9/16 * Strongest Attacks" one?

Yes, because that's not a valid multiplier anyway.

 

[Eseseso]

Yeah, but G4's compression does, doesn't it? It's basically adding Haoshoku to greater force via compression.
And he still scales over the scabbards regardless with G4+Ryuou during round 1, who all scale to 6-B with their combined Togen Totsuka. And maybe Zoro's Enma slash that Big Mom told Kaido to avoid. (We get direct parallels later to Kaido dodging Luffy and getting taunted about knowing it'd hurt)

Didn't Pre-Haoshoku Base Luffy do like no damage to Kaido? How would pre-Haoshoku Base Luffy scale above the scabbards? Or Zoro's Enma slash? Kaido only dodged Base Luffy's hits AFTER he got Haoshoku infusion.

Yes, because that's not a valid multiplier anyway.

But it's in the revision thread where all the new scaling was decided.

Also, what would the other Gears scale to then? You know, since it wouldn't make sense for normal Gear 4 to be 0.005% as strong as King Kong Gun.

 

[SnookB]

Didn't Pre-Haoshoku Base Luffy do like no damage to Kaido? How would pre-Haoshoku Base Luffy scale above the scabbards? Or Zoro's Enma slash? Kaido only dodged Base Luffy's hits AFTER he got Haoshoku infusion.

Pre Haoshoku Luffy had Kaido actively dodging at the end of round 1, and Kaido did so while fully aware Luffy could hurt him (which Luffy himself laughed at him for before getting bopped by Ragnarok).

Also, remember- not all Haoshoku infusion is equal. It's an AP amp, but you still have to be capable of contending physical. For example Yamato, who's comparable to G4 Luffy pre-roof battle (since she one shot Ulti, who was about to force Luffy to go G4) used Haoshoku Infusion in her hybrid form and still did very little against Kaido. Even got physically overwhelmed multiple times during their fight.

Base Luffy scales over her by nature of the fact that he took hits from a stronger Kaido and inflicting greater damage. (Knocking Kaido on his back multiple times, and making his eyes go white from impact AFTER Kaido said that he's stronger, and after Luffy said that Kaido's Haki grew stronger as well). There's no clear "AP multiplier" for Haoshoku. You can go anywhere from unquantifiably higher to a potential one-shot multiplier considering it one hit KO'D Luffy on round 1.
And Yamato's case PROVES that greater physical strength makes the haoshoku infusion stronger. There's no reason for that to not apply to Luffy's regular AP with Hao vs G4's compresion based attacks.

 

[Damage3245]

But it's in the revision thread where all the new scaling was decided.

That's a product of scaling, not a multiplier.

Also, what would the other Gears scale to then? You know, since it wouldn't make sense for normal Gear 4 to be 0.005% as strong as King Kong Gun.

I don't see why not, though we could just always get rid of that calc if it is inconsistent. (I'm not proposing that though)

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I don't see why not, though we could just always get rid of that calc if it is inconsistent. (I'm not proposing that though)

It's far from being inconsistent, it's a one time attack that one shot a >G2 Level opponent. The gap is valid, their argument from incredulity shouldn't be a point.

 

[Tinodesu]

I am a big fan of OP,but i don't really understand how power scaling in OP works,like how can some character got country level,in my opinion Island level is the strongest tier in OP considering that their strongest weapon (Pluton) is only capable of destroying an island,and until today i never seen OP character performed such a feats like completely destroyed an island (except Enel)

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

I am a big fan of OP,but i don't really understand how power scaling in OP works,like how can some character got country level,in my opinion Island level is the strongest tier in OP considering that their strongest weapon (Pluton) is only capable of destroying an island,and until today i never seen OP character performed such a feats like completely destroyed an island (except Enel)

I also agree that the 6-B rating is a little odd. It's basically just scaling from Whitebeard's Quake bubbles and the earthquakes he made with his Devil Fruit, which I guess makes sense but I've always believed so many characters indirectly reaching this rating is a stretch, but that's just me.

 

[Theendzero13]

i mean , it is weird to see so many people scaling to it , but in universe the power gap betwenn top tiers ain't high, if there is a gap at all, and all of the 6-B feats were done casually , so they have to scale

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Whitebeard is planet lvl.

 

[Kachon123]

Whitebeard is planet lvl.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

and until today i never seen OP character performed such a feats like completely destroyed an island (except Enel)

This is the same for literally every verse...

Whitebeard destroyed marine island

ace and blackbeard made island size fire and darkness

fujitora made an island size gravity thing

Akainu and aokiji made an whole island change climit just because of the aftermath

aokiji froze beyond the horizon

and much more

Yet blea.... Nevermind