One Piece Discussion Thread #4

[Dr.Fix]

Kaido

AP: casually one-shot Gear Fourth Luffy

Durability: took a barraged of attacks from an enraged Luffy without any damage.

That is really all we need to add to his profile. Island level can wait until all the other characters of the verse get downgraded as he is the most powerful of them all (if they end up getting downgraded).

As always, start with a CRT. Only staff are exempt from that rule.

 

[Sword_guy_Z]

@Damage They scale due to being more powerful. Unless you're seriously trying to say Fujitora is the strongest character in One Piece... in which case, I'd tell you to go read the series.

 

[Damage3245]

@Damage They scale due to being more powerful. Unless you're seriously trying to say Fujitora is the strongest character in One Piece... in which case, I'd tell you to go read the series.

Don't be silly about this.

We work off of evidence, not just making stuff up because it feels right. The energy of a meteor crashing into the ground isn't actually Fujitora's typical AP; for example, if he was fighting someone underground, could he use that meteor move there? Of course not, it's situational.

Of course Kaido is strong than Fujitora. That doesn't make him stronger than a meteorite.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

I don't think we should ignore Fuji's meteorite. He has been shown to use it in combat and attack with them, logically someone like Whitebeard and the Yonko should be stronger than anything Fujitora is capable of. This case should especially apply to Kaido due to him being unkillable in the verse. Doffy himself was able to cleave through one of the meteorites and Law was able to do the same and re direct it. Not scaling anyone to the meteorite seems like a unnecessary low ball.

 

[Damage3245]

It's a situational attack; and one meteor is not necessary like another meteor. The one Doffy and Law cut through was a couple dozen metres across at best IIRC. The one Fujitora dropped that was Large Island level was a couple kilometres across...

It varies too much to say anyone should automatically scale to it without feats.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

Visually when they were all in the sky they seemed to be the same size. They changed once Birdcage slashed them and took most of the KE. And in most cases they aren't situational at all. Fujitora is able to pull them down on a whim and use them in combat along side his DF. Which is funny because said DF power is the thing pulling them down which he also uses in combat, the gravity needed to pull them down should be comparable to the force of the meteorites themselves. And the underground example sounds a little silly. Going by that logic we're gonna need to downgrade Fairy Tail, Bleach and Naruto with that logic.




I think we're also forgetting his meteorite did this, which we should calc.

 

[Damage3245]

No, they were definitely different sizes. Just a quick comparison between the size of Doflamingo and the others on-panel next to the meteorite, and comparing the other meteorite to Dressrosa shows how different they are.

And it is situational; just because there are meteorites available in the sky for him to pull down doesn't mean his attacks are normally like that.

If Fujitora has a feat later on of him using a meteorite and Kaido no-selling it, then I will fully agree with you that Kaido scales to the meteorite. Otherwise, we're just making stuff up.

 

[Sword_guy_Z]

@Damage Fujitora was still capable of bringing down a meteorite with the AP that you mentioned. Also, you forget he did it casually, multiple times. Your argument implies that if any of those meteorites were to hit, say Kaido for instance, that he would be defeated. Now that assumption is definitely false in the context of the story. If the Yonko could be defeated by AP of that level, they would've been defeated already. It wasn't like Fujitora just tried that on the spot. Also, it doesn't make sense that Fujitora wouldn't be able to tank the impact of his own meteorite. Most of your assumptions about the Yonko being only 6C probably stems from your love of AOE attacks. One Piece has always been a more physical verse (Only Toriko imo, has the physical feats far surpassing One Piece in recent SJ history). I could keep going with why you're wrong, including the fact that Whitebeard was old, sick, and on his deathbed when he pulled off the feats that he did, most of which is ignored due to the nature of the calcs being too difficult. Besides that, we've seen feats consistently throughout the story (again, a lot are ignored because it doesn't fit most people's expectations of the verse's overall strength). I.e. One Piece's upgrade due to its calculated size and then downgrade simply because people can't accept that a fictional world is bigger than our sun. But regardless of that, it is still pretty evident that the top tiers at least reach High 6C, even with downplay (Aokiji freezing the Ocean, Doflamingo's strings stopping the Large Island level meteorites, Luffy destroying the said threads, Aokiji and Akainu permanently changing the climate of an island, etc.)... and although it isn't accepted here (again, probably due to power scaling disagreements), Enel's Raigou was going to destroy an island and he also had his other form, which he stated was his strongest form (too bad, he foolishly decided to use lightning again against rubber, despite knowing it wouldn't work). As for the rest of it, you clearly ignored the rest of my arguments in my previous posts.

 

[Stefano4444]

Which is funny because said DF power is the thing pulling them down which he also uses in combat, the gravity needed to pull them down should be comparable to the force of the meteorites themselves.

This is something that it had bother me before, assuming the asteroids weren't already been pulled by Earth's gravity itself, then Fujitora for bring the asteroids on the surface wouldn't need to generate by himself a gravitational pull comparable if not greater than Earth's surface?

 

[Sword_guy_Z]

@Calaca I agree with your statement. Damage does usually post against One Piece's upgrades saying that it is being overestimated. In my opinion, it used to be the second most downplayed Shonen verse (the first was Fairy Tail when they were still Hypersonic and City/ Mountain level). Ever since CinCameron left, it has been the most downplayed. Nobody steps up to do One Piece calcs anymore or tries to argue against its downgrades.

 

[The_Calaca]

Quick scaling chain:

Regular Kaido >>>>> WC G4 Luffy > Katakuri > Dressrosa G4 >> Doflamingo's God Thread with Haki > Birdcage > Fuji's meteor.

By extension Haki-armored threads are stronger than regular threads because that's what Haki does.

And thinking that the difference between Califa and Doffy is less than Mach 100 is laughable. EL Sanji was faster than Califa. Luffy outpaced and blitzed Blueno and even Lucci could kept up with G2 Luffy. After that the thing gets worse with Doffy outpacing G2 Luffy and G4 blitzing Doffy. Even Mach 400+ is ridiculous.

 

[EverWrink]

I believe that Fujitora's meteorite should still scale to the Yonko being stronger. As others above have stated, he was doing it pretty easily and consistently. It doesn't make sense to bring down something that can defeat you.

 

[Damage3245]

Birdcage didn't tank the full energy of the meteor. That's mentioned in the calc.

 

[Sword_guy_Z]

@Calaca Lol, at first I read that as el Sanji. And honestly, I believe people are really underestimating Luffy's speed. People forget that Luffy kicked away a lightning bolt in Skypiea and was starting to be able to keep up with Blueno in base. That was all before G2. And he's gotten many times faster since then. And he was just casually blitzed this chapter.

 

[The_Calaca]

I heavily disagree with laxus's lightning being real but it's offtopic here.

Also if Doffy has strings so damn powerful to tank and slices High 6-C meteors then why would he be so scared about enraging Kaido?

 

[Damage3245]

I believe that Fujitora's meteorite should still scale to the Yonko being stronger. As others above have stated, he was doing it pretty easily and consistently. It doesn't make sense to bring down something that can defeat you.

As soon as we get a feat involving the Yonkou and Fujitora's meteors, I will fully agree on that. Until then, I am pretty adamantly against it.

 

[The_Calaca]

Now that I'm in home I can properly post my thoughts.

Kaido is stated to be the most powerful creature in the world (including Zunisha who one shoted Jack so he can one shots him as well). There's no man nor thing who could lay a hand to Kaido in a 1v1.

Fuji's meteors aren't his own AP but it's the direct effect from his power. If the narrator says that no one could win against Kaido then no matter what the opponent tries. Kaido will survive. That, of course, includes Fuji with his meteors. And remember Kaido was introduced after Fujitora so Oda took that into consideration.

Even if WB's calc doesn't work anymore the tier shouldn't change with Fuji's meteors calced at High 6-C. It's not his direct AP but he can summon them when he wants. Underground battle? Sure, it's situational but that doesn't change the fact that he can do it.

Again, it's the narrator itself who's telling us that no one'd beat Kaido in a 1v1. Foxy could use his Noro Noro and that wouldn't defeat him (of course ¬_¬), Moriah could cut his shadow and I'm pretty damn sure Kaido'd rekt him again without falling unconscious, Califa could smooth his skin and Kaido'd still stomp her with no effort. There's no AP nor hax which could effectively put Kaido down in a 1v1.

 

[Damage3245]

> Again, it's the narrator itself who's telling us that no one'd beat Kaido in a 1v1.

I'm pretty sure the narrator is just telling us Kaido's in-universe hype. People bet on Kaido in a one-on-one fight because they're damn sure he's going to win. Not because Kaido automatically stomps any opponent in the verse.

Otherwise how would Shanks have stopped him before Marineford? Who gave him the enormous scar in his chest? Why would Big Mom consider Whitebeard even more of an achievement to beat than Kaido, etc.

I don't deny Kaido would almost certainly win in a fight against Fujitora. I'm saying that we can't use that level of speculation to scale Kaido to Fujitora's biggest seen meteor without evidence.

> There's no AP nor hax which could effectively put Kaido down in a 1v1.

How about is Sugar touches him?

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

I still see no reason to straight out reject his meteorites scaling to others. There's more evidence implying that we can indeed scale them to the Admirals and Yonko, seeing as how they should be stronger than anything Fujitora is capable of or he'd be the strongest One Piece character which is objectively wrong. Again, other series get normal treatment with their feats so why are we sitting here lowballing literally every One Piece calc? It's honestly been bugging me for awhile, and I don't mean to be rude or anything but it seems like people are just against One Piece getting the ratings they don't agree with. Fujitora can pull down meteorites with the power of his DF, and can use said DF in combat. He's done so against Law and Doffy who've cut them and reacted to the speeds. Granted, the meteorites were smaller due to them being sliced by Birdcage but the point still stands. There's much more evidence implying that they can be scaled to the meteorites. And if I'm honest I think that One Piece was better before all the downgrades, not the tier itself but the scaling was certainly more appropriate.


Whenever there's a potential One Piece upgrade it's either dismissed with "I think we're overestimating this." or some other absurd reason and I mean that with all respect due. At worst I can compromise with a "At least 6-C+, Likely High 6-C." since it seems none of us are gonna come to a solid agreement.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

> Again, it's the narrator itself who's telling us that no one'd beat Kaido in a 1v1.

I'm pretty sure the narrator is just telling us Kaido's in-universe hype. People bet on Kaido in a one-on-one fight because they're damn sure he's going to win. Not because Kaido automatically stomps any opponent in the verse.

Otherwise how would Shanks have stopped him before Marineford? Who gave him the enormous scar in his chest? Why would Big Mom consider Whitebeard even more of an achievement to beat than Kaido, etc.

I don't deny Kaido would almost certainly win in a fight against Fujitora. I'm saying that we can't use that level of speculation to scale Kaido to Fujitora's biggest seen meteor without evidence.

> There's no AP nor hax which could effectively put Kaido down in a 1v1.

How about is Sugar touches him?

Same case as Law. Stronger Haki would negate the hax like how Doffy did with Law.

 

[Damage3245]

> Same case as Law. Stronger Haki would negate the hax like how Doffy did with Law.

Not all hax is the same as all other hax. Haki doesn't necessarily provide resistance to transmutation.

> Granted, the meteorites were smaller due to them being sliced by Birdcage but the point still stands.

You're misremembering the feats.

Fujitora brought down his other meteors way before the Birdcage, right?

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

> Same case as Law. Stronger Haki would negate the hax like how Doffy did with Law.

Not all hax is the same as all other hax. Haki doesn't necessarily provide resistance to transmutation.

IF it's a Devil Fruit based hax then yes. You're forgetting that Haki is the weakness of all Devil Fruits.


> You're misremembering feats Fujitora brought down his meteorites way before the birdcage right?


Pretty sure the ones brought down on Doffy and Law were the ones sliced by Birdcage although I could be wrong I'll have to look.

 

[Damage3245]

Haki, strictly speaking, doesn't negate Devil Fruits.

It allows the user to bypass certain Devil Fruit attributes like Logia intangibility, or Luffy's resistance to blunt damage. But it doesn't stop the DF's from working / negate their other powers.

 

[The_Calaca]

Not sure if this is the correct Translation

Going by this page the narrator says what people says but in the second squarespeech it's the narrator again who's talking. How do I know? Well, what's the point in people saying "oh, yeah, go ahead, fight Kaido and get rekt because he's the bloody strongest monstrosity in this world".
We don't know if Shanks even fought Kaido. And he was with his crew so it's even easier to put down a guy if you attack in group rather than just you. If you're thinking that he's beatable only because Shanks stopped him you're wrong. Shanks and the Akagami Pirates were totally unscathed and they met Kaido when? One or two days before the war?

WB was stated to be the strongest man alive and the pirate with most chances to find the One Piece. I don't remember where's that statement anyway.

The fact that Doffy didn't gave a f**k with that meteor and he's crap his pants just thinking on fighting Kaido it's more than enough in my opinion.

>Sugar

Right. Forgot about her. Still Kaido just steps on her giving no options.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

I never said Haki fully negates the DF. But what it does do is act as a major weakness of Devil Fruit powers as seen in literally every example. Garp bypassing Luffys blunt force resistance, Haki bypassing Logia intang, Doffy's Haki negating Law's spatial hax, etc.

 

[Damage3245]

> The fact that Doffy didn't gave a f**k with that meteor and he's crap his pants just thinking on fighting Kaido it's more than enough in my opinion.

Doffy seemed pretty alarmed and later angry with Fujitora about a meteor that was much smaller than the one that got Large Island level results.

 

[The_Calaca]

I just remember Law couldn't cut Vergo in his childhood with his powers or maybe I'm misremembering things. Anyway that would give Resistance to Spatial Manipulation to any good Buso user.

But that doesn't mean that any hax'd be resisted with Haki. Let alone negated.

Imagine Luffy ignoring Transmutation just because 'lolbuso'.

> The fact that Doffy didn't gave a f**k with that meteor and he's crap his pants just thinking on fighting Kaido it's more than enough in my opinion. Doffy seemed pretty alarmed and later angry with Fujitora about a meteor that was much smaller than the one that got Large Island level results.

Yeah, because there wasn't a defense like the Birdcage. And what happened when Fuji brought down a bigger meteor?

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

> The fact that Doffy didn't gave a f**k with that meteor and he's crap his pants just thinking on fighting Kaido it's more than enough in my opinion.

Doffy seemed pretty alarmed and later angry with Fujitora about a meteor that was much smaller than the one that got Large Island level results.

He was alarmed because he was surprised that Fujitora did that in a place full of innocent people.

 

[Damage3245]

> I just remember Law couldn't cut Vergo in his childhood with his powers or maybe I'm misremembering things. Anyway that would give Resistance to Spatial Manipulation to any good Buso user.

Law never used his powers when Vergo showed up. He didn't know how to use them.

> Yeah, because there wasn't a defense like the Birdcage. And what happened when Fuji brought down a bigger meteor?

Birdcage still doesn't directly scale to the full energy of the meteor.

> He was alarmed because he was surprised that Fujitora did that in a place full of innocent people.

I may be misremembering it but they were fighting on a beach with no one else around, right?

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

Also if we're gonna not use the meteorite then we should re do it using an assumed time frame to scale the characters to higher speeds like the OBD did. The OBD did just that and got mach 3000+ from it but with the current state of One Piece it would probably get rejected for some silly reason.

 

[Sword_guy_Z]

People here seem to assume that the top tiers have already shown all that they were capable of and because of this, they reject anything that seems to put them at higher levels.

 

[Sword_guy_Z]

@Damage Doffy cut Fuji's meteorites casually twice. He wasn't scared or angry in regards to his own safety. He was bothered by the fact that Fujitora seems to have no regard for his surroundings when he uses them.

 

[Damage3245]

> @Damage Doffy cut Fuji's meteorites casually twice. He wasn't scared or angry in regards to his own safety.

Judging by Doffy's expressions when the feat happened and his attitude towards Fujitora, I'll disagree with the word 'casually'. I think that he was angry with Fujitora for dropping an AOE attack on top of them but I'd rather not argue about the fine interpretations of the scene.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

It was a casual feat. Again Doffy wasn't worried about getting injured or hurt by the meteorite he was just shocked that Fujitora would pull one down randomly.

 

[The_Calaca]

Law never used his powers when Vergo showed up. He didn't know how to use them.

Birdcage still doesn't directly scale to the full energy of the meteor.

IIRC Vergo stated that in the past Law couldn't cut him. But again, I could be misremembering.

Even if the Birdcage doesn't scale he can cut the meteor with his threads. He did it twice as many people said. Are you seriously implying that Kaido couldn't do the same to the meteor that the Birdcage did?

If that's the case then how's the Pirate Age still a thing? If the Navy has such power then why the pirates still exists? In-series we have three powers keeping the whole world balance. The Yonko, the Admirals and the Shichibukai. If the Admirals are that strong (or just Fujitora with his recurrent attack method) then why the Shichibukai would exist in first place?

@Rin

Could you send the link to the OBD calc? I want to take a look.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/22542/

 

[The_Calaca]

It's not working and IDK how to use the wayback machine.

 

[Damage3245]

> If the Navy has such power then why the pirates still exists?

Fujitora just joined the Navy recently.

> The Yonko, the Admirals and the Shichibukai.

It goes without saying I think that collectively the Yonkou and the Marines are both more powerful than the Schichibukai. The Schichibukai are there to held pad out the Marine's forces in the event of conflict with a Yonkou.

If a healthy Whitebeard, Big Mom, Kaido and Shanks stormed Marineford instead of just the Whitebeard Pirates, then the Paramount War would have been over a lot sooner.

 

[The_Calaca]

>Fujitora just joined the Navy

Doesn't change the fact that if the Navy knows about his potential they'd send him to kill the Yonkos. They know he can do that and if he was recruited there's a reason for it.

>The Schichibukai are there to held pad out the Marine's forces in the event of conflict with a Yonkou.

Exactly, because the Admirals can't do it for their own. Shirohige'd rekt any of them in a 1v1 fight. It took the entire effort of Marineford with the best of the best to fight against a Shirohige restricted by circunstances, old, sick and even stabbed in the chest. And they weren't who killed the old man after all. Kaido should be at least if not stronger (I guess because Kaido's title is more wide than SH's).

>If a healthy Whitebeard, Big Mom, Kaido and Shanks stormed Marineford instead of just the Whitebeard Pirates, then the Paramount War would have been over a lot sooner.

This is unnecesary to say because it's obvious. Even one Yonko take much more effort than any other pirate/marine. Shiki's loss needed Garp and Sengoku combined effort for days IIRC and half of Marineford got destroyed.

It's pretty clear that no Admiral could beat a Yonko in a 1v1. No matter who.

 

[Damage3245]

> Doesn't change the fact that if the Navy knows about his potential they'd send him to kill the Yonkos. They know he can do that and if he was recruited there's a reason for it.

You're making this more complicated than it has to be.

It's like saying "Doflamingo shouldn't be scared of Kaido, he could just have Sugar touch him and turn him into a toy."