One Piece: AP Revision of High Tiers

[Antvasima]

Should the justification for 6-C Gear 4th Luffy be improved? Currently it only mentions that he got 3 times stronger, not that he broke Doflamingo's god thread.

 

[Standuser081]

Yeah, I think it should since that's the main reason for his 6-C AP.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Doflamingo's profile might have to be updated as well.

Are you willing to handle this Damage3245?

 

[Damage3245]

So:

• Update Whitebeard's three main Commanders to be comparable to Big Mom's three main Commanders.

• Update Jack, Nekomamushi and Inuarashi to scale to Big Mom's Commanders.

• Improve Luffy's Gear 4 justification.

• Add a qualifier to Pica's page covering his Stone Golems.

If you're okay with all of that, I can get those changes done today.

 

[Antvasima]

That should probably be fine, yes, although we also need to discuss whether or not some of them should be "At least 6-C".

 

[Antvasima]

The giant elephant should probably also be updated, and it is possible that other One Piece profiles should be as well. I am not sure which ones that would be affected though.

 

[Damage3245]

I originally had Katakuri as At least 6-C because he was easily the strongest fighter of the Big Mom Pirates aside from Big Mom herself, and he dominated even Gear 4 Luffy for a majority of the fight as long as he kept his composure.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. What about Smoothie and the characters that are going to be upgraded? Should they receive "At least 6-C" as well?

 

[Damage3245]

I think that, considering how little we've seen of Smoothie, we should bump her down to just 6-C like Cracker.

As for the Whitebeard Commanders, I think just Marco should be At least 6-C for being in a similar position to Katakuri and being one of the few people estimated of being able to take down Blackbeard.

Vista, Jozu, Ace and Jinbe should all probably be just 6-C.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems fine. I suppose that Mihawk was likely holding back when fighting Vista.

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah, I mean, even Crocodile was able to clash with Mihawk during that battle. I think quite a lot of characters during the Paramount War were holding back.

 

[Antvasima]

Probably yes.

 

[Ugarik]

Shanks should be "At most high 8-C" or just "8-C" because the only feat we saw from him is losing his arm agains a fish that was destroyed by a weakest attack of pre easy blu saga luffy.

 

[Antvasima]

Shanks clashed evenly with Whitebeard. He evidently lowered his power level in order to inspire Luffy.

 

[Damage3245]

Also, retcons do exist even in series as grand as One Piece.

I doubt Oda envisaged Shanks being as strong as he is in the first chapter, plus the loss of his arm wasn't even in Oda's original plans since it was a suggestion from his editor.

 

[Kilofiercevids11]

Wait Didnt Luffy One Shotted Doflamingo in the manga without him using the god thread. lol

 

[Damage3245]

Wait Didnt Luffy One Shotted Doflamingo in the manga without him using the god thread. lol

Luffy only one-shot Doflamingo exactly once, and it was with his strongest technique.

 

[Dr.Fix]

So:

• Update Whitebeard's three main Commanders to be comparable to Big Mom's three main Commanders.

• Update Jack, Nekomamushi and Inuarashi to scale to Big Mom's Commanders.

• Improve Luffy's Gear 4 justification.

• Add a qualifier to Pica's page covering his Stone Golems.

If you're okay with all of that, I can get those changes done today.

1. Nah, they're too weak. Remember Whitebeard has like twenty 2nd in commands while Big Mom and Kaido have only three at the same rank and comparable bounty. Shanks has an even smaller crew and Benn is twice as dangerous as either jack or kataguri, who are twice as dangerous as Ace was.

Benn>>Kataguri/Jack=Other sweet comanders/disasters>>Marco/Ace/Jonzu/etc

2. Not sure about the cat and dog. They fought Jack but had to take turns and recover implying Jack was stronger than them individually.

3. Yes, I'm still not sure about Birdcage mess. 6-C Luff and up does seem appropiate though. Maybe we need another calc from a different feat.

4. I'm honestly not invested in Pica, so I'll leave that to more qualified members to decide.

 

[Damage3245]

1. Just because they're Commanders doesn't mean they're all the same strength, some of them were clearly stronger than others.

2. You don't get to fight someone for 12 hours in a row without being roughly comparable to them. Jack was stronger and had more endurance, sure, but they're still on his level.

 

[Captain_Torch]

I already said this, but I am against scaling to the birdcage myself. I do believe Gear 4 Luffy is definetly island level by now, I just don't think that scaling him to the bird cage is correct. On this wiki special moves do not always scale to AP, especially a move like this. I think making an exception just for Doflamingo is going against the wiki's standards.

I'm just repeating myself at this point though

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Damage3245.

 

[Antvasima]

@Torch

I already explained that wiki standard is generally to assume that a character using the same power for one purpose can use to for attacks of equal power otherwise, unless clearly contradicted.

 

[Dr.Fix]

1. Just because they're Commanders doesn't mean they're all the same strength, some of them were clearly stronger than others.
2. You don't get to fight someone for 12 hours in a row without being roughly comparable to them. Jack was stronger and had more endurance, sure, but they're still on his level.

1. True, but do you see how that goes both ways?

"Just because they're commanders doesn't mean they're all the same strength"

this applies to both Whitebeards commanders internally as well as comapring them to external commanders (Dog face).

Yea, that's why I think ts weird. Does Jack just have crazy high endurance compared to the rest of his stats or was he goign easy on them and that's why his stayed strong so long without needing medics or sleep? Its worth discusion I think.

 

[Captain_Torch]

The main problem with birdcage is that it doesn't even really have AP. It's a special inescapable cage that kills everyone after a while, and the only way to stop it is to beat Doflamingo. That's been shown inverse. Sure, it's a NLF to say that it's "ubreakable", but it shouldn't scale to anything.

Doflamingo himself was sure that Fujitora and everyone in the vacinity would die because of it, despite him being weaker than them. Neither Zoro nor Fujitora could stop it, the best thing they could do is push it. It's pretty clearly a special move.

The whole point of the birdcage is that it's an unescapable cage, luffy beating doflamingo doesn't mean that luffy can break the birdcage.

 

[Damage3245]

@Dr.Fix, they call Jack a monster, and that no matter what they did he was the only invading pirate that they could not put down.

I just take that as meaning his stamina and endurance were on a whole other level compared to them but in turn Jack was not capable of taking them down so he's clearly not tiers above them either.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Well Jack is likely at least Island level, probably higher if we're using the birdcage as solid evidence. Do you think Island level + is good for them if they managed to damage him?

 

[Damage3245]

I think just Island level for all three of them is probably best for now.

 

[Dr.Fix]

You think Jack is that much weaker than Joker???

 

[Damage3245]

Doflamingo's typical AP is At least High 7-A; only with his most powerful attacks was he 6-C because his usual attacks were completely unable to harm Gear 4 Luffy and he was getting wrecked by him in return.

 

[Damage3245]

On a side note, after these revisions have been done (which should conclude the high-tier revisions for now), I'm going to be examining the scaling used for all the Water 7 / Enies Lobby characters. There's a ton of circular scaling going on in some of the profiles that I can see.

Torch, would you be willing to help go through those later on and see what may need revising?

 

[Captain_Torch]

I'll try to help how I can. I honestly disagree with Crocodile's calculation, since it used the city for scaling, which was very inconsistent. Even NF dissaproved of that feat.

 

[Damage3245]

From what I can tell, Crocodile's calc is being used for essentially every CP9 profile + the Straw Hats of that arc / Pre-Timeskip. That makes me skeptical. Especially since most of the current justifications are just saying that the CP9 members are comparable to each other.

 

[The_Calaca]

I'm taking notes about the manga. I'm currently at Drum Island but if you need help just say so.

 

[Captain_Torch]

Not to mention that the whole jump from High 8-C to Low 7-B is really shaky. PreSkip OP has consistent town level feats, and then it has one Low 7-B feat, which is also a debatable calc.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm generally not a fan of storm calcs and applying that to a characters' physical stats without good reason but I'm reserving judgement on that to see how the profiles are written currently.

Right now, Luffy's justification on his profile does not mean he should scale to Crocodile's sand storm. At best he seemingly scales ot Crocodile's Desert Spada which was calced to be Multi-City Block level, not Small City level.

 

[Captain_Torch]

Luffy does have a small town level back in skypiea(was done on NF), so he should scale to that.

Lucci and Luffy's G2/G3 should scale to the reject dial which was calced to be town level on NF.

At least that's the scaling NF uses. They were actually like that on vsbattles as well, but after crocodile's feat everybody changed to small city level - city level, which is really shaky.

 

[Antvasima]

@Torch

Okay. Point taken.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, this thread has over 400 posts, and automatically closes at 500. It is starting to get time to create a continuation thread.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Doflamingo's typical AP is At least High 7-A; only with his most powerful attacks was he 6-C because his usual attacks were completely unable to harm Gear 4 Luffy and he was getting wrecked by him in return.

I know that, but that doesn't answer my question.

 

[Damage3245]

I've finished work for the day, and I can get on with putting in the changes for the remaining high-tier characters that need it soon.

If a new thread is to be created, I think it will have to do with fresh revisions for OP.