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Only the original anime over 18 years ago is connected to super according to the official product descriptions.
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Official Dragon Ball Continuities Citations
- Thread starter Firestorm808
- Start date
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- #84
Are you referring to the product descriptions or Adem Warlock69?
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That's the same thing as Toriyama did when referring to the anime as the sequel to his story. It could just mean they're talking about the story of DBS, not particularly anime or manga. It could be interpreted both ways.
Both media are equally canon to the original story since they are equally non-canon as neither of them are directly from Toriyama.
Both media are equally canon to the original story since they are equally non-canon as neither of them are directly from Toriyama.
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Well it could be supporting evidence to the product descriptions
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- #90
When Toryama talks about the Super Anime and how it continues from the Bu arc, he goes on about how the anime story has grown big.
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/2015/07/01/dragon-ball-super-complete-showcase-event-reveals-series-plot/
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/2015/07/01/dragon-ball-super-complete-showcase-event-reveals-series-plot/
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And that doesn't really prove any point. He's just talking about the popularity, not the canonicity.
That mention wasn't even in the same paragraph, that was on a completely unrelated note to what we're talking about.
That mention wasn't even in the same paragraph, that was on a completely unrelated note to what we're talking about.
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- #92
Regardless of Toriyama's indefinite answers, the publishers have made repeated official statements in their products of how their media connects to previous works as shown in my OP. I have not found any other official statements saying otherwise.
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I agree 100% with AKM Sama, his plot outline is clearly stated to be a sequal to "His own work" which would be the original canon manga rather than the original Anime and/or Kai. Especially since the original Anime was clearly intended to have GT be its follow up. So in other words, both versions of Super are equally canon. And all interviews above are literally talking about the entertainment revival rather than story sequels.
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- #95
So the question isn't "What did first-parties say about the continuity," it's "What did first-parties say about the production process?"
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What the first parties said about the products could be interpreted differently. Or could be taken literally which again makes both media canon to his story, just like the case with Toriyama himself referring the DBS anime as the official continuation of his story.
It doesn't matter what someone said in case there is a lack of clarity or contradiction, it matters what is being done and what's the truth.
It doesn't matter what someone said in case there is a lack of clarity or contradiction, it matters what is being done and what's the truth.
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- #97
I'm starting to think DDM was wrong about Toriyama saying the Super Manga being promotional material and about Toei saying the TV specials are canon to the original anime.
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- #98
So hypothetically, if the writer for the Naruto manga made only plot outlines of Boruto for two publishers to make an anime and manga respectively, said anime and manga would equally be canon to the Naruto Manga. It wouldn't matter if the anime team made even more filler than their previous Naruto Shippuden anime since they aren't adapting a complete manga anymore.
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Actually, one of the scans called Super Manga "Promotional material". Maybe it was misunderstood, but there's definitely some kind of statement about it being "Promotional". And yes, it would be like that if the plot outline was considered continuation of his work.
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@ByAsura
The discussion is about collecting any and all official statements regarding officially connected stories. From there, we make explanation of why the site has Super Anime and Manga as equally connected to the original manga with cited first-party references to answer any future discussions.
@DarkDragonMedeus
That's the part that confuses me. If a studio that animates a written manga and adds a bit of filler, it becomes a seprate continuity from the original manga. However; if the studio animates an outline and adds even more original filler, it's connected to the original manga and equally canon with the manga from the outline.
That's on top of the anime publisher saying the anime is a continuation of their anime, the Manga publisher saying the new manga is a continuation of the original manga, and Toriyama being very indefinite.
"- once again in this continuation of Akira Toriyama's best-selling series, Dragon Ball!" - All the Back Covers of the Super Manga
"The long-awaited continuation of one of the world's most beloved action anime, 18 years in the making!" - Official Super Anime product pages
Citation and links are located in the OP.
Has the site applied this explanation with similar situations to other series as well?
The discussion is about collecting any and all official statements regarding officially connected stories. From there, we make explanation of why the site has Super Anime and Manga as equally connected to the original manga with cited first-party references to answer any future discussions.
@DarkDragonMedeus
That's the part that confuses me. If a studio that animates a written manga and adds a bit of filler, it becomes a seprate continuity from the original manga. However; if the studio animates an outline and adds even more original filler, it's connected to the original manga and equally canon with the manga from the outline.
That's on top of the anime publisher saying the anime is a continuation of their anime, the Manga publisher saying the new manga is a continuation of the original manga, and Toriyama being very indefinite.
"- once again in this continuation of Akira Toriyama's best-selling series, Dragon Ball!" - All the Back Covers of the Super Manga
"The long-awaited continuation of one of the world's most beloved action anime, 18 years in the making!" - Official Super Anime product pages
Citation and links are located in the OP.
Has the site applied this explanation with similar situations to other series as well?
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The Manga also has content that could be considered "Filler", so again; it comes back to saying the Plot Outline is the primary canon. And the animators often contradict them selves. Also, an add really isn't the best thing to use for canonicities comparisons. It's really story data, plot follow ups, and main author statements such as in interviews are what hold more weight. The add it just something to give hype to those who were fans of the Anime.
Also, the new Broly movie that was stated to be Canon. Was also stated that it follows the Anime's Tournament of Power. So if it's both canon and stated to be a sequal to the Super Anime, that would have to make the Super Anime it follows canon too. Because in the Manga, there was more chapters after the Tournament of power and no mention of Broly Movie in between iirc.
Also, the new Broly movie that was stated to be Canon. Was also stated that it follows the Anime's Tournament of Power. So if it's both canon and stated to be a sequal to the Super Anime, that would have to make the Super Anime it follows canon too. Because in the Manga, there was more chapters after the Tournament of power and no mention of Broly Movie in between iirc.
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There's like, one double-page showing Broly, Goku and Vegeta, and then it skips all the events of the movie to go into the next saga.DarkDragonMedeus said:
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There's really no sense in debating people who are already of the predesignated belief that they correct and since these same people control the changes made and done to the site at large were literally just speaking on death ear's.
Even though their verifiable wrong in this case and other cases i've seen they run the site and control what gets done and changed so if you don't like the standard set it would be best just to leave and or accept that reality for what it is.
Even though their verifiable wrong in this case and other cases i've seen they run the site and control what gets done and changed so if you don't like the standard set it would be best just to leave and or accept that reality for what it is.
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- #106
That is a bit pessimistic. I believe we can all come to terms in a proper discussion. While we had the unfortunate event of unsourceable quotes, I am pleased to have at least narrowed down what official statements can be used to argue for the site's view of the Main DB Canon.
Mar 12, 2018
Toriyama comments that the Boly movie is the next story of the Super anime.
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/2018/03/...y-staff-visual-release-date-toriyama-comment/
https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/973361940213809152
Dec 6, 2018
Shueisha's Weekly Jump announces Broly's and Vegetto's introduction into the canon, meaning that the Broly Movie is considered by them as Canon.
https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1070890625803804672
I believe I can properly word the site's view of the main canon.
The original manga is in the main canon by default.
The Broly Movie is officially called into canon by Shueisha's Weekly Jump who is the primary publisher of the Dragon Ball Manga.
Toriyama, the sole writer of the movie, commented that the Broly movie is the next chapter of the anime story.
The Dragon Ball Chou skims the Broly arc, implying they want readers to see the Broly Movie to know what happened.
This can be taken in two ways: Shueisha recognizes the Broly movie as canon but only for the Chou manga.
Or Shueisha accepts the Super Anime as part of the main canon as well, connecting it to their original manga.
I believe the figure below will help visualize it.
While Toei Animation and Viz have made their own english statements regarding continuities, I will admit that Shueisha has more pull than Viz as the original manga publisher. After looking at the Japanese manga backings, I see that they don't have the continuity statement like the English Viz publications. Toei's statement is another matter that can be discussed further.
Mar 12, 2018
Toriyama comments that the Boly movie is the next story of the Super anime.
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/2018/03/...y-staff-visual-release-date-toriyama-comment/
https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/973361940213809152
Dec 6, 2018
Shueisha's Weekly Jump announces Broly's and Vegetto's introduction into the canon, meaning that the Broly Movie is considered by them as Canon.
https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1070890625803804672
I believe I can properly word the site's view of the main canon.
The original manga is in the main canon by default.
The Broly Movie is officially called into canon by Shueisha's Weekly Jump who is the primary publisher of the Dragon Ball Manga.
Toriyama, the sole writer of the movie, commented that the Broly movie is the next chapter of the anime story.
The Dragon Ball Chou skims the Broly arc, implying they want readers to see the Broly Movie to know what happened.
This can be taken in two ways: Shueisha recognizes the Broly movie as canon but only for the Chou manga.
Or Shueisha accepts the Super Anime as part of the main canon as well, connecting it to their original manga.
I believe the figure below will help visualize it.
While Toei Animation and Viz have made their own english statements regarding continuities, I will admit that Shueisha has more pull than Viz as the original manga publisher. After looking at the Japanese manga backings, I see that they don't have the continuity statement like the English Viz publications. Toei's statement is another matter that can be discussed further.
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That's factually incorrect if your going off context and statements but like i've mentioned before the banter of one really matters not when the standard is already set one way and if anyone has anything meaningful and or worth revisions to talk about in regards to db just @me.
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So in other words, there are two "Primary canons" both starting with the original manga, and followed by Super (Anime and Manga respectively) and then have Broly taking place after the Tournament of Power. Weekly did say Broly was canon, but didn't say which one it follows. But Toriyama himself did say the movie follows the Super Anime and technically, transformations of both characters appear in the movies. For example, SSG Vegeta and SSB Kaioken x20 Goku.
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@Missy0124
As I said earlier, this thread was to layout the site's reasoning for the current view of the manin continuity using official statements. Now that we have the current standing established, it can now be properly cross-examined.
As I said earlier, this thread was to layout the site's reasoning for the current view of the manin continuity using official statements. Now that we have the current standing established, it can now be properly cross-examined.
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I personally argue that, while Toriyama wrote the Broly movie as a continuation of the anime, Shueisha only accepts the movie as one arc of their published Dragon Ball Chou Manga. This is supported by Viz's History of Dragon Ball that was released in Japanese, showing that the official sequel to the original manga is Dragon Ball Chou.
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I still disagree with that, we have had so many discussions about it. But it was still agreed to have two primary canons; both include the original Manga and Broly. But one has Super Anime while the other has Super Manga.
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- #114
It can be argued that Viz's History of Dragon Ball is just the Manga half of the dual continuities considering their line of work, especially since we don't have any statements rejecting the Super Anime from being part of the main continuity.
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Firestorm808
Were using the standard as the excuse to base everything off of instead of facts and or reasoning which is the fundamental issue with the dragon ball scaling here then again were going off a predesignated ideal of how canon works and were basing facts around that idea instead of basing the system around the most likely outcome looking at the facts.
The notion of canon here goes off a predesignated notion so supporting that idea with facts is pointless cause the conclusion to the argument is already established regardless of the facts presented
Were using the standard as the excuse to base everything off of instead of facts and or reasoning which is the fundamental issue with the dragon ball scaling here then again were going off a predesignated ideal of how canon works and were basing facts around that idea instead of basing the system around the most likely outcome looking at the facts.
The notion of canon here goes off a predesignated notion so supporting that idea with facts is pointless cause the conclusion to the argument is already established regardless of the facts presented
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- #116
Yes, I agree that the site has done poorly at explaining to others why the site's current view of the Main Continuity of Dragon Ball is the way that it is. That is one of the reasons I created this thread. I wanted settle everything in a formalized manner with all sources cited.
The proposal is that the site's current view of the Main Continuity of Dragon Ball must be changed. This is based off two questions:
The first question is "Does the Super Anime follow the Original Anime or the Manga?"
The second conditional question is "If the Super Anime does follow the original Manga, Should the Super Anime and Super Manga be treated as equals?"
I am acting on both the prosecutor and the defender sides in this thead.
I played the devil's advocate and made a formal argument of the defending party of why the Super Anime does follow the original Manga and why the Super Anime is ambiguous with the Super Manga. This position is based on the two statements that I mentioned above.
Now, it is my turn to play the prosecutor. Taking the defending statements I mind, I must find other statements and official reasonigs to prove my case.
From an outside perspective, the defendant side uses transitive reasoning that the Super Anime is canon and follows the original Manga. If the Broly movie was written to take place after the Super Anime and that the Broly Movie is called canon, then the Super Anime must be considered canon. If the Super Anime is canon, then it must follow the original canon manga.
On the prosecutor side, I argue that Toriyama's intent is overuled by the publishers. Sheisha has stated that the Broly Movie is canon, but they didn't say whether it was canon to the Super Anime or Manga. Since they only own the rights to the Original and Super mangas, they should only speak of canon on behalf of those pieces of media. This is in addition to the co-manga publisher Viz's Japanese History of Dragon Ball exhibit. The official Japanese timeline displays the official sequel to the original manga is Dragon Ball Chou. This tips the scales of the ambiguity toward Shueisha only seeing the Broly movie as canon to the Super Manga and not the Super Anime. Additionally, I put Toei's official product descriptions about their Super Anime being a continuation of the original anime from over 18 years ago. I feel that these statements hold more weight than the transitive reasonings from ambiguity of the defending side.
However, I am unable to make a case based off official statements as to why the Super Anime should be of equal canon to the Suepr Manga should the first question be answered.
I am working on getting other users for their input on the matter.
The proposal is that the site's current view of the Main Continuity of Dragon Ball must be changed. This is based off two questions:
The first question is "Does the Super Anime follow the Original Anime or the Manga?"
The second conditional question is "If the Super Anime does follow the original Manga, Should the Super Anime and Super Manga be treated as equals?"
I am acting on both the prosecutor and the defender sides in this thead.
I played the devil's advocate and made a formal argument of the defending party of why the Super Anime does follow the original Manga and why the Super Anime is ambiguous with the Super Manga. This position is based on the two statements that I mentioned above.
Now, it is my turn to play the prosecutor. Taking the defending statements I mind, I must find other statements and official reasonigs to prove my case.
From an outside perspective, the defendant side uses transitive reasoning that the Super Anime is canon and follows the original Manga. If the Broly movie was written to take place after the Super Anime and that the Broly Movie is called canon, then the Super Anime must be considered canon. If the Super Anime is canon, then it must follow the original canon manga.
On the prosecutor side, I argue that Toriyama's intent is overuled by the publishers. Sheisha has stated that the Broly Movie is canon, but they didn't say whether it was canon to the Super Anime or Manga. Since they only own the rights to the Original and Super mangas, they should only speak of canon on behalf of those pieces of media. This is in addition to the co-manga publisher Viz's Japanese History of Dragon Ball exhibit. The official Japanese timeline displays the official sequel to the original manga is Dragon Ball Chou. This tips the scales of the ambiguity toward Shueisha only seeing the Broly movie as canon to the Super Manga and not the Super Anime. Additionally, I put Toei's official product descriptions about their Super Anime being a continuation of the original anime from over 18 years ago. I feel that these statements hold more weight than the transitive reasonings from ambiguity of the defending side.
However, I am unable to make a case based off official statements as to why the Super Anime should be of equal canon to the Suepr Manga should the first question be answered.
I am working on getting other users for their input on the matter.
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Firestorm808
The site does not need to explain why it's scaling is the way it is cause the canon we use on the site goes off the predesignated idea that super is canon and that everything toei makes is part one canon say for super but the logicality or lack there of does not matter period because of the way things are run here.
I've did the exact thing you have done in a attempt to change the standard many times but the issue with trying such a thing is the people operate the basis that their right and your wrong before the facts are even presented because the status quo and standard of the site matters more than being factually correct.
The issue with trying to make revisions in regards to dragon ball is the fact almost all matters are already set in stone regardless of how wrong they are and toriyama has never said anything in regards to canon say for a few examples here or there so his nonexistent word on super's canon vs the people who make it i'll go with creators for obvious reasons.
Like i mentioned before dozens of times if super was canon to the manga marron would not get mentioned by 18,gregory would not appear,filler would not exist but those points of contention do not matter because everyone operates on predesignated notion that their right i've got people here to admit things are the way they are cause of the standards and nothing more if you need anymore proof the main db page itself says the we way scale is wrong and does have alot of issues but that's the standard so deal with it's not the exact wording there but essentially it says that same exact thing.
Gt was canon to the manga according to the majority back in the day despite of the facts i've seen anime only spinoffs come and pass in anime and they all were called canon btw these same people always had a biased towards the show in question that made them unable to come up with a logical conclusion it's the same the thing with super but 20 yrs later once the hype and fanboy culture of super dies down enough the stance people have with the show will be nigh identical but canon in most cases just means the original and whatever new installments are popular at the time especially in regards to dragon ball cause there is no established canon so people just consider whatever they like as canon regardless of the facts at hand.
The site does not need to explain why it's scaling is the way it is cause the canon we use on the site goes off the predesignated idea that super is canon and that everything toei makes is part one canon say for super but the logicality or lack there of does not matter period because of the way things are run here.
I've did the exact thing you have done in a attempt to change the standard many times but the issue with trying such a thing is the people operate the basis that their right and your wrong before the facts are even presented because the status quo and standard of the site matters more than being factually correct.
The issue with trying to make revisions in regards to dragon ball is the fact almost all matters are already set in stone regardless of how wrong they are and toriyama has never said anything in regards to canon say for a few examples here or there so his nonexistent word on super's canon vs the people who make it i'll go with creators for obvious reasons.
Like i mentioned before dozens of times if super was canon to the manga marron would not get mentioned by 18,gregory would not appear,filler would not exist but those points of contention do not matter because everyone operates on predesignated notion that their right i've got people here to admit things are the way they are cause of the standards and nothing more if you need anymore proof the main db page itself says the we way scale is wrong and does have alot of issues but that's the standard so deal with it's not the exact wording there but essentially it says that same exact thing.
Gt was canon to the manga according to the majority back in the day despite of the facts i've seen anime only spinoffs come and pass in anime and they all were called canon btw these same people always had a biased towards the show in question that made them unable to come up with a logical conclusion it's the same the thing with super but 20 yrs later once the hype and fanboy culture of super dies down enough the stance people have with the show will be nigh identical but canon in most cases just means the original and whatever new installments are popular at the time especially in regards to dragon ball cause there is no established canon so people just consider whatever they like as canon regardless of the facts at hand.
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It's not popularity or status quo, it's Dragon Ball's messed up continuity. You're saying this in a thread about Dragon Ball canon citations.
That Marron thing means nothing. It's just 17 messing up Marron's name—a reference at best. It's likely he has never even met her in his life. However, I do agree about Gregory. It's also worth noting that he's still dead, meaning that DBS can't be a sequel to Kai unless Gregory, Bubbles and King Kai all died again.
Anyway, DBS is also canon to the Broly movie, which screws up the overall continuity of DBS, especially since it retcons a lot of information around Goku's birth and the Saiyans.
By the way, is there any mention of the Tuffles in the original manga?
That Marron thing means nothing. It's just 17 messing up Marron's name—a reference at best. It's likely he has never even met her in his life. However, I do agree about Gregory. It's also worth noting that he's still dead, meaning that DBS can't be a sequel to Kai unless Gregory, Bubbles and King Kai all died again.
Anyway, DBS is also canon to the Broly movie, which screws up the overall continuity of DBS, especially since it retcons a lot of information around Goku's birth and the Saiyans.
By the way, is there any mention of the Tuffles in the original manga?
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Then is the Original DBZ anime Canon?
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