Obito Uchiha (not Juubito) (and those who scale) Speed Downgrade

[KingTempest]

Obito's justification for Sub-Rel is this.

Sub-Relativistic (Able to react to attacks from 6th Gates Guy and Kyūbi Chakra Mode Naruto)

6th Gate Guy is > 5x Mach 2225, which puts him at Sub-Rel.

This Sub-Rel rating scales to a large number of characters.

The issue is that Obito never in his career reacted to 6th Gate Guy. In fact, he was comparable in speed to Base Guy, which is far inferior to 6th Gate Guy.

The only time he "reacted" to them was when Guy and Kakashi saved Naruto (doesn't even look like 6th Gate to be honest, that gate has red skin while this one is regular, I'm only giving them the benefit of the doubt because he has the sweat aura around him), but Obito has shared vision with 6 Jinchuriki which could've compensated for tracking 2 people traveling an extra large distance.

Everyone who scales to Guy's Sub-Rel needs to be downgraded.

 

[Mageman460]

Had to dig down the rabbit hole that is Naruto speed. Seriously that needs to be a CRT by itself. But all Sub Rel characters scale to Might Guy eventually. The only scaling chain that might make sense is scaling to V2 Jinchuriki who fought an unknown number of Gates Guy, but that would still be at least a 5x increase. But the V2 Jinchuriki don't scale to Guy at all, so either they should and then all the Sub Rel characters should scale to them, or no one should.

 

[LordTracer]

The only time he "reacted" to them was when Guy and Kakashi saved Naruto

That is not the Sixth Gate, because Guy opens the Sixth Gate later in Chapter 567 when he and Kakashi fight the jinchūriki.

In this moment, Kakashi is directly shown to move at the same speed as Guy, and the V2 jinchūriki are able to tag Guy and Kakashi, so they definitely scale.

And then of course, in Chapter 636, Obito swaps hands with Kakashi during their fight. So he scales as well.

 

[Lorenzo.r.2nd]

simple explanation is reaction time =/= other speed stats.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Iirc, Obito reacted to Six Paths Madara before he absorbed some of his Six Paths Chakra but i'm not 100% sure it was before.

He also reacted to BM Naruto on 2 occasions.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Hey speaking of Obito, can we make the minor fix to his AP or at least Durability Justification that he can tank Attacks from KCM2 Naruto? He literally had one of KCM2 Naruto's Rasengans blow up inside of him and he was fine.

 

[LordTracer]

His AP and dura scaling will be dealt with later, let’s stay on the topic of speed.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

His AP and dura scaling will be dealt with later, let’s stay on the topic of speed.

Alright. It just bothers me so I wanted to mention it before I forget about it.

 

[M3X_2.0]

As I told you, I'll make a counter. Tomorrow.

 

[Rocker1189]

The only time he "reacted" to them was when Guy and Kakashi saved Naruto (doesn't even look like 6th Gate to be honest, that gate has red skin while this one is regular, I'm only giving them the benefit of the doubt because he has the sweat aura around him), but Obito has shared vision with 6 Jinchuriki which could've compensated for tracking 2 people traveling an extra large distance.

Uhm..this literally doesnt matter as he reacted at the very last moment when he was just about to touch Naruto, that is a still a reaction to them on top of that regardless of what gate Guy is the 5x boost is only from the first gate. Basically the scaling is perfectly fine. Oh also what LordTracer said.

 

[KingTempest]

In this moment, Kakashi is directly shown to move at the same speed as Guy,

Showing consecutive attacks ≠ having relative speeds.

and the V2 jinchūriki are able to tag Guy and Kakashi, so they definitely scale.

That still shows the inconsistency with Base Guy scaling to them as well.
Base Guy gets his speed off of being relative to Kakashi, now Kakashi's relative to his 6th Gate? No

Uhm..this literally doesnt matter as he reacted at the very last moment when he was just about to touch Naruto, that is a still a reaction to them on top of that regardless of what gate Guy is the 5x boost is only from the first gate.

That matters immensely. It's like scaling someone's speed via precog. We see a different instance when rinnegan users react to what they shouldn't have been able to react to because of their linked eyesight. This is nothing different.

Basically the scaling is perfectly fine.

So Base Guy = 6th Gate Guy for keeping up with Obito?

 

[LordTracer]

Showing consecutive attacks ≠ having relative speeds.

They’re literally moving next to each other, and their attacks connect with the jinchūriki at the same time. It’s pretty clear that they’re moving as fast as each other.

That still shows the inconsistency with Base Guy scaling to them as well.

Based on what, exactly? Guy literally never fought the jinchūriki without being in the Sixth Gate.

Base Guy gets his speed off of being relative to Kakashi, now Kakashi's relative to his 6th Gate? No

Come on now, base Guy gets his speed from scaling to Kakashi before the Fourtth War. Pre-Fourth War Kakashi =/= Fourth War Kakashi.

 

[KingTempest]

They’re literally moving next to each other, and their attacks connect with the jinchūriki at the same time. It’s pretty clear that they’re moving as fast as each other.

Based on what, exactly? Guy literally never fought the jinchūriki without being in the Sixth Gate.

He dodged their attack without a single gate activated, and we see him literally moving right next to Kakashi with the exact same speed.
He fought Obito without any Gates consistently and matches attacks that Naruto couldn't, and Naruto complimented his movement.
Could intercept Haku from his mirrors who could intercept Kakashi from stabbing Zabuza.

Yeah I'm not seeing him scale.

Come on now, base Guy gets his speed from scaling to Kakashi before the Fourtth War. Pre-Fourth War Kakashi =/= Fourth War Kakashi.

Why wouldn't Guy scale to Kakashi during the war? Him getting 5x faster out of nowhere doesn't make much sense.

So base Guy = Pre War Kakashi
6th Gate Guy = Mid War Kakashi
Base Guy = Obito
Base Guy = Obito = Kakashi = Sixth Gate Guy.

Base Guy ~ Haku > Kakashi (Speed Wise)

Kakashi has no business scaling, and everyone else doesn't either.

 

[Damage3245]

So base Guy = Pre War Kakashi
6th Gate Guy = Mid War Kakashi
Base Guy = Obito
Base Guy = Obito = Kakashi = Sixth Gate Guy.

There's definitely something funky going on.

 

[KingTempest]

Had to dig down the rabbit hole that is Naruto speed. Seriously that needs to be a CRT by itself. But all Sub Rel characters scale to Might Guy eventually. The only scaling chain that might make sense is scaling to V2 Jinchuriki who fought an unknown number of Gates Guy, but that would still be at least a 5x increase. But the V2 Jinchuriki don't scale to Guy at all, so either they should and then all the Sub Rel characters should scale to them, or no one should.

I won't lie to you, scaling to Guy just seems iffy all in itself.

The base Jinchuriki scaled to KCM for keeping up with KCM.
KCM apparently scales to Sixth Gate Guy.
Version 2 Jins apparently scale to Sixth Gate Guy.

Base Jinchuriki ~ KCM Naruto ~ Sixth Gate Guy ~ Version 2 Jinchuriki


You see how bad the scaling is when people scale to Sixth Gate Guy?

 

[LordTracer]

He dodged their attack without a single gate activated

That’s a cloud of poison gas, which Kakashi was already able to react to while stationary, so like- Also that’s not an attack from one of the jinchūriki, so there are still no examples of base Guy fighting them.

and we see him literally moving right next to Kakashi with the exact same speed.

I’m pretty sure jumping isn’t counted as movement speed, although I might be misremembering that.

I see the inconsistencies here but it’s the War Arc so what did you expect, however that doesn’t mean nobody scales to Guy’s Sub-Relativistic rating. Remember that’s for the First Gate, not the Sixth Gate, and we have people like 30% Kisame forcing Guy to use several gates at once, meaning that he would scale above the First Gate at least.

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

He dodged their attack without a single gate activated, and we see him literally moving right next to Kakashi with the exact same speed.
He fought Obito without any Gates consistently and matches attacks that Naruto couldn't, and Naruto complimented his movement.
Could intercept Haku from his mirrors who could intercept Kakashi from stabbing Zabuza.

Yeah I'm not seeing him scale.

Why wouldn't Guy scale to Kakashi during the war? Him getting 5x faster out of nowhere doesn't make much sense.

So base Guy = Pre War Kakashi
6th Gate Guy = Mid War Kakashi
Base Guy = Obito
Base Guy = Obito = Kakashi = Sixth Gate Guy.

Base Guy ~ Haku > Kakashi (Speed Wise)

Kakashi has no business scaling, and everyone else doesn't either.

Speaking of Kakashi, DMS Kakashi should be higher due to his Kaguya slicing feat

 

[LordTracer]

Can you not derail-

 

[KingTempest]

That’s a cloud of poison gas, which Kakashi was already able to react to while stationary, so like- Also that’s not an attack from one of the jinchūriki, so there are still no examples of base Guy fighting them.

It's from them in their Bijuu form, and from what I'm seeing from the Jinchuriki, their Bijuu forms are faster (if not comparable to) their Version 2 forms. And Kakashi being able to react to it is not an antifeat, since via my scaling he shouldn't be too far off from Base Guy.

I’m pretty sure jumping isn’t counted as movement speed, although I might be misremembering that.

Quick movements in speed (jumping back) is all fair game.

I see the inconsistencies here but it’s the War Arc so what did you expect,

Hehehehe

however that doesn’t mean nobody scales to Guy’s Sub-Relativistic rating. Remember that’s for the First Gate, not the Sixth Gate, and we have people like 30% Kisame forcing Guy to use several gates at once, meaning that he would scale above the First Gate at least.

I won't lie to you, Guy uses 6 gates on everybody. I've never seen him use less than 6.
Guy's full combat speed is emphasized in Asakujaku, which we've never seen anyone react to.

Heck, I don't even know if they would be able to react to that. We see Lee use his first gate and nobody can react, what's to say the same wouldn't be for Guy?

Another issue is Guy's scaling in general. Kisame scales above base Guy's physicals who scales to Obito who scales to Kakashi who apparently scales to Sixth Gate Guy.

 

[LordTracer]

I won't lie to you, Guy uses 6 gates on everybody. I've never seen him use less than 6.
Guy's full combat speed is emphasized in Asakujaku, which we've never seen anyone react to.

Heck, I don't even know if they would be able to react to that. We see Lee use his first gate and nobody can react, what's to say the same wouldn't be for Guy?

Another issue is Guy's scaling in general. Kisame scales above base Guy's physicals who scales to Obito who scales to Kakashi who apparently scales to Sixth Gate Guy.

Guy stated that he “had no choice” before opening the Sixth Gate on Kisame, implying that Gates 1-5 wouldn’t have been enough to beat him. That would warrant a ‘possibly’ rating for Kisame at least.

Really the main inconsistent one is Guy himself. Because you can remove him from the scaling chain and still have Kakashi and Obito remain the same tier since they scale to the Edo Jinchūriki and KCM, respectively. I would suggest giving Guy a War Arc key, but that wouldn’t really help either so meh.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I never thought I'd see such a dishonest arguments like yours, using Base Guy and pretending that he is somewhat consistent with everything. It is not relevant, no matter how much you argue, it will be nothing more than PIS and inconsistencies. Guy was no match for Obito since the beggining, as he was reading all of Guy's moviments and went super casual with everyone there, only when KCM 2 Naruto with Biju Mode shows up, he said he needed to kill them. So you can already forget the bullshit you wrote on your thread about Base Guy being comparable to Obito, and forget Base guy, he is not consistent.

The only time he "reacted" to them was when Guy and Kakashi saved Naruto (doesn't even look like 6th Gate to be honest, that gate has red skin while this one is regular, I'm only giving them the benefit of the doubt because he has the sweat aura around him), but Obito has shared vision with 6 Jinchuriki which could've compensated for tracking 2 people traveling an extra large distance.

It doesn't matter if that's not 6th Gate Guy, even if that's the first Gate, it still 5 times Guy's base form. The 5 times amp comes from the first gate. Having shared vision means absolutely nothing. They only see what the others do, they don't receive any speed amp with shared vision. Seeing something else doesn't remove the merit of having enough speed to dodge. Or do you think that Neji has no merit when dodging something from behind him using his Byakugan? And if, for some reason, you think that's aim dodgin, no, it isn't.

Some feats of people reacting to Guy:

Madara and Obito, both reacted to Fifth Gate Guy and Lee, controlling the Juubi to attack them

1 Tail blocking Gate Guy's attack and attacking him

30% Kisame forcing Guy to use 6th Gate, and 100%/Full Kisame forced Guy to use 6th Gate too.

I won't lie to you, Guy uses 6 gates on everybody. I've never seen him use less than 6.
Guy's full combat speed is emphasized in Asakujaku, which we've never seen anyone react to.

Then you saw above that he used 5th Gate attacking Madara and Guy. And no, he doesn't use 6th Gate on everybody, he only uses when he needs to use. Doesn't make sense to use a technique that destroys your body and **** your muscles "on everybody", he'd just use 1st Gate and call it a day.

Now you are treating Guy as if he were someone super fast, unreachable and cannot be equated. While the other villages know who Guy is and what he can do, Ay is still the fastest ninja in the world, not even Tsunade, who knows what Guy can do, disputes that statement. Madara also fought Ay and called him fast, he was attacked by 5th Gate Lee (Lee in base scales to MHS+, with 5th Gate, Sub-Rel too) and didn't call him fast, same for Guy. They are, at least, faster than 1st Gate Guy. Same for KCM, who can dodge Ay, Kakashi and Obito, Madara, Hashirama, Minato, Tobirama....

 

[Rocker1189]

Was going to reply but M3X got it.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I also agree with M3X that base Guy is far too inconsistent to use here. Unless y'all think that 30% Kisame is stronger and faster than Obito and the Raikage or something?

The justifications are trash, and there are some scaling issues with our speed, which I will get to revising after the AP overhaul. Base Guy being a Top tier in speed is definitely not one of those issues though....

 

[Damage3245]

I'm not going to say I disagree with M3X's assessment completely, but regarding this point specifically :

Madara and Obito, both reacted to Fifth Gate Guy and Lee, controlling the Juubi to attack them

I don't think this is valid.

Rock Lee and Guy jumped down in base.

They activated the 5th Gate as they neared Madara and Obito.

But that isn't going to multiply the speed at which they fall. I would not count this as a feat of "Madara and Obito react to Sub-Relativistic speeds" for that reason.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I think it's different from "fall", they are more like rushing towards Madara and Obito. Lee and Guy's fighting style rely on speed to damage the opponent, without speed, they can't do much, honestly. But whatever, just one point.

 

[Rocker1189]

I won't lie to you, scaling to Guy just seems iffy all in itself.

The base Jinchuriki scaled to KCM for keeping up with KCM.
KCM apparently scales to Sixth Gate Guy.
Version 2 Jins apparently scale to Sixth Gate Guy.

Base Jinchuriki ~ KCM Naruto ~ Sixth Gate Guy ~ Version 2 Jinchuriki


You see how bad the scaling is when people scale to Sixth Gate Guy?

well first thing here base jin in fact do not scale to KCM Naruto idk where you got that from, what they did was spam jutsu and attack from blind spots in which he dodged most things but anything with aoe, the person they kept up with was a base KB after he grabbed a burnt KCM Naruto though he also used one Gyuki tail but i dont think we count that as a boost.

KCM in fact scales to sixth guy. V2 also scale.

So the scaling makes perfect sense.

base jin ~ KB < KCM ~ 6th gate guy ~ v2 Jins.

 

[M3X_2.0]

base jin in fact do not scale to KCM Naruto

He even reacted to them without looking, only sensing

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Also, only Partial Transformation or amped Jin kept up with KCM, I don't recall base Jins doing much of anything in the speed department anyway.

 

[Rocker1189]

Also, only Partial Transformation or amped Jin kept up with KCM, I don't recall base Jins doing much of anything in the speed department anyway.

And even then its hard to call that keeping up, they caught him off guard with jutsu and with the use of rinnegan sight linking.

 

[KingTempest]

Guy was no match for Obito since the beggining, as he was reading all of Guy's moviments and went super casual with everyone there,

You do realize in that scan that Guy was testing him correct? Or else he wouldn't stare at his face the entire time (something he states he doesn't do to sharingan users), and he said "so he's solid when he's absorbing things". Guy was the same one blocking his attacks.

only when KCM 2 Naruto with Biju Mode shows up, he said he needed to kill them. So you can already forget the bullshit you wrote on your thread about Base Guy being comparable to Obito, and forget Base guy, he is not consistent.

Base Guy is consistent, it's the scaling that's wrong.

Having shared vision means absolutely nothing. They only see what the others do, they don't receive any speed amp with shared vision. Seeing something else doesn't remove the merit of having enough speed to dodge. Or do you think that Neji has no merit when dodging something from behind him using his Byakugan? And if, for some reason, you think that's aim dodgin, no, it isn't.

This is wrong beyond comprehension.
Jiraiya completely blitzed a Path, and later when it's emphasized that they have linked eyesight, he blocks him.
Saying shared vision doesn't mean anything is funny, because they can track from further distances.
If I have to run a mile and someone sees me running through a camera, they'll know I'm coming.

Madara and Obito, both reacted to Fifth Gate Guy and Lee, controlling the Juubi to attack them

From that extra far ass distance they jumped. Reacting to him close is not the same as reacting to him far.
And Madara is Relativistic, he's not a good example.
This is like reacting to a car point blank and reacting when it's a mile away. It's not the same thing.

1 Tail blocking Gate Guy's attack and attacking him

I don't see anyone blocking, I see him getting kicked, I guess it's based on interpretation.

30% Kisame forcing Guy to use 6th Gate, and 100%/Full Kisame forced Guy to use 6th Gate too.

The first instance he used it to push the water away when he was about to drown, then the water flew away from his aura.
The second instance, Guy used 6th Gate to travel a far distance then to fight a bunch of sharks, then he used 7th for AOE.

And no, he doesn't use 6th Gate on everybody, he only uses when he needs to use. Doesn't make sense to use a technique that destroys your body and **** your muscles "on everybody", he'd just use 1st Gate and call it a day.

Guy in the series has fought against a handful of people and used Sixth Gates on every single one of them except random fodder ninja.

Now you are treating Guy as if he were someone super fast, unreachable and cannot be equated.

Please quote where I said that.

If you want to say "faster than Guy" as a justification, that's much better, I have no issue with that. I'm saying that Obito does not have a good reason to scale to 6th Gate Guy .

 

[KingTempest]

Guy stated that he “had no choice” before opening the Sixth Gate on Kisame, implying that Gates 1-5 wouldn’t have been enough to beat him. That would warrant a ‘possibly’ rating for Kisame at least.

I explained why he said he "had no choice" above, but this is fair since he took the first attack. That's fair.

Really the main inconsistent one is Guy himself. Because you can remove him from the scaling chain and still have Kakashi and Obito remain the same tier since they scale to the Edo Jinchūriki and KCM, respectively.

I understand tier, I'm not arguing that, it's the speed that's the issue.
Because a lot of people are calling him inconsistent but he's the basis for Sub-Rel scaling.

I would suggest giving Guy a War Arc key, but that wouldn’t really help either so meh.

Wouldn't change much. Thanks for being reasonable

 

[M3X_2.0]

You do realize in that scan that Guy was testing him correct? Or else he wouldn't stare at his face the entire time (something he states he doesn't do to sharingan users), and he said "so he's solid when he's absorbing things". Guy was the same one blocking his attacks.

You missed the point here, completely, and I'm not surprised honestly. The scan linked in the OP showing Guy and Obito fighting, Obito was already reading all of his movements, he didn't start to do this in that specific scene. The chapter has lot of pages of both fighting, Guy did nothing to Obito, couldn't land a hit. All of that after Edo Tensei was undone by Itachi, wich means no Edo Jins, no shared vision.

Base Guy is consistent, it's the scaling that's wrong.

I could be an idiot like you, and do the same thing: pretend that there are no argument/ignore them. But I'm not dishonest like you. Counter the points or concede. Base Guy is inconsistent.

This is wrong beyond comprehension.
Jiraiya completely blitzed a Path, and later when it's emphasized that they have linked eyesight, he blocks him.
Saying shared vision doesn't mean anything is funny, because they can track from further distances.
If I have to run a mile and someone sees me running through a camera, they'll know I'm coming.

Funny, your own scan shows 2 Pains looking at this "blitz" and the Path couldn't react, even with shared vision. Or the shared vision only exists when it supports you? Shared vision doesn't amp your reaction, it allows you to see different angles at the same time, this is literally the only thing the shared vision does.

I don't see anyone blocking, I see him getting kicked, I guess it's based on interpretation.

V2 Jins are drawn with vertical lines on their bodies, when 1 Tail blocks Guy, the lines are horizontal. If the lines are vertical and then horizontal, a movement happened. 1 Tail blocked 6th Gate Guy. He scales.

The first instance he used it to push the water away when he was about to drown, then the water flew away from his aura.
The second instance, Guy used 6th Gate to travel a far distance then to fight a bunch of sharks, then he used 7th for AOE.

Irrelevant. Who said he needed 6th Gate to expand the water to breath? And stop being a ******* lier, Guy wasn't even near to drown, dude didn't even think of that. He used 6th Gate in this scene to destroy the sharks, he previsouly was stomped by Kisame and then Kisame used an offensive ninjutsu against Guy. Guy used 6th Gate because his base is weaker than 30% Kisame and 6th Gate is what he had to use to defeat him not first, not second, third, fourth and fifith, but the sixth. There is nothing like "hur dur he used because he was about to drown", headcanon and bullshit. Second fight, same thing. Used 6th to destroy the sharks, if 1st Gate was enough, he'd use it. His base form was attacked and was sent flying away from a single shark attack, then Kisame create hundreds of them, Guy used 6th. It's obvious, Kisame scales above his 1st Gate.

Guy in the series has fought against a handful of people and used Sixth Gates on every single one of them except random fodder ninja.

So? What's the point? He used 5th, 6th and 7th Gates. All enemies he fought, he used 5th or above because if they are above the others. If he could use 1st or any other, he'd use it. Gates damages your body, makes no sense to use it randomly

Please quote where I said that.

If you want to say "faster than Guy" as a justification, that's much better, I have no issue with that. I'm saying that Obito does not have a good reason to scale to 6th Gate Guy .

I'll not quote anything, jus read your own posts. You are acting like Guy was super fast, faster than any other ninja in the world. I never said you said that, I said you were treating him like that.

Ay and Minato, both called "fastest ninja in the world" in two different eras put them above 1st Gate Guy. V2 Jinchuurikis fought Guy and blocked his attack, KCM dodged Ay, Obito kept up with KCM, Kakashi..

 

[Rocker1189]

Next the base Guy conundrum:

idk why you are saying him in base is faster or as fast as anyone, the instant he gets into the battle he has his gates activated then he used it briefly in a clash with both v2 jins and full tailed beasts.

We see him move away from a slow moving attack where Kakashi and him can have casual conversations.

As for base Guy looking like he is keeping up with people like KCM Naruto, simply put they were deliberately moving together.

Obito never had trouble with any of his attacks and I would argue that he was fighting casually.

Also Guy was never about to drown vs Kisame it isnt even implied he was simply being attacked and then burst out with 6th gate like some fighting game character.

At worst this means that Obito should get a likely in sub-rel. Since being honest he did not move much until he chased after Naruto, he mostly threw shit while generally standing still.

The way I see the scaling now including base guy.


base jin with tails ~ KB < Base Guy <~ Obito ~ KCM ~ 6th gate guy ~ v2 Jins.

 

[LordTracer]

V2 Jins are drawn with vertical lines on their bodies, when 1 Tail blocks Guy

This doesn’t really matter, but that’s actually the Seven-Tails jinchūriki.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Weird, I saw only 1 Tail

 

[LordTracer]

Weird, I saw only 1 Tail

I think only shows one, but the Seven-Tails is the only jinchūriki that can fly.

 

[Damage3245]

I could be an idiot like you, and do the same thing: pretend that there are no argument/ignore them. But I'm not dishonest like you. Counter the points or concede. Base Guy is inconsistent.

Please do not call other users idiots.

 

[KingTempest]

The original point has been debunked. This can be closed

 

[Damage3245]

Okay, I'll close this.