TyranoDoom30
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What about Dark Area inhabitants from Digimon?
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Lemme grab the quotes thenWhoops, this one slipped past me.
Besides acausality and physical nonexistence, this doesn't give us anything as far as the standard types are concerned. I would say Nature Type 1 (or maybe Nature type 3 as we are relying on a description of something undescribable?) and Aspect Type 5, with corresponding statements.
SCP-3930 is a static void located within a 1km perimeter near Usinsk
SCP-3930 does not emit or absorb light or sound, does not have shape or texture, cannot be passed through, cannot be interacted with, cannot be manipulated in any way, and has no dimension.
In summary,
SCP-3930 does not exist.
SCP-3930 is not a physical location, point in time, singularity, vacuum, extradimensional space, meta construct, or any other extant descriptive, as a requirement for any such descriptive is existence, which SCP-3930 lacks.
SCP-3930 cannot be said to be anything, regardless of its perceived properties.
As SCP-3930 does not exist, it cannot contain anything that exists. Due to this, anything that attempts to pass through or enter SCP-3930, which is impossible due to SCP-3930 being nonexistent, will also cease to exist.
>D-124: It’s further than I thought it would be. I think I’m starting to get it. Are you listening?>3930/7/4: Are you there yet?
>Dr. Vasiliev: Know about it? What is there to know? There’s nothing there. Nothing for us to measure, nothing for us to test.Dr. Kuzkin: What do you know about it?
Dr. Vasiliev: Ah… (Pauses) Perception is key. Everything you can test for will tell you there is an absence there, yes? But you look at it and you still see forest and trees and even animals. Walk far enough in, and you might see a building, or people. But none of it is real. By the time you see the building, in whatever shape it takes, you’re not real either. You have become little more than the reflection of yourself perceived by someone else’s mind. This thing, this void… (pauses) It is a hateful mirror. It desires you to look at it. The more who look, the more hateful it becomes.
Dr. Vasiliev: When you approach it, you will start to hear it. So faint it might be nothing, or less. But a noise. Something queer has happened. Human minds have evolved to see patterns where there are none, so when cast over a space where there is nothing at all, the mind begins to create something from nothing. What you hear is something rudimentary, an almost imperceptible sentience. It is a flash along the edge of the void as our minds attempt to perceive something that isn’t there. And it hates.
Dr. Vasiliev: Because there were too many of us. Each member of our team cognizant of the void, each trying to perceive it. These flashes, these tiny screamers, eventually they began to… to bind together. Make no mistake, Dr. Kuzkin, they are not real. They are to the neutrino what the neutrino is to us, less than nothing. But they are somehow aware of their nothingness, and they are hateful. Their existence, I believe, is torment. They hate the universe for being. They hate themselves for being. And they hate us for making them be. They are nothing but hate. (Pauses) Given enough time, and with enough of us trying to look into this void, something crawled out of it. (Pauses) Afterwards, there were ten of us. The anomaly has been stable since.
>Dr. Vasiliev: They are not the same thing. The void is what it is, a region of non-existence. It is unfathomable and unalterable, and we know nothing about it. But the pattern screamers are, yes, in some way intelligent. But they are only intelligent because they are us. They are our reflection in this hateful mirror.Dr. Kuzkin: You talk about this void like it’s some kind of intelligent creature. How can this nothingness be something intelligent?
1. Obviously this is AE type 1 rather than NEP, and AE is still existence1. Existing as a pure concept is not NEP?
2. Existing as nothingness also does not grant NEP?
1. Existing as anything doesn't grant NEP. Not existing as something grants NEP. He has a concept that exists and, according to you, he has a soul. Likewise I assume he has a mind and, without evidence of the contrary, I assume he has information. If he does exist in all these aspects, and only doesn't exist at the physical level, then we define it as incorporeality not NEP. Mere physical nonexistence not qualifying as NEP anymore was one of the changes to the page people requested.1. Existing as a pure concept is not NEP?
2. Existing as nothingness also does not grant NEP?
I don't know them. Explain me the details and I can make a guess.What about Dark Area inhabitants from Digimon?
I looked through them and... honestly, I would say more or less the same as my last post. At best you could additionally give it Mental Nonexistence (Aspect Type 3) due to being indicated to have no mind... although that's a given for what, in my understanding, is a location.Lemme grab the quotes then
And all of these must be taken in context with the original summary of what 3930 isthe context behind the next couple of quotes is of someone who "entered" 3930 (D-124)
>D-124: Alright, I went down the stairs, and now I’m in… another room. No, wait. Is it? (Pauses) Hey, I forgot to mention earlier, but my skin feels really strange.
3930/7/4: What do you mean?
>D-124: Sort of chalky. And when I brush my hand against my arm, it just sort of uh… I don’t know how to describe it. It’s like it just stops being there for a minute.
>D-124: Like… you ever listen to static?
>3930/7/4: Sure.
>D-124: Sometimes you hear things in the white space, yeah? Your brain filling in the gaps. This sound is like that sound, the sound your brain makes, only without the static. It’s really not very loud, but it’s really noticeable. (Pauses) I think, uh… let me see. There should be a door out of here, somewhere. Let me look.
>D-124: It’s further than I thought it would be. I think I’m starting to get it. Are you listening?>
>3930/7/4: Are you listening?
>D-124: Good, don’t stop listening. I’m down below here, now. See, I thought the things I was seeing were something to do with me, but they’re really not. I’m not really seeing them. (Pauses) Yeah, this makes a lot more sense. Not to me, but maybe to you. Maybe it doesn’t matter. (Pauses) So you know what I said earlier about listening to static, right? The same sort of thing is happening with my eyes now. Filling in the blanks.
>3930/7/4: What do you see?
>D-124: There was a hole in the world here, and this place got pulled down into it, like a drain. People too. I can actually see it, now, the whole building, drawn into the tiny little… spot. Fracturing out and broken. (Pauses) Alright, yeah. Yeah yeah yeah. This is a response. Like a reaction. Nature doesn’t abhor a vacuum, but people do. Your minds aren’t made for this, right? You stare at the stars and see things, because that’s what you do. Making sense of it. Order is a man-made concept.
>3930/7/4: Can you describe the space you’re in now?
>D-124: I’m not.
>3930/7/4: What do you mean?
>D-124: You know I’m not, actually. As soon as you realize it, this’ll all be over.
>3930/7/4: As soon as I realize what?
>D-124: You just have to look away from the screen and you stop seeing the, uh… you stop seeing the patterns. I’m… if you look away, you’ll stop seeing me, and you’ll… you’ll stop hearing me, and that’s what I’m hearing, that’s what I’ve been hearing this whole time, yes, that makes sense, because if you blink you lose it and once it’s gone it’s nothing again, so they try to get your attention and if they lose it they’re nothing, and-
>3930/7/4: Slow down, I need you to-
>D-124: -no no no, you look away and the patterns go away. You stop listening and you don’t hear them. They’re nothing, and now I’m… don’t you get it?
>3930/7/4: Are-
>At this point, there is a minor dip in electrical systems as the on-site generator activates. Both 3930/7/4 and 3930/3/3 immediately become aware that the audio transmitter is no longer functional. Attempts to contact D-124 fail.
The following with an interview with someone who was researching 3930 for decades (Dr. Andrei Vasiliev)
>Dr. Kuzkin: What is it?
>Dr. Vasiliev: It isn’t anything, not in any measurable sense. It’s a static, uncompromised void. A space where nothing exists.
>Dr. Vasiliev: Know about it? What is there to know? There’s nothing there. Nothing for us to measure, nothing for us to test.
>Dr. Vasiliev: They are not the same thing. The void is what it is, a region of non-existence. It is unfathomable and unalterable, and we know nothing about it. But the pattern screamers are, yes, in some way intelligent. But they are only intelligent because they are us. They are our reflection in this hateful mirror.
There is a mix upWhat does "existing as nothingness" mean exactly? You said he had a soul (which is darkness, whatever that means) and that he is a concept of darkness (so he has a concept). Basically, from what you said he exists in many special ways, but you haven't really told me anything about how he doesn't exist.
Here's Executor's blogI don't know them. Explain me the details and I can make a guess.
Have a soul mean not NEP, because NEP require you to lack thing that neccessary to your existent but somehow you still exist, having soul mean said character still have a neccesary part for his or her existentThe first three dude is Ootake and he exist as pure nothingness he embodies non-existence since that is his craving but he does have a soul.
Have a soul mean not NEP, because NEP require you to lack thing that neccessary to your existent but somehow you still exist, having soul mean said character still have a neccesary part for his or her existent
That blog is useless now, it's by far in the group of most outdated of my blogs
Yeh, Graham nothingess and is accepted as Nature 2I guess one can argue that if the source is accepted as concept then the source of nothingness is the concept of nothingness... well, in that case Nature Type 2 is fine instead of Type 1, I suppose.
DT also said this, and you need incorporeal to count as NEP for the new standards which to my knowledge, Anos and Graham don't have.Actually, this depends a bit on what you intend to list exactly. I only thought of it now, but Anos himself isn't physically nonexistent, right? Technically we don't list NEP for physically existent characters.
It might be best to list it as Resistance or Immunity to Concept Manipulation Type 2, with the justification of "Anos' source is fused with Graham's nothingness (Nonexistent Physiology Nature Type [Graham's Nature Type], 3, Aspect Type 2), and he is capable of using the latter's nothingness as a "shield", which converts anything it interacts with into nothingness, to protect himself or to attack".
Graham is pure nonexistence he doesn't have a body, mind, sould and even his concept of nothingness was further reduce to nothingness by venuzdonoa and DT said that we could list it asDT also said this, and you need incorporeal to count as NEP for the new standards which to my knowledge, Anos and Graham don't have.
and check anos descriptionwith the justification of "Anos' source is fused with Graham's nothingness (Nonexistent Physiology Nature Type [Graham's Nature Type], 3, Aspect Type 2), and he is capable of using the latter's nothingness as a "shield", which converts anything it interacts with into nothingness, to protect himself or to attack".
Why Graham will have limited NEP? According to what DT said, Anos can't have CM2 Resistance or Immunity (technically yes), but the problem comes from the fact that Anos uses Graham's nothigness to defend against any attack, not only conceptual attacks, so it wouldn't make sense that anos will only gain immunity against type 2 conceptual attacks. And any attack is reduced to nothignessActually Anos can't have NEP, Graham will have Limited NEP
Anos only has NEP for his source (which is incorporeal), and it's specifically stated as such in his justification. I did not list it as resistance/immunity to concept manip because Anos can also use Graham's nothingness to defend against attacks which do not directly attack the source (he "exposes" his source to the attack, enabling the nothingness to offset the attack).DT also said this, and you need incorporeal to count as NEP for the new standards which to my knowledge, Anos and Graham don't have.
DT saidThat still doesn't answer the question on why he has Nature Type 2 when it wasn't accepted, and again the person themselves need to be incorporeal for that to count in the new standard.
And Graham Nature type is 2 and Anos description is Limited Nonexistent Physiology Nature Types 2, 3 & Aspect Type 2Nonexistent Physiology Nature Type [Graham's Nature Type], 3, Aspect Type 2
DT said that we could use that so argue with himNo it doesn’t, he doesn’t have a non physical form which is the bare bones needed for the new NEP.
Dt said thisYou haven’t really responded to DT’s comment above where he questioned if it counts for Anos since he lacks incorporeal, and also being conceptually nonexistent doesn’t count for type 2 nature, that’s type 1 nature, aspect type 2.
There is no problem with Graham's NEP as this is the concept of nothingness and he can further be reduced nothingness after his concept of nothigness was destroyedI guess one can argue that if the source is accepted as concept then the source of nothingness is the concept of nothingness... well, in that case Nature Type 2 is fine instead of Type 1, I suppose.
DT said that it could also be listed as immunity to CM 2, but this is not possible since in the novel it is clearly shown that Anos can defend himself from any attack not only conceptual so it does not make sense that it is only an immunity to CM 2 as it would be an anti featNonexistent Physiology Nature Type [Graham's Nature Type], 3, Aspect Type 2
Null discussed it with DT and he accepted Nature Type 2, moreover Graham is not simply "conceptual nonexistent" this is the concept of nonexistence that is already nonexistent, and even this concept of nonexistence can be further destroyed and remain as an incomprehensible nothingness without reason or logic, this being the true nature of Graham.That doesn’t make any sense as being conceptually nonexistent is an Aspect type, not a nature type anymore.
Anti Feat would be to list it as Immunity to CM2, if we list it as immunity then even a physical attack could destroy Graham's nothingess since according to it only protects against CM2 and not against any other attack, but in the novel it is shown that it protects against any attack not only conceptual attacks. Another point would be if Anos' body is destroyed, it would remain only as a source of nothingness and Anos can act as a source and attack, so in other words it would be completely non-existent until he wants to restore his body.What about the mechanic of him using it as a shield makes it an anti feat? That’s not how anti feats work.
Did you not read my comment..?That still doesn't answer the question on why he has Nature Type 2 when it wasn't accepted, and again the person themselves need to be incorporeal for that to count in the new standard.
No it doesn’t, he doesn’t have a non physical form which is the bare bones needed for the new NEP.
Again, his source is incorporeal, and ONLY his source has NEP (specifically, he utilises Graham's nothingness to achieve Paradoxical Nonexistence).You haven’t really responded to DT’s comment above where he questioned if it counts for Anos since he lacks incorporeal-
The physical body of every character with this ability has to be nonexistent. That means that users always are Incorporeal, unless maybe they physically qualify for Paradoxical Nonexistence. That means that robots or similar don't qualify for spiritual or mental nonexistence, as they physically exist. Incorporeality alone, however, is not enough. The character has to additionally have at least one combination of the following types:
When Anos destroyed Graham Anos said that Graham ceased to exist but he felt that something still existed and when he realized that, then Graham's source of nothigness appeared, his body, mind, soul did not exist he became complete nonexistent, there was only his nothingness that some time later Anos destroyed Graham's concept of nothingness and reduced it to Graham's true nature which was an incomprehensible, without logic or reason, meaningless nothigness.@Dereck03 Is it stated that Graham is in a state where he's neither existing or nonexisting in that state or no? Because that's kind of important to get Type 2 Ideal.
Graham has a "normal" source, like all other characters. Once that source is destroyed, his Source of Nothingness remains. Indeed, his Source of Nothingness is the lack of his normal source, which is why his Source of Nothingness doesn't function like other sources (he no longer has a body, soul/spirit, mind, or even existent magic power, despite having this "source"). This Source of Nothingness is definitely completely nonexistent tho.
This Source of Nothingness can be further reduced to nothing as well, after which a pure nothingness remains, described as "nothingness without reason/logic".
As far as I know, you can keep destroying this nothingness and further reduce it to nothingness, but as long as there is nothing, Graham will be able to reform his existence again. (This isn't the case in the presence of Venuzdonoa tho.)
The following is basically why Graham qualifies for nature type 2:Is it stated that Graham is in a state where he's neither existing or nonexisting in that state or no? Because that's kind of important to get Type 2 Ideal.
This is simply incorrect.That sounds like a forcefield rather than him being one with the nonexistent source if he's just using it as a barrier against attacks.
Are you gonna keep misreading my comments..?This is also needed to qualify for NEP, which again is something Graham and Anos lack on their page.
Idk how "he "exposes" his source to the attack, enabling the nothingness to offset the attack" (regarding attacks which do not directly attack the source) makes it seem like a barrier, but understood.Your description on the Source being used makes it sound like a barrier against attacks rather than it being an actual resistance. Maybe make it a bit clearer next time?
I personally wouldn't really have a problem with rating his NEP as limited, but I'm not completely sure if it should actually be rated as limited.So he literally has to lose his body in order to get this in the first place? Then Graham shouldn't have flat out NEP and be limited only when he loses his body since he only has flat out NEP on his page with no incorporeality.
Then rating Graham's NEP as limited should probably be fine.
Alright, but as said, if they have a concept and a soul it's not looking good for NEP.There is a mix up
The darkness dude is the one that exists as pure concept which would be AE from what you said I guess
The other dude is Ootake and he exist as pure nothingness he embodies the concept of non-existence since that is his craving but he does have a soul.
That blog is long as hell and you're a smart lad. Which types of NEP do you think they should get and why?There's another blog linked at the bottom of the Digimon Physiology page that explains better (Although a bit with lack of context that I plan to explain on my new blog)
It should be noted for them that this only applies before they are summoned into the physical world.Demons in Tensura doesnt have physical body,they also originally doesnt have soul and mind
so Nature Type 1 Aspect Type 1 & 3 ?
The reason I suggested to write it as resistance/immunity to attacks on his source (i.e. concept manip) in the end, is that we can't really list "NEP just for his source" by the current rules.Did you not read my comment..?
Anos ONLY has NEP for his source (which is incorporeal). His source is fused with Graham's nothingness, which was accepted as nature type 2 earlier in this thread, which is why nature type 2 was added to Anos' justification and directly links to Graham's page. Also, characters who have Paradoxical Nonexistence don't always have to be incorporeal, as stated on the NEP page.
Graham has NEP either when he activates it via magic or when his source is destroyed, and in both cases his physical body, soul/spirit, and mind is nonexistent (and incorporeal).
Again, his source is incorporeal, and ONLY his source has NEP (specifically, he utilises Graham's nothingness to achieve Paradoxical Nonexistence).
I already explained in my earlier comment why it isn't accurate to list this as resistance/immunity to concept manip.
To be sure: Them having no conscioussness in the unsummoned state means they do not think/make decisions, right? So unsummoned demons are basically in an incapacitated state?
I don't really know the context here, but if I guess from the limited information provided isn't what they mean regarding nonexistence here people that we deal with people that have no past?I have some characters that are in a state where they're neither existing nor not existing. Does this count for Idealistic Nonexistence?
Isn't this more them being an exception to the "unsummoned demons have no minds"-rule, than them having paradoxically nonexistent minds?well yeah basically,however irregular being like venom(he doesnt have a profile) could think and behave as if he have a mind
Guy and Diablo was stated to have a rivalry ini the underworld before they was summoned,Diablo also said that there where a few strong people he have fought before (refering to Ultima,Testarossa,Carerra),meaning those character could think while being mindless since Diablo fought them before they were summoned
is this nature type 3?