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Kaminogi haruka by takemaru101
Do not be fooled. This little girl is massively stronger than the average / baseline Multiversal+ (2-A) Character...

Hello everyone ! This is Minus the Child of Omnipotence ( Sincerely doubt you remember me by this name ... If you do however ... you have been on this wikia for a while .) / The 2nd Existential Seed. I have been thinking over and over about Haruka Kaminogi , my favorite tier 2-A on the site bar none . And i noticed some things that might change her tier to " At least 2-A " & possibly even " At least High 2-A " [ I found evidence within the series that some entities are Higher-Dimensional . ] . It is not that big of a change though ( HIgh 2-A possibly, but not really, as the evidence i found was in the series consistently . ) ... but i will explain why i beleive it is relatively applicable. This is also based on what Haruka has showed, and how insanely casual her feats are , similar to a certain caped baldy . So without a further ado , let's get these suggestions underway !

At least 2-A Noein

The main reason is : How ridiculously , insanely casual her feat that placed her at 2-A was. Essentially she re-created the entire multiverse instantaneously, which is filled with an infinite number of universes. In fact, she did this with less than an afterthought apparently , and was unaware of what she did until an higher being told her that she re-created the infinite universes that was effected by Shangri-La . We have " At least " by characters whom did said feat to make them that tier without any effort / little to no effort . Saitama even has that as that was considered his low end, and all of his feats were insanely casual . Like Saitama , the fact she did this without even being consciously aware , and having little to no control over her powers until the very end of the series , supports adding " At least " to her title. This would essentially mean thats she did this effortlessly , without even a portion of her powers being used for the feat . If she was using at least using even a portion of her powers, she would have noticed that she used them consciously, yet was subconsciously using them the entire series until EoS ( EoS is post-reset of multiverse / post-End of Noein , not anytime before ) . Not to mention that when she was absorbed , she effortlessly resisted Noein once being convinced that what she was doing was wrong , basically supporting how easily she is above Noein . This is the strongest proof i have for the " At least " being added.

So her new reasoning should be : At least 2-A ( Without even being consciously aware, instantly re-created the entire multiverse effortlessly , which said multiverse contains an infinite number of universes . Immeasurably/Incomprehensibly Superior to Noein , who merged the each of the universes from the Multiverse [ which are infinite in number ] into Shangri-La, and destroyed them to the point nothing was left . ) I was going to mention " Possibly Far Higher " part , but apparently a mod deleted that part from Saitama's tier , so as such i won't mention it unless you guys return it or mention it ( Which would be appreciated, but not recommended or forced to do so . ) . Keep in mind this is not attempting to upgrade, just simply to discuss the possibilities that such casual 2-A can be given that slight upgrade.

At least High 2-A Noein :

There are also subtle hints throughout the series of even the low-mid tiered entities ( Such as Kamasu and his crew ) within the verse being Higher-Dimensional compared the Infinite Multiverse :

The leader of Kamasu's group said that the world ( multiverse ) is nothing but a lower dimension.

They have to use technology to implant themselves in a lower-dimensional plane . However, we do not have any implication this drains their power, but they are limited to what they can do in the lower-dimensional world because they don't want to destroy it by accident, which they almost do several times .

They ( Karasu and his group ) have visited other dimensions numerous times . They explicitly differentiate Dimensions & the Multiverse at several points in the story .

They even said that Kamasu fighting one of the members would disrupt the very fabric of the multiverse/world ( they use world and multiverse interchangeably in the anime, it can be confusing . ) .

Haruka has no trouble existing within the HIgher-Dimension that Kamasu's group is in , which was stated to be beyond the multiverse. Also implying Higher - Dimensional . It is safe to assume that these guys are Higher-Dimensional, but to what degree is unknown. The requirements for High 2-A do not neccessarily mean they have to be stated to be 5th dimensional, they just have to naturally exist in areas above an Infinite Multiverse .

However, considering the fact that they essentially exists in an at least 1-Dimension above the 2-A Multiverse , they fit the requirements for High 2-A bare minimally ( as we do not have enough information for how many dimensions they encompass/ are above the Infinite Multiverse, as they call it a lower-dimension, rather than just straight up 1-dimension below us . ) .

Many profiles that are High 2-A do not specify 5-Dimensional , but specify that their realm they naturally exists within is above the space-time of an Infinite Multiverse. They do as such directly within the first or last episode of Noein .

As such , i believe that At least High 2-A ,likely Far Higher for the mid tiers / low tiers is possible. Like mentioned , they are essentially low through mid-tiered entities within the verse , with Noein being ridiculously above them, seeing them as nothing but an nuisance , stopped Kamasu's attack with a hand , and vanishing the whole group back to the higher-dimension from hence they came from. For the god tiers ( Noein and Haruka ) , it would be : At the very least High 2-A , likely Far Higher . So it would be :

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mid Tiers / Low Tiers :

Karasu ( & teamates/allies ) : At least High 2-A , likely Far Higher ( Considered thhe Infinite Multiverse like the others as an lower-dimension" many times . Exists in an higher-dimension at least 1-dimension above the Infinite Multiverse, Is implied to have traveled through higher-dimensions above the Multiversewithout any noticeable trouble. Used dimension pipes in order to make sure their existence in this lower-dimensional Multiverse would not destroy the multiverse. An fight between Kamasu and Teamate [ even though both were toying around ] would destroy the Infinite Multiverse . )

Speed : Infinite , possibly Immeasurable ( They can naturally exist in an area above the Infinite Multiverse, that is both outside and beyond the space-time of the Infinite Multiverse Implied to have ventured through other Higher-DImensions without effort . )

Warriors ( Forgot their names. They are entities whom Noein summons to attack Karasu & Attori. ) : At least High 2-A , likely Far Higher ( Each of these entities are explicitly mentioned to be a threat to them by Karasu's Leader . Each of these entities have in the past given them much trouble , and has even nearly killed them on some occassions. )

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God Tiers

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Noein :
At least High 2-A , likely Far Higher '( Stopped Kamasu with an casual hand , who like his leader naturally exists in an higher-dimension that is at least 1 dimension above the Infinite Multiverse. Called Kamasu & his Allies a nuisance several times, and no-selled Kamasu's efforts at hurting him . Banished entites comparable to Kamasu effortlessly , with no effort on his own part. . Naturally exists within a Higher-Dimension that even Karasu's Leader cannot find . Heavily implied that he considers the Warriors as nothing more than fodder servants to aid him in getting the Dragon Torque. )

Haruka Kaminogi : At the very least High 2-A , likely Far Higher ( Effortlessly/Subconsciously resisted Noein's advances , and was subconsciously destroying his existence without being aware she did as such . Noein casually was no-selling and one-shotting an group entities whom are at the very least 1-Dimension above the Infinite Multiverse , and was completely unaffected by their assaults. Haruka has not even used even a portion of her true power, as all of her previous feats were subconscious and when she was unaware of her true extent of her capabilities . )


Speed '': Infinite , possibly 'Immeasurable'''' ( Both of them can casually keep up with those whose speeds are outside / beyond the space-time of an Infinite Multiverse. So they are each Incomprehensibly above the speeds of those who are far beyond the space-time of Far above baseline Infinite/Immeasurable speeds. )

Powers and Abilities :

Incorporeal ( Due to Higher-Dimensionality, and essentially being only a ghost. ) .

Ability to effect Incorporeal entities ( Karasu , Attori , Haruka , and Noein all apply. Each of them can only be effected by attacks on their level of existence , as other attacks go straight through. )

Existence Erasure ( Haruka mainly. Erased Noein subconscious from existence completely. More than likely is straight up reality warping. )

Conceptual Manipulation ( Haruka mainly. She recreate the multiverse instantaneously, which would include concepts such as ace & Time. )

Higher-Dimensional Manipulation ( Applies to Karasu , Attori , Haruka & Noein, due to their obvious Higher-Dimensional status and their ability to effect each other with their attacks. )

( I will edit this as I go along. As for mods, pleases leave this open, as I will be more than likely trying to find more hax for the verse, and would like for this to be a thread to have all of my revisions placed at nice. .)
 
Sorry for the early bump, but i forgot to mention something . They explicitly mention that the Dragon Torque exists outside of time. Shuld that translate to reaction speed from the Dragon Torque to Infinite or Immeasurable ?
 
I agree with the "at least". As for the Dragon Torque, this does sound like infinite speed. Could you post a scan for it though?
 
It was in the first series of episodes, like1-10 . I remember that much. I'll have to look at ti, but i remember without a shadow of a doubt they mentioned it within the first few episodes.
 
Bump only to give episodes that Kat wanted .

Episode 2 . Most of the entities in the verse ( yes even low-tiers ) can move freely within the confines of an halted [ stopped time ] timeline . They mention that she is outside of time in the English Sub , not the Dub This would apply for the lower-tiers as well, which are far eclipsed by the Dragon Torque . So, if we assume that they are not just immune to time stop , but due to their heavily implied higher-dimensional nature ( as they mention that they need things to anchor themselves to this reality, as they are above it normally ) essentially She is massively above those who also naturally have infinite speed ( This should also scale to Noein , as even without Haruka should scale to Karasu , who can naturally exists outside time . )

Either the last episode or next to last episode : There was even a time where Haruka could converse with someone in a world that was beyond and outside the infinite multiverse and it's space & time . Basically the same as Bloom's reasons for being Immeasurable . Would being able to move in a world outside time & space of their multiverse using the Dragon Torque Immeasurable or Infinite ?
 
Also, I think that everyone should only be "at least High 2-A". It's unknown if the mid tiers are above 5D. However, causally curbstomping a High 2-A isn't enough to get the "possibly higher". Keep in mind that The Authority and Beerus are both 3D beings. The difference can be massive even within the same dimensional plane.

Idk if this is infinite or immeasurable. But I think that "infinite, possible immeasurable" could work, like for Bloom. But "At least Immeasurable" is a big no, because they aren't omnipresent, and they are definitely not Irrelevant
 
The reason I m putting far higher is that we aren't 100% sure how many dimensions above the Infinite Multiverse they are, not because of how easily they curbstomp. Plus, Noein & Haruka scale to this casually, hence them getting far higher like the mid tiers. There is more evidence suggesting they are above 5-D, as rather than callinit 1-D below themselves, they call it a lower-dimension.

Hmm... Okay. Infinite , possibly Immeasurable seems alright to me for both. But both are higher than average for the speed tier however, due to how insanely casual they are against those who have this speed.

Like I said, them reaching High 2-A bare minimum is nuts.
 
Thing is that "far higher" is 1-C, which is 8-D. "Likely/possibly higher" would be a better course of action.

To further elaborate about the AP thing, think about sealed Zeedmillenniummon. He is immensely stronger than the true forms of the demon lords, who are infinitely above their avatars, who are 2-A. Only got "at least 2-A"

The fact that they scale casually from this can be noted on their profiles, we do something similar for Bernkastel, who is far faster than the average Immeasurable
 
I understand. I do not want to rule out the possibility that it is far higher, hence far higher, as opposed to likely higher.

I see. Nw , the problem is that my very reason for the " At the very least " for Haruka is because allnof her feats in the series, even her unfathomable superiority over Noein and Karasu were subconscious . She was never aware of her powers like Zeed was, the At the very least is to show just how effortless being She is above them. Noein banished them with no hand, each who are at least 1-Dimension above spacetime of an Infinite Multiverse. They scale on the extremely high-end , hence their " At the very least "

As long as we not on both Noein's & Haruka's profiles that they are far faster than beings on this level of speed , I am fine with it.
 
I am too tired to properly read through the initial wall of text, but Kaltias usually has good judgement.
 
@2nd

So, as you got me interested in Noein, i'll start watching it. I don't really like debating the cosmology of a series without familiarity with it.

The speed part is alright for now. I'll comment again when I have some more informations about the AP
 
I'll trust your opinion, if your trusted by Ant. Keep in mind that I have rewatched the series at least twice now, so I know it's plot and true purpose many times over. And, I have just recently re-watched it., so my view is fresh. It is a very confusing verse ( it took me 3 times rewatching episodes to get it's cosmology and everything right ... It is a Ghost in the Shell basically ,, So yeah it is very confusing. ) , so please let me know if you have any questions.
 
Sorry for the Bump... But i am curious . But have you ( Kaltlias ) found any inconsistencies ? The only reason i asking is becasue you seem to be responsive on other threads .
 
I watched the first 4 episodes, for now the only thing is that they called it "different dimension" instead of "lower" (dubbed version). They seemed to treat it as a parallel universe instead of a different dimensional plane. If the dubbed and subbed version keep conflicting, we may need a translation later. But I watched only this for now.
 
And I trust you. I'm just saying that if they conflict we will have to find out which one is right
 
I understand. FYI , The 2-A feat ( mentioning the Multiverse is Infinite ) , is in the Sub, i am pretty sure the Dub doesn't even mention it . The Sub is very hard to find now, since they took it off of youtube. I usually assume the original is the canon source, with the Dub changing things around to make it more understandable, but cutting some of the metaphysical aspects of the verse. Which is why i mentioned quotes from the sub , not the dub . I have firestick, so i shall search for the sub ( original ) , and compare it to the dub ( youtube variation / remade version ) . If there are more metaphysical aspects in the sub, i shall use the sub. If not, we'll have to go with the watered down version ( dub ) .
 
So the dub has received the DB treatment huh? I'll look for the sub if possible then
 
If you can't find it, it is fine. It definitely has been given that treatment. It is a shame though. Anyways, i have been trying to find it for a while, all of the feats i presented wee from the sub , not the dub . If you can't find it , i am honestly not sure what we should do. Should we just apply the changes , then attempt to find it later to confirm it ( Because i have been looking for a good while. I still can't find it ) ? I think that is the best course of action if we can't find the sub.
 
Lemme check a thing. Maybe Dynit did its job properly and the dubbed version of my country isn't watered down
 
I see. Hopefully you do fine it . Anyways...

Episode 6 is High 2-A even in the Dub. In the Dub, Dimensions=Universes. They explicitly mention that Lacryma is above all diimensions , which are said by the women to be infinite... Yeah. High 2-A Noein is still a thing, even in the waterdowned version

In the Sub however... I might as well mention it. It is ridiculous , and the more i think about it, the more i want to freak out about it. I did not mention it because it is completely ridiculous , but in the sub , they have the same series of events: Lacryma being above all possible dimenions, which are infiite , and mentioning the multiverse as infinite. However, they differentiate by calling Dimensions an infinite number ( spatio-temporal , calling these dimensions higher-dimensional ) in the sub , yet also saying an infinite number of worlds ( Universes ) that Haruka exists in, as if they were completely separate . Do you understand what that means for how powerful the subbed version is ? I am seriously not lying to you, not one bit. It surprised me so much, i was making sure that i was not lying to myself, but i remember it as clear as it can be. That means... Oh god...
 
Sub is one number higher than dub.... but if we can't find it, we will have to go with the High 2-A of the dub. This hurts me physically.
 
I understand, it hurt me oh so bad. An essentially 1-A Noein ( it would be one of 2-5 anime's that have 1-A's in it essentially ) and we cannot find the sub ... Dang it ... But hey at least my tiering is correct at least. My reason is they mention that the Indfinite Dimensions and Infinite Worlds are all together. Lacryma is above all the dimensions and by extension the worlds . They scan freely interact with this world. Wow.... It troubles me that an Irrevelant & 1-A Noein is not in the dub, but in the sub , that we can't find . I may just be pulling straws, but couldn't we just put the sub & dub under different keys for each character ?
 
I see. That is a shame. I guess I will continue to look for it. I will definitely let you know if I find it. As of now : until & when I find the subbed version : At least High 2-A is fine.
 
For what it's worth it, I approve the "at least High 2-A", the speed, and all the powers but Conceptual Manipulation.

Recreating a multiverse doesn't need CM. Reality Warping is enough.
 
After watching the sub of Episode 6 & EPisode 24... Both clearly mention that they are a part of the multiverse. Infinite versions of Haruka exists on many levels of dimensions , mentioned by the sub and the dub actually . Yeah, Sub point to 1-A a lot more than in the Dub [ they imply it in the same episodes, but not to the degree that the Sub has ] , by differentiating between Dimensions and Universes in those episodes . They aren't one in the same to the Subbed version, they are completely different. With this new information.. The AP is 1-A , and the Speed is : Irrevelant , as even the fodder can move in a area outside of all dimensioned space-time . Yeah Noein is beginning to look a lot like Umineko ... lol.
 
I... don't feel comfortable accepting an upgrade THAT big without an intimate knowledge of the series. And I really recommend making a blog post about it. People will request explanations. A lot of explanations
 
Ironically both the Dub & Sub show the possibilities of an 1-A Noein , but Sub puts more detail into it than the Dub does . Don't worry : You won't have to . I understand this is a massive jump. I will tell you this : At least High 2-A for now, and when i gets added , i will work on a detailed blog explaining the series and it's inconsistencies. I will also explain dimension scaling and who scales, and whyDifferent Spatial-Dimensions in sub =/= Different Universes from Dub . Due to having the Subbed version at my fingertips , all of my claims wil be thoroughly backed up within the storyline . I will also attempt to explain why they consistently reference dimensions instead of universes , and the feats and who scales directly and even indirectly ( I will also base it off of the explanation they give in Episode 6 ) . It will be tough, but i will suceed. Tier 1 Noein shall be a thing !
 
The professor in Episode 6 also said that the difference between each dimension is infinite ( Supported by Sub & Dub . And Lacryma is said explicitly to be above all dimensions ) . There are an infinite number of dimensions. That sounds like High 1-B & an infinitely layered Creation to me, and an 1-A Noein to ne.
 
There seems to be an active batch release of Noein available at ***************, if anybody is interested.

Anyway, I have read through all of the above posts now, but have some trouble reaching a conclusion, given lack of information.

The suggested changes to High 1-B and 1-A need considerable verification in any case, and as Kaltias mentioned, being casually above a 2-A or High 2-A, does not make a character infinitely higher.
 
More staff input would be appreciated in any case. Perhaps I should highlight this thread for a while.
 
I will look into that.

I see...

I know. That is why i am debating for it. The Multiverse is infinite , La'cryma is above it. Haruka can exist in an higher-dimension such as that easily . So she scales to High 2-A . But now ... I am tired. I will reply once i get up tomorrow.
 
Given that 2nd finds difficult to find screenshots, I can take them now that I know where to find the subbed version. I won't be able to do it for now though. You'll have to wait after I come back from school.
 
i can give you some scans from Noeim and "Cuantum Mechanic" theory from Ramifications of the UNiverse:http://imgur.com/a/NLJf5


but, Dimensions in Noein are UNiverses, i dont remember that is Explicit that are Higer and Lower Spatial Dimension, i need to re-watch the series :I
 
Remember to show scans, links, and/or episode numbers for where you got the explanations from before requesting upgrades in that large quote.
 
Alright, so High 1-B/1-A is total bunk, but we know there are infinite universes. Does anyone have the scans or scenes of the characters that supposedly transcend these infinite universes?
 
Well it would appear that since La-Cryma is above and beyond all dimensions (Which we now know to be Universes) it would have to be At least High 2-A
 
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